How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[jeezusisacasual]

I understand the point you are making, but expecting the tank, and ONLY the tank, to dedicate hours of out-of-game time studying dungeon layouts isn't the answer either. Tank difficulty, knowledge, and skill expression should come from mechanics and masterful execution of affixes, not in overcoming the horrific community itself.

I agree that the community is trash in most instances but i am expecting everyone who is picking a class to play understand the ins and outs of not only the dungeon or encounter but for the class and spec they are playing. The goal should be to always be climbing the steps as a way to improve, no sports player just gives up or becomes so timid from anxiety from criticism and i expect most people to look at their own personal skill in that same way. I myself literally stop playing after KSM and pick a new tank every season 2 weeks before it launches to learn the in and outs of that class and generally learn the routes as i go basis.

I am not afraid to fail and i expect to pick myself up as i have since i was a small child playing sports and how i work to out pace those i work with. Its okay to lose but its better to understand why you lost and correct it which i think alot of the wow populace never played sports in the slightest and give up or are afraid of failure its literally life to always face adversity.

[Gorsameth]

I was about to suggest this as a possible fix. FFXIV does set routes for their dungeons, and the experience is more or less stress-free, while having a very healthy population of tank players.

Players who push high-end keys aren't the target of this forum post, it is wider pool of players who only enter dungeons to run their M+ weekly quota or obtain a specific BiS piece of gear at the lowest key possible for ease of farming. Reducing the amount of out-of-game knowledge required to run a dungeon would reduce the tank anxiety, and newer tanks who are learning can focus on adapting to dungeon specific mechanics and weekly affixes (instead of being expected to know every single detail of dungeon run prior to having even ran the instance even once).

It will also have a trickle down effect for players of other roles, as "easier" dungeons will prevent/reduce the average amount of failed keys a PUG player will encounter, thus reducing toxicity across the board. Once players realize that runs that start poorly are easier to salvage, more will be inclined to stay instead of bitching and quitting on the spot.

Of course, timers may need to be adjusted, but I believe it would be a fair tradeoff for a reduction in community toxicity and the stigma that has been thrusted onto aspiring tanks.

exactly. I've played a tank through basically every expansion and as a casual M+ player the 'required' route knowledge is 100% the reason why I will basically never pug a M+. Its an entire extra barrier of entry that did not exist in past, and it has made the lack of tanks, that has been an issue since the dawn of time, only worse.

[enigma77]

People will always flock to dps.

The only real solution for M+ is to do what's already the case in raids. Increase the amount of dps per tank. If you turn M+ into a 7 man thing, you'd have 1 tank, 1 healer and 5 dps. You'd have to decrease unavoidable dmg intake to allow 1 healer to still be fine with 2 additional players taking damage though.

When you think about it, it's crazy that in M+ you need 1 tank for every 3 dps players, while in raiding its 1 tank for every 7 dps players, or if you do 30 man even more dps.

[Gramlen]

I've always wanted to try and relearn to tank with my Warrior, especially in M+ and other similar content. The community has been, and is still, a bigger gatekeeper than anything Blizzard could create with their content. It won't change until people grow up.

[Sialina]

Routes are definitely not really that big of an issue. PuGs however MAKE them a huge issue. Especially at 15s (which are by far the worst keys to PuG) but even lower, you have people who immediately throw abuse to the tank the moment you don't do the exact route they think is the best.

That is very true. Something that hasn't really been mentioned is how much self confidence you need as a tank on top of thick skin. If you do the same pull in 15 pugs, 12 might be perfectly happy, 1 could yell at you for "over pulling" and "pulling too fast" even though healer mana good and noone is in danger, and another 2 might yell at you for pulling too little, all with the same route. This is something many DPS don't understand, their tank might already have been told she is pulling too fast AND too slow just doing the same thing all day.
This is also a reason why many tanks are sort of rude to DPS.
There are legit reasons, like someone tells you they are new or someone has some other issue that prevents them from going at a normal PuG pace, but generally noone says anything until "TANK, WHY DID YOU PULL 2 PACKS?!?!?!?!"

[Swnem]

That is very true. Something that hasn't really been mentioned is how much self confidence you need as a tank on top of thick skin. If you do the same pull in 15 pugs, 12 might be perfectly happy, 1 could yell at you for "over pulling" and "pulling too fast" even though healer mana good and noone is in danger, and another 2 might yell at you for pulling too little, all with the same route. This is something many DPS don't understand, their tank might already have been told she is pulling too fast AND too slow just doing the same thing all day.
This is also a reason why many tanks are sort of rude to DPS.
There are legit reasons, like someone tells you they are new or someone has some other issue that prevents them from going at a normal PuG pace, but generally noone says anything until "TANK, WHY DID YOU PULL 2 PACKS?!?!?!?!"

