The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[casecase89]

patch. While in theory, emerald dream could be cool. However, the major threat there was solved. While there is the void flower thing there, I don't think there is enough there to make an expansion around. Maybe the end of DF could bring in the emerald dream as something like zereth mortis, timeless isle, etc, along with a raid. But then again, we've already been there. So... without the nightmare being a thing, I can hardly see it even being a patch unless blizz uses the plot device of the flower. Who knows. But certainly, without doubt, a patch.

[Pheraz]

Patch, please, please, patch and not expansion. Going to the Shadowlands should've been 1-2 patches in my opinion..

Absolutely. The SL theme was blown up until it was almost all hot air or weird themes. IMO SL should have been the Maw and that's it. They still could have somehow made their weird rescue the Kaldorei souls arc. Reducing the cool (even if it is not my thing) scourge / rotten flesh theme to "oooh it's all coming from maaaaldraaaxus!" was lame. Ardenweald is also weird, even if well excecuted.

Anyways, I think ED will be a patch (maybe the 2.) and they will make some "dragon X has gone mad" thing at the end. Like noszdormu going mad, going back and forth in time only seeing one possible solution for thread X (hello dr. strange) and decides to somehow put back galkarond back together. Sorry for not writing all that dragon names correctly.

[username993720]

No, it connects to it, nothing more. Just like Feralas does, or the Hinterlands, or Duskwood.

"Its forests were specifically molded by druids to be a reflection of the Emerald Dream – no more than an echo, but as close to the Dream as the real world could ever be."

No, their magic did not take them into Shadowlands, it took them part way. It wasn't until later with the expansion that they, as well in lore, could connect with the Shadowlands.

Okay. The Veil, then.

The Nightmare is based in lore as feeding on the dream, it'll linger there for a long time.

The two go together.

Because you literally went to the HEART of the Nightmare in a raid, to kill one of the biggest threats to the Emerald Dream. You weren't sent there to fight through it, or work through it, you were dumped right into the den of evil, and killed it.

Okay. And you believe that's it? There's nothing else to the Emerald Nightmare? Come on... think bigger.

According to lore, Thros is a world in between. They can reach the Nightmare, and they can reach Shadowlands, Emerald Dream/Nightmare is NOT connected to Shadowlands, except through Thros. I guess we can call Thros the cosmic version of the Twisting Nether.

Isn't Ardenweald interconnected to the Emerald Dream?

patch. While in theory, emerald dream could be cool. However, the major threat there was solved. While there is the void flower thing there, I don't think there is enough there to make an expansion around. Maybe the end of DF could bring in the emerald dream as something like zereth mortis, timeless isle, etc, along with a raid. But then again, we've already been there. So... without the nightmare being a thing, I can hardly see it even being a patch unless blizz uses the plot device of the flower. Who knows. But certainly, without doubt, a patch.

So, there couldn't be any other threats?

Absolutely. The SL theme was blown up until it was almost all hot air or weird themes. IMO SL should have been the Maw and that's it. They still could have somehow made their weird rescue the Kaldorei souls arc. Reducing the cool (even if it is not my thing) scourge / rotten flesh theme to "oooh it's all coming from maaaaldraaaxus!" was lame. Ardenweald is also weird, even if well excecuted.

I think the major downside was the stupid Sylvanas plot, not the zones.

[Iheartnathanos]

Weird that people object non-azerothian expansions, yet TBC was received very well.
.

Nah, it wasn't.

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Metzen_on_lore

I'm not saying no one liked it, it certainly wasn't my thing, but the draenei and sci-fi stuff was not well received at all at launch. The thing about WoW is, Azeroth is and always has been the main character, so when you leave it, it kinda sucks.

[Relapses]

Though they could make an expansion out of it, I think it'd feel kind of same-y going to ED after DF. Seems like a slam dunk for mid-expansion patch content. Throw some random corrupted dudes in there and then plant the seeds for whatever DF's big bad eventually ends up being. I like it.

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Nah, it wasn't.

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Metzen_on_lore

I'm not saying no one liked it, it certainly wasn't my thing, but the draenei and sci-fi stuff was not well received at all at launch. The thing about WoW is, Azeroth is and always has been the main character, so when you leave it, it kinda sucks.

Daily reminder that this exists: https://lorelol.ytmnd.com/

[Nymrohd]

Why do Emerald Dream and not do Plane of Life where Elune is? People realize the Emerald Dream storyline has been repeated three times already? We had it in Classic with Eranikus, we had it in the Stormrage novel, we had it again in Legion.
They could have done the Stormrage plot into an expansion. Add the events of the Me'dan comics there but without Med'an and we could have had three raid tiers, one defending the Heart of the Dream (the part in the novel where we save Ysera), one in Ruins of Ahn'qiraj vs Cho'gall as a middle tier and then one in the Rift of Aln.

