Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Venziir]

So they killed her? Elves are just as killable as humans, so a volcano would kill her right?

I assume she did that to save the people who were fleeing in some way to protect them from the exploding volcano and died to save the lives of others?

So she's dead? They are moving on to a new protagonist?

Yes they killed her, since she’s not important to the rest of the story nor the movies….

[Triceron]

This is again an instance of you saying filler is required

I never considered the Southlander's story to be filler. I think I've been clear to make a separate case to say Bronwyn and Theo's storyline could be kept relevent, just compressed to be more focused on the main plot points.

The Watchtower having to crumble by Arondir's doing and trapping the Orcs is what I consider to be filler, as well as the first two episodes establishing the Elves being at the Watchtower and patrolling the villages. I think those aren't necessary to the plot, because Arondir himself doesn't have a direct connection to the Mt. Doom event.

The Watchtower being a setting that they took refuge in and having Theo see the statue could still work as part of the Southlander arc. If you actually pay attention to the greater plot, everything is happening around Theo . The main Southlander plot centers around Theo's actions, since he is the one who finds the hilt, the one who the Orcs in the Tunnels are looking for, the one who inadvertently leads the Orcs to the Watchtower, the one who sees the Statue at the watchtower, the one who gives up the hilt to Adar.

My observation and opinion is that Arondir isn't necessary to tell Theo's story.

We saw the effects of the plan of Sauron. Trenches and tunnels dug. A key hidden by generations of once servants. A tower with a hidden purpose. It explained all that is needed.

If all that could literally be explained in the moment that Traitor dude turned the key, then really we don't need to spend the past 5 episodes establishing those things through most of Arondir's arc. You literally summed this all up in the 3 minute montage leading up to Mt. Doom's eruption.

The trenches and tunnels and the sword being hidden were literally the only thing established prior to the explosion. The tower having a hidden purpose and the sword being a key and the 'effects of the plan of Sauron' is only revealed by those last moments leading to the eruption. I'd argue that most of it is still left unexplained, though we still have 2 episodes left.

I'll give you that the Statue at the Watchtower was a cool hint.

[rhorle]

As for the Watchtower being older than the Elves and having been repurposed by them, I don't remember this being set up in the plot at all. It's all implied with the vines and shit, but it doesn't actually explain if the Watchtower was built by the Elves or not or that they repurposed it.

So Elves just built in a weird tribute to Sauron? The implication you remember is the same thing you say you don't remember. Is it wrong to have speculated the elves built the tower? No. Did the show explain they didn't? Yes, through unfolding story. The trivia for Episode 5 further states it was built by Humans that served Morgoth in the Elder Days. Of course trivia isn't "the show" to nip that bud.

Of course they could just have trenches, tunnels, and what not "appear out of nowhere" for the sake of the story. Isn't that the same problem you and/or others have stated with Galadriel "teleporting" to the area? That things that happen on the show were not properly set up? We see the setup and story that leads to Mt. Doom. The only problem with that arc is that it wasn't the cliff hanger series finale. It's thunder is stolen a little bit by now having two more episodes of "story". What could be more climatic then a volcano?

[Triceron]

So Elves just built in a weird tribute to Sauron? The implication you remember is the same thing you say you don't remember. Is it wrong to have speculated the elves built the tower? No. Did the show explain they didn't? Yes, through unfolding story. The trivia for Episode 5 further states it was built by Humans that served Morgoth in the Elder Days. Of course trivia isn't "the show" to nip that bud.

To be fair, as a casual watcher of the show I didn't know the significance of the statue at the reveal and just thought it odd that the Elves would have a Sauron statue at the watchtower. I didn't make the connection that the watchtower was older than the Elves being there or that the human servants built it. So I can't say that I personally made that connection at the time of the reveal, not sure how obvious it may have been to others.

Of course they could just have trenches, tunnels, and what not "appear out of nowhere" for the sake of the story. Isn't that the same problem you and/or others have stated with Galadriel "teleporting" to the area? That things that happen on the show were not properly set up? We see the setup and story that leads to Mt. Doom. The only problem with that arc is that it wasn't the cliff hanger series finale. It's thunder is stolen a little bit by now having two more episodes of "story". What could be more climatic then a volcano?

I agree, it would be a perfect season finale cliffhanger. I'm not sure how they want to follow it up really, as I might not expect an entire 2 episodes dedicated to just the Elrond/Durin arc and the Harfoots. Will see.