This reminds me of a run i was tanking where the DPS wanted me to pull slower and the healer wanted me to pull faster.
I was like: "There is no pleasing this group". The healer assorted dominance and said it doesn't matter what the DPS want. They don't get a vote. xD

Though of course, more common is for the DPS to pull something extra.
I am fairly confident myself cause i do mythic+ at least 2 evenings a week with a static group and i know what to do and can do all the fail there while we learn. Coming into the mythic+ scene half through the season is prohibitive though. No one has the patience anymore.
Yesterday i pugged as a DPS and there was a DH tank on Junkyard that clearly didn't know what he was doing (he was heading to the boss where the air unit was until i said we cannot go that way). Healer left before we fought the first boss. Or well... faked a dc? I dunno. Whatever the case they ruined the key, probably cause they couldn't be arsed with the tank. Alas, it's the way of the mythic+ pug. Getting your own stable group makes the content really fun and mostly stress free.
Ah also... i do up to 20+ with my usual group, but i never dare pugging anything over 15/16. It also amazes me how much classism there is in lower keys. Like people want the meta tanks, healers and dps when knowing the dungeon matters much more than the choice of class.

Anyways... rotating back to the topic, as i said before. Giving Tanks and healers more damage will make more people play them (also increases their carrying capability). I know i myself feel more motivated to play them when i can do big damage with them as well and ensure a smoother run. Like DK atm is extremely fun to me. Holy paladin was fun in previous seasons, now it's more shaman (i don't play priest but they seem to be pretty good and got PI).

[NatePsy]

A bigger push toward stamping out toxic attitude in dungeons would be a great start. From personal experience I've observed newer tanks have healers/dps assert themselves and force the tank to pull faster by pulling mobs for him/her, it's a shitty experience for a new player.

[cuafpr]

in-game route guides (no add-on) or single flow instances much like FF14 for M+ is about the only thing. I stopped tanking due to being expected to 100% know every instance's best pull route/order. Or they could make M+ require 98% trash clears so basically any route works cause you have to clear everything anyway no skipping pulls.

[Biomega]

in-game route guides (no add-on) or single flow instances much like FF14 for M+ is about the only thing. I stopped tanking due to being expected to 100% know every instance's best pull route/order. Or they could make M+ require 98% trash clears so basically any route works cause you have to clear everything anyway no skipping pulls.

It's a bit of a tricky situation.

Flexible routing adds a dimension of skill, which is great at the top end. But it also adds a requirement (and expectation) of skill, which sucks at the low end. I'm not sure how to solve this without screwing either side over.

[tomten]

I've been a long time WoW player until about 1.5 years ago. How does the new expansion, Dragonflight, solve the shortage of tanks and healers problems?

Also I know Mythic+ is a popular feature, but I absolutely hate it because it's so difficult to get tanks for a group. Is Mythic+ in DF the same as before? This also leads to the issue of tanks and healers shortage.

First you need to understand that mythic+ is not meant for pugs, you can do it but it's almost always gonna be a bad experience.
And when the community put 75% pressure on the tanks and the remaining 25% on healers and always blame them for anything even their own fuckups? What do you expect? It also requires knowing what every mob do, what % packs have, what routes to take, what to change depending on affixs, having to lead and instruct the group in what to execute etc etc while also having to play my own class.

I tank a lot, usually several m+ per day with different people, almost never in a pug. We might take a dps pug, sure, but its super rare that I go into a full pug outside the initial first 1-2 weeks patch/tiers.
There's absolutely no incentive for me to do so and only drawbacks and headache for doing it. Why would i?
This is how every tank and healer I know thinks and feels.

[Plehnard]

It would help in Pugs if the cool down for mass taunt would be reset with every new engagement.
The worst thing with stranger DDs is when they tend to do their thing before the mobs are even bound.
Happens quite often that I charge into a group and see, basically in slow motion, how fireballs, arrows and lightning slowly creep by just to impact before I do.

And disable the movement keys of all hunters when they draw aggro! Can't count how bloody often those c*nts tend to run away from me (the tank) like headless chicken because they drew aggro from one mob. Most often with the result that they draw additional groups in the process. Best thing is when those idiots jump backwards in a direction that wasn't cleared yet.

[tomten]

Ah also... i do up to 20+ with my usual group, but i never dare pugging anything over 15/16. It also amazes me how much classism there is in lower keys. Like people want the meta tanks, healers and dps when knowing the dungeon matters much more than the choice of class.

Pugging 13-16s are the very, absolutely by far most toxic segment to pug m+ in...
If you go above or below its generally much more pleasant, i've pugged a handful of 20-22s this season and while you're expected to know exactly what to do, sure, but its just less toxic if mistakes happen and never had an abandon or trolled key in that range, maybe anecdotal, dunno.

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And disable the movement keys of all hunters when they draw aggro! Can't count how bloody often those c*nts tend to run away from me (the tank) like headless chicken because they drew aggro from one mob. Most often with the result that they draw additional groups in the process. Best thing is when those idiots jump backwards in a direction that wasn't cleared yet.