They didn't. The plot has been repeated multiple times. Since then the idea of going into different planes has been introduced, we have every reason to believe Plane of Life will look much like the Emerald Dream, we know Elune is there, we have the plot line with Zereth Vitae, we have to wonder who the rest of the Pantheon of Life might be (is An'she there? Is the Earthmother different than Therazane or Azeroth herself).

[hulkgor]

I don't believe Xavius is what the Nightmare is all about. It feels too insignificant. And we still haven't really been to Thros, the Blighted Lands..

Technically, there's an BFA alliance questline related to saving Jaina that leads you to a scenario in Thros. So we've been there before, well, alliance players have.

[username993720]

Nah, it wasn't.

https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Metzen_on_lore

I'm not saying no one liked it, it certainly wasn't my thing, but the draenei and sci-fi stuff was not well received at all at launch. The thing about WoW is, Azeroth is and always has been the main character, so when you leave it, it kinda sucks.

Yet, spaceship demons were well received with Legion.

Why do Emerald Dream and not do Plane of Life where Elune is? People realize the Emerald Dream storyline has been repeated three times already? We had it in Classic with Eranikus, we had it in the Stormrage novel, we had it again in Legion.
They could have done the Stormrage plot into an expansion. Add the events of the Me'dan comics there but without Med'an and we could have had three raid tiers, one defending the Heart of the Dream (the part in the novel where we save Ysera), one in Ruins of Ahn'qiraj vs Cho'gall as a middle tier and then one in the Rift of Aln.

They didn't. The plot has been repeated multiple times. Since then the idea of going into different planes has been introduced, we have every reason to believe Plane of Life will look much like the Emerald Dream, we know Elune is there, we have the plot line with Zereth Vitae, we have to wonder who the rest of the Pantheon of Life might be (is An'she there? Is the Earthmother different than Therazane or Azeroth herself).

The Plane of Life is the Emerald Dream.

Technically, there's an BFA alliance questline related to saving Jaina that leads you to a scenario in Thros. So we've been there before, well, alliance players have.

Again, as much as you've been to the Shadowlands with that grey filter.

[Lahis]

Emerald Dream is either patch zone in some somewhat relevant expansion, be it Dragonflight or beyond, or one zone in Lifelands to mirror Ardenweald.

[Powerogue]

I agree on it fitting a patch. The Emerald Dream would be breathtaking, but there's only so much you can design with that "bright green and naturey" theme, even if it's a big zone with subzones like Argus (which would be perfect IMO)

Yes, we had Emerald Dream stuff in Legion, but that was 95% Emerald Nightmare and like 2 mini-zones, one at the end of the raid and one little pocket of the Emerald Dreamway for druids.

[The Stormbringer]

I mean, a lot of us considered Ny'alotha or The Black Empire to be expansion worthy, but Blizzard disagreed. This could happen here too...

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I agree on it fitting a patch. The Emerald Dream would be breathtaking, but there's only so much you can design with that "bright green and naturey" theme, even if it's a big zone with subzones like Argus (which would be perfect IMO)

Yes, we had Emerald Dream stuff in Legion, but that was 95% Emerald Nightmare and like 2 mini-zones, one at the end of the raid and one little pocket of the Emerald Dreamway for druids.

Just keep in mind there's many forms of nature, it's not all bright green and such. You can have endless fields of flowers, huge marshy swamps, deserts filled with sparse but durable vegetation, oceans brimming with life, and so on.

[Ielenia]

Dude. The Shadowlands was just a grey filter back in the day. You really think the Emerald Dream would be just a verdant forest? For once, if you base it on dreams, it can be an endless amount of things. If you base it on primordial landscapes, it can also have a variety of zones. Seems like you purposefully try to diminish it, like you usually do.

Except we had evidence of different afterlives, as evidenced by the Halls of Valor, and Helya's domain. As for the Emerald Dream, again, it's always been described as a mirror of Azeroth, except as one big lush forest.

[username993720]

I agree on it fitting a patch. The Emerald Dream would be breathtaking, but there's only so much you can design with that "bright green and naturey" theme, even if it's a big zone with subzones like Argus (which would be perfect IMO)

Who said it'd be all bright green and naturey? Was Shadowlands all grey and swirly?

I mean, a lot of us considered Ny'alotha or The Black Empire to be expansion worthy, but Blizzard disagreed. This could happen here too...

I don't buy it that it's the Black Empire, even though it matches the Chronicles art.

Except we had evidence of different afterlives, as evidenced by the Halls of Valor, and Helya's domain. As for the Emerald Dream, again, it's always been described as a mirror of Azeroth, except as one big lush forest.

No, you didn't have evidence of different afterlives, as Halls of Valor and Helheim aren't part of the Shadowlands. Besides, they represent the most common depiction of the afterlife: heaven and hell. But, that wasn't all what the Shadowlands were about, was it? We had more than just Bastion and the Maw.