As for the tunnels and trenches, again I would have no problems if they had a couple Orc PoV scenes just to establish the bad guys. I said so even as far back as ep.3 regarding this criticism of the Elves at the watchtower. They could just condense the arc to following Bronwyn/Theo, interspersed with some Orc scenes showing them making the tunnels and revealing Adar. I mean just keeping the entire prison tunnel subplot to just showing Adar enslaving the humans to make the tunnels and having an establishing shot show how vast the network of tunnels spans is more than enough to establish its importance. We'd still be under the impression that they're looking for the hilt. I don't think the Elves being captured and planning an escape was necessary to show the tunnel network. It could have been condensed.

[kenn9530]

Which information ? Which evidence ? Dribbles's level evidences ?

Already posted evidence of several aritcles all backing everything i have said, takes less than 5 mins to do some basic research to find the information so you dont post BS information.

[Specialka]

Already posted evidence of several aritcles all backing everything i have said, takes less than 5 mins to do some basic research to find the information so you dont post BS information.

You make the claim, you back it up. And I have yet to see you post reliable and serious data.

[Koriani]

Already posted evidence of several aritcles all backing everything i have said, takes less than 5 mins to do some basic research to find the information so you dont post BS information.

Not that this matters to you - because it never does.

But a five second google search already provides, and answers, this exact question without even having to click on any webpages. "How many books did Tolkien sell before the movies." Is a question listed twice in the google-search before you need to click on anything.

Yes, you are correct, Tolkien wrote to others about his books not taking off - AT FIRST. But once the 60s hit, it became a cultural phenomenon. And in the 50 years between publication and 1999 it sold 100 million copies - even if it was a 'slow start'.

Before the movies were made, The Lord of the Rings was the most-read novel of the 20th century. It sold over 100 million copies before the movies were made.

MOST READ NOVEL OF THE 20th CENTURY!

In addition there's a whole page of stats about this:

https://wordsrated.com/lord-of-the-rings-stats/

Which includes statements such as:

"The Lord of the Rings was voted book of the 20th century by Waterstones customers in the UK" - That was BEFORE the movies, 20th century ended in 1999.
"The Lord of the Rings series is one of the best-selling book series of all time having sold approximately 150 million books around the world."
"It was also named the nation’s best-loved novel by the BBC in their “The Big Read” poll of the British public"

Again - BEST SELLING BOOK SERIES OF ALL TIME. If 50 million, as you Kenn, claims is post the movies - then math says 100 million before the movies. That's how math works. And look, several sites here are saying 100 million before the first movie.

But sure, keep telling yourself that Tolkien meant nothing to the world until Peter Jackson. I just hope the people in this thread get that real world truth matters not at all to you and just ignore you. Keep claiming that the MOST READ BOOK OF THE ENTIRE CENTURY "was nothing at all" before the movies. And keep sounding like an idiot - that's your right.

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You make the claim, you back it up. And I have yet to see you post reliable and serious data.

He won't - he never does. Just give up trying to argue, even with actual posted stats, against this guy. It never works. It never has.

[Veggie50]

So after rewatching this episode, I think I've come to the conclusion that the entire Elf Watchtower and Arondir parts could be omitted completely, and the story would still work.

Arondir seems to have no real lasting ties to the main plot whatsoever. The show wants to present him as a main character, but he's got no real ties to anything related to the main plot. Everything would still happen if it were literally an abandoned watchtower that the Humans sought refuge in. Even his interactions with Adar were merely a means to an end, with most of Adar's characterization really shining with Galadriel's interrogation more than anything we got out of Arondir's encounter.

I don't have anything against Arondir's character or the Elves being in the Southlands, but in retrospect of what we've seen now, it all seems like Peter Jackson's Tauriel and Radagast filler in the Hobbit. Like, just adding characters to fill time and space who don't really contribute to the main plot. Like, what does Arondir really contribute other than being given a cool moment at the watchtower which doesn't really phase the Orc attack on the village at all.

If they cut out the entire Southland Elves and just focused on the Human arc, we could have saved an episode and a half.

Well… since you explicitely ask why it makes sense to include arondir…

1) audience needs a recognizable viewpoint character

2) elven perspective illustrates the position/history of the southlands

3) distrust between races gets shown

4) an elven character is more suited to juxtapose adar to

As for reasons not to include him:

1) tricerons attention span cant handle it.

[Triceron]

Well… since you explicitely ask why it makes sense to include arondir…

1) audience needs a recognizable viewpoint character

2) elven perspective illustrates the position/history of the southlands

3) distrust between races gets shown

4) an elven character is more suited to juxtapose adar to

I never argued that it doesn't make sense to include him, I argue that it's not necessary for the main plot of these arcs culminating in the eruption of Mt. Doom.