Or you know... Learn them to actually feign death xD

[Kalisandra]

So many people here are completely wrong. Of course it is blizzards fault as well, THEY design M+ and THEY have the ability to put in systems to help you.

- Implement tools so other people in your group can suggest routing like a proper ping system or a different way to show routing before the run starts. Not everyone wants to download X addons. If its there for everyone by design more people will use it and get accustomed to it. I too want to Tank sometimes but I absolutely cannot be bothered to learn so many routes. Its garbage design and blizzard does 0 to combat its issues.

That just adds an option for DPS to second-guess the tank. You can bet they'll not admit responsibility if a tank follows their route and it's wrong.

- The Healer meta in M+ is dealing damage. Most people do not want to deal dmg of like 50+% of the dungeon. Its garbage design and again in the hands of blizzard to solve.

This I agree with, but as long as m+ runs are on timers, and healers are able to do any damage at all, healers DPSing will be expected.

- M+ timers. As a DPS you have a lot less stress than Tanks and Healers from a M+ timer. If you fail as a Healer it is a wipe and the group might be dead. Its 100% your fault. Tank the same. Since the timer is so important, all the pressure is on them instead. If a DPS is suboptimal he still barely feels pressure. Again blizzards design fail with M+ timers.

This is a community thing - very often when DPS keep dying (which is a great way to not reach the timer) it's the DPS' fault for standing in crap and not kicking, etc., but they'll blame the healer and tank rather than man up and take responsibility for their mistake.

To be fair, I don't see a whole lot of this as a healer, but I avoid very low and very high keys. 8-15 seems fairly civilised, in general. OTOH, I don't tank, so if the DPS are whispering death threats to the tank I'll never know.

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I think tanking and healing is and always be a role that is not viable for most players. You can't learn to heal or tank by yourself, and you can't learn to heal or tank in a pug - so that limits the pool immensely.

I learned to heal by chain-running random BGs. It teaches you to heal in an incredibly hostile environment, where the other side is actively trying to kill you, and your team is actively trying to avoid being healed.

[pahbi]

I know this will never happen, but I would love to be able to fill group slots with AIs. AI tanks, AI healers or AI dps; whatever is needed.

[schwarzkopf]

I learned to heal by chain-running random BGs.

I can't speak to that, I never received healing in random BGs, but it certainly does NOT teach you to heal raids or dungeons (where tanks are healers are critical - and your party is expecting you to do so).

It also gives you no experience in healing tanks, and the different kind of tank healing you need to do.

It also gives you no experience in healing specific boss fights in dungeons and raids.

The issue is that in a dungeon - the healer and tank are both 100% responsible for the outcome, a dps is only 33% responsible.

Where you learned to heal was actually with a friendly raid group or dungeon group that let you learn.

[xero5141]

The only things that can really solve tanking are making tanking more fun/rewarding and an attitude adjustment for you toxic fucks in PUGs, no one wants to tank for a shit geared fire mage who pulls everything and stands in melee range to get cleaved and then cries about the tank.

[AlmightyGerkin]

The community is toxic. That's why tanks don't want to PuG your M+ keys.

Nothing Blizzard is going to do will fix that.

Literally this. If you make the tiniest slip up people get angry or don't go their way etc and it deters people away from tanking.

[Beet]

it doesnt, bcs it cant...that is 100% player driven problem



then play a tank/healer yourself...
you dont want to? well neither does shitloads of people, hence the shortage, its not a game issue its people issue...

Wow way to state the obvious. The issue is players can’t be changed. Blizz can do things to make tanking more popular however. Like later in the expansions with the bags given to tanks and healers as incentive. They had mounts that were rare and actually incentivized people to do it.

Another thing worth considering is just how tanking feels now compared to the past. Personally I enjoyed tanking way more in vanilla through MoP. I liked when threat mattered and staying alive was more down to your healer. That’s why I tanked in vanilla, tbc, WotLK, and tanked again in their classic versions. I however can’t stand tanking on live now. I think Cata was the last expansion I truly enjoyed it. So yeah there are things that can be done to possibly increase these numbers.

[Gramlen]

The issue is players can’t be changed. Blizz can do things to make tanking more popular however. Like later in the expansions with the bags given to tanks and healers as incentive. They had mounts that were rare and actually incentivized people to do it.

Blizzard can hand me bags and bags of gold, potions, mounts, flasks and gear all they want. It doesn't change anything but force people to endure the misery until they get what they want, and then the problem remains, only now with tanks and healers upset that they don't have anything left as an incentive anymore.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink; especially if the water's telling you to kill yourself when you near it.

[Itisamuh]

There is no way for the developers to solve that problem short of scrapping the role system completely because it is a player issue. Most people have no interest in dealing with the pressure those roles have put on them by other players or simply have no interest in the role itself. Tanks are expected to have already mastered the instance and know all the most efficient routes and move as quickly as possible. Both tanks and healers are expected to never ever make a mistake and get yelled at if they do since the consequences are higher. If people want more tanks and healers they should stop being pricks and expecting everything done as fast and easy as possible.