The Emerald Dream was said to be a pristine version of Azeroth, one that is untouched by mortal hands. Now, primordial Azeroth, or Earth for that matter, wasn't just a forest, was it? There are other landscapes: sand dunes, snowy tundras, rocky plains, vast savannahs and so on.
Besides, a realm that is affected by a Nightmare state is more than just a natural place. It is a dream. And you know what dreams are? Many things, they can change to be whatever you can imagine. There can be horrific dreams, like the Nightmare; sexual dreams, like the *ahem* *ahem* new male Succubus model; there can be sad dreams; adventurous ones and so forth. So, saying the Emerald Dream has no potential outside of a verdant forest is shortsighted.

[Relapses]

The Emerald Dream was said to be a pristine version of Azeroth, one that is untouched by mortal hands. Now, primordial Azeroth, or Earth for that matter, wasn't just a forest, was it? There are other landscapes: sand dunes, snowy tundras, rocky plains, vast savannahs and so on.
Besides, a realm that is affected by a Nightmare state is more than just a natural place. It is a dream. And you know what dreams are? Many things, they can change to be whatever you can imagine. There can be horrific dreams, like the Nightmare; sexual dreams, like the *ahem* *ahem* new male Succubus model; there can be sad dreams; adventurous ones and so forth. So, saying the Emerald Dream has no potential outside of a verdant forest is shortsighted.

This is actually more of an argument in favor of it being patch content, imo. Same-but-different stuff in the past has really only worked for individual patches (see: Horrific Visions) and the allure of the same thing as Azeroth minus all the population would get kind of dull, quickly.

[username993720]

This is actually more of an argument in favor of it being patch content, imo. Same-but-different stuff in the past has really only worked for individual patches (see: Horrific Visions) and the allure of the same thing as Azeroth minus all the population would get kind of dull, quickly.

I think they can get wild with that place since dreams are basically endless.

[loras]

Considering Y'shaarj has pretty much stayed dead since the days of the Titans I think it's safe to say the other two won't be returning in the forseeable future. If we come across more powerful void entities it would likely be shards or echoes of the Void Lords themselves, like Dimensius for example. The Emerald Dream doesn't seem to exist within the material plane, perhaps it's located somewhere where the Void Lords can send their avatars off to. We know that cosmic forces sometimes invade another forces' realms, the Shadowlands have been invaded at least twice by the Void (Bastion) and the Light (Revendreth). The corruption of the Nightmare suddenly intensifying (and maybe turning purple) with an avatar of a Void Lord manifesting at its center would have some degree of dramatic effect while not straying terribly far from the established lore. You could even have void entities cross through the dream and into the material world for an added sense of urgency.

That's a really curious bit of reasoning right there.

Y'shaarj was killed by the full power of the titan of time, Aman'thul, who intervened because his minions could neither kill nor subdue the old god.
The others too had been defeated though, by the titanforged.

What exactly would make our way of killing comparable to Aman'thul's permanent kill as opposed to being more similar to the way the titanforged defeated the old gods?

We're still handling bear asses (or the equivalent thereof) regularly, as well as getting potentially beat up by random goons in dungeons (see Taza'vesh's Kul Tirans if you need a reminder), we're nothing close to gods, let alone titans.

And as you'll notice, those old gods defeated by the titanforged did in fact return. Now you can try and weasel out with a "but they didn't kill them!" but that begs the question: Why did they not kill them?
They had them in literal chains, demonstrably had the power to kill them (see the local reorigination devices present in the G'huun fight in example, or just the power of Thorim when killing the unkillable during Yogg-saron's fight), there is no good reason not to kill them if death actually stopped them.

And that's the whole thing, they literally told us time and time again that they do not even care about death because it is nothing to them; we may have even released them by killing them in the sense that they have now had the time to freely regenerate, or at least C'thun and Yogg-Saron.

N'zoth's case is more interesting since we destroyed his parallel dimension thing, but there was also quite an overt show of the lengths through which he went to get Xal'atath and even clearly wanted us to have it. I mean they can easily say that his plans backfired and thus he actually died, but it'd be even easier to write his return after the blatant foreshadowing.

And Y'shaarj is obviously the strange one here, since death at the hands of Aman'thul would almost certainly kill everything in the Warcraft universe (barring Sargeras); he can literally rip you from the timeline. But here's the thing: We know of Y'shaarj.
That means he has not been ripped from the timeline.
We also know that the cosmic forces exist outside of time.
We also know of a certain faction that was supposed to monitor the timeways neutrally yet has succumbed to outside influence (likely the void): The infinite dragonflight.
We also know that Nozdormu will be corrupted into Murozond.
And last but not least there is a as-yet oddly unrecognised trope to have eldritch horrors existing outside-of-time (see i.e. chrono-trigger, or warcraft's cosmic forces themselves).
Though there is also a simpler explanation: Destroying him in the physical universe allowed Y'shaarj to recuperate in the void and, at some point during the long time since his defeat, re-attempted his long journey through the great dark to slam into Azeroth once again as a meteor. Which may be exactly what the red star foreshadowing over Darkshore may be.

It's also curious that you do not seem to realise that the void, as a representation of entropy is literally the definition of a so called Xanatos' gambit (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p.../XanatosGambit), a.k.a. a force that will, regardless of the way his plans can possibly go, always win.
Now the joke is of course that so long as Warcraft goes on we will defy them, but it doesn't matter how long because eventually it will always die anyway and thus the void will always win. This also means that they can always return, they are literally undefeatable. We can only postpone the ineviteble until it no longer matters to us.

There is also one other aspect, and that is that the old gods may be more than just void creatures, as they readily employ plenty of other magic, primarily death magic in the form of plagues and "the curse of flesh", but also have no trouble subverting holy, fel (Xavius), nature (the emerald dream), order (see the many corrupted titanforged constructs) and perhaps even holy (we already know of the Naaru - void god interaction).
Which brings us to another trope that may explain the old gods better to you: Evil may have evil intentions, but in the process of pursueing them may create an evil greater than they can handle or intended.
Frankenstein is something of a classical take on this.
As such it may be interesting to note that the old gods may be more than just void, and that the void may not be entirely in control of them.

Anyways enough of the old-god lecture, point is that there is plenty to work with, certainly in relation to the emerald dream, and that there is nothing preventing either the void or the old gods from making an appearance.

[loras]

Pretty sure the Realms of Life are going to be the "Emerald Dream" expansion y'all are asking for. The Emerald Dream (the TRUE Dream where Elune resides at) would be more so a patch. So far, we've seen part of the Dream, and saw its "heart" tho we don't know if that's the heart of the Dream entire (even then, could just be 1 layer of the heart), or just the Azeroth bound part of the Dream.

Regardless, whetever the Dream as an area may be, expect it to be like Ardenweald AKA a zone.

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@loras

You said a lot of stuff while also saying nothing fundamentally. The Old Gods are "dead". It only means "nothing" to them cause their essences can still remain for some time, as was the case with Y'shaarj and the Sha + his Heart (which was still beating despite being dead), Yogg'Saron and Ulduar during 7.0, etc, not to mention their actual selves are simply sent back to the Void anyways. Death is a non-factor to beings of magical/celestial origin. The light, beings of order, etc follow very similar rules.

You didn't even read any of it, did you?

[Triceron]

The problem isn't the theme or the setting.

The problem is the team has lack of resources to create sufficient content to make the setting feel worth-while.

Such things like Shadowlands (or any expansion for that matter) feeling stretched out is usually because of content being stretched thin and them not having resources to maneuver to expand on new content, since they also have to be gearing towards the next expansion as well.

Cataclysm, WoD, BFA, Shadowlands could have all done with some extra love.

Cata was supposed to have War of the Ancients and Abyssal Maw raids. There was plenty cut here.
WoD was completely revamped from the original Mongrel Horde idea, and they cut out the entire Shattrath raid, Faralohn, and the Ogre Isles
Shadowlands was rumored to have its story completely revamped 6 months before release. The rumors of Thros raid would have been welcome.

[Ielenia]

No, you didn't have evidence of different afterlives, as Halls of Valor and Helheim aren't part of the Shadowlands.

Helheim is literally described as separate from the realm of the living, and where souls of "unworthy" vrykul go. As far as we knew at the time, that is one afterlife. Valhalla is literally described as where the souls of the worthy vrykul go. Again, as far as we knew at the time, that is another afterlife.

You're trying to assert knowledge you couldn't have at the time.

The Emerald Dream was said to be a pristine version of Azeroth, one that is untouched by mortal hands. Now, primordial Azeroth, or Earth for that matter, wasn't just a forest, was it? There are other landscapes: sand dunes, snowy tundras, rocky plains, vast savannahs and so on.

No, it doesn't:
"[The Emerald Dream] is the verdant realm of the Dragon Aspect Ysera."
"the Dream represents the spring and summer of the cycle of life"
"In this world of untamed nature, druids gain insight and oneness with the Great Cycle"
And more.

Besides, a realm that is affected by a Nightmare state is more than just a natural place. It is a dream.

It's not a dream in its literal sense. It's just the name. Just like the Emerald Dream is not a dream of literal emeralds.

[VinceVega]

Oh please not... this will be just shadowlands in green again...

Stay. on. azeroth... please...

And if they ever do it ONLY make it like mechagon. An sidestory with no consequence. I am a bit filled with cosmic stuff for now.