1) He's a new character, there's nothing to recognize because he's completely unfamiliar to the franchise
2) Already got this with Galadriel's arc through Halbrand pointing out the map and route of the Orcs
3) This is not really played up after the first couple eps. Heck, the Southlanders are in awe of Galadriel's presence even.
4) We have Galadriel for that. Her scene with Adar was a fantastic moment in the show. Plenty of juxtaposition between them.

Why would any of this be necessary? They literally have Galadriel in the Southlands by ep 6 and it's not like there needed to be an established Elven presence there to make sense of that happening.

[Veggie50]

Why would any of this be necessary? They literally have Galadriel in the Southlands by ep 6 and it's not like there needed to be an established Elven presence there to make sense of that happening.

1) He's a new character, there's nothing to recognize because he's completely unfamiliar to the franchise
2) Already got this with Galadriel's arc through Halbrand pointing out the map and route of the Orcs
3) This is not really played up after the first couple eps. Heck, the Southlanders are in awe of Galadriel's presence even.
4) We have Galadriel for that. Her scene with Adar was a fantastic moment in the show. Plenty of juxtaposition between them.

Yes, pointing at maps is an amazing tool to really make your audience feel what’s going on.

I am just happy you are not involved with the show… it would be the trainwreck some people here believe the show already is.

[Triceron]

Yes, pointing at maps is an amazing tool to really make your audience feel what’s going on.

Why would you need an Elven perspective to reveal the history of the Southlands? The Humans in the area already illustrated that quite well, like the Traitor dude talking to Theo about Sauron's return. Did you need Arondir holding your hand through the plot to figure that out?

[Orby]

Nerd of the Rings is actually quite positive and awesome to watch, none of this "woke agenda" bullshit. Are the other ones similiar to that?

Besides that, I also watch "Heavy Spoilers" and "Emergency Awesome" which also are on the fair spectrum of reviews, aswell as "New Rockstars" although I think they didn't put out a video about every episode yet.

Yea, you'd find them very much in the same vain. Same more critical than others but not critical in a toxic way. Broken Sword is very much similar to Nerd of the Rings, but British lol.

Daniel Greene is a fantasy booktuber who covers a lot of fantasy news in books, gaming and TV and well as other goofy stuff

Hello Future Me (his second channel I had linked) usually on his main channel is a video essayist of books, usually around 'how to write' type essays, from mental health writing or world building, stuff like that, his second channel I linked is mostly down to breakdowns of TV shows and other stuff, he's currently going through Rings of Power and House of the Dragon on there.

Don't watch Knights Watch though, they are very right leaning conservatives, and their complaints are very nit picky and constantly go on about 'woke agendas' and 'SJW's ruining our shows', while constantly repeating how bad the writing is, Imagine Angry Joe but 5 times worse lol. I am only watching them so I can understand what they are crying about. you can really tell when people on here wathc their channel becuase they repeat what they say nearly verbatim as if its their opinion :P

[Veggie50]

Why would you need an Elven perspective to reveal the history of the Southlands? The Humans in the area already illustrated that quite well, like the Traitor dude talking to Theo about Sauron's return. Did you need Arondir holding your hand through the plot to figure that out?

Ah yes… tell don’t show, a famous lesson.

[Triceron]

Ah yes… tell don’t show, a famous lesson.

I don't see you flipping your shit over how they handled Halbrand's backstory and motivation.

[Romanthony]

I cant believe the sure, Stupidity, of the last Episode. I mean sure, you can defend the show all you want, sure you can point out "Well its not breaking the lroe, its changing it"
Sure you ccan say what ever you want about the show.

But the end scene is stupid, Mount Doom erupting and Volconic ash washes over our heroes, who just shrug it off. because they very next Episode. Shows Galderial, as "Little dusty" Despite the fact this Ash is like 1500 F hot, I mean its the EXACT same thing that happened to Pompeii Im sorry but noone is walking away from that specially someone in full metal armour

[Veggie50]

I don't see you flipping your shit over how they handled Halbrand's backstory and motivation.

We don’t know jack shit about Halbrand at this point. Specifically because they chose to only tell, not show. Im curious to see how it develops, his origins are bound to be dark. I have him pegged for a nazgul myself.

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I cant believe the sure, Stupidity, of the last Episode. I mean sure, you can defend the show all you want, sure you can point out "Well its not breaking the lroe, its changing it"
Sure you ccan say what ever you want about the show.

But the end scene is stupid, Mount Doom erupting and Volconic ash washes over our heroes, who just shrug it off. because they very next Episode. Shows Galderial, as "Little dusty" Despite the fact this Ash is like 1500 F hot, I mean its the EXACT same thing that happened to Pompeii Im sorry but noone is walking away from that specially someone in full metal armour

Im curious how they’ll handle that yea.. perhaps this will be the first instance they show galadriel as a sorceress.

[Lady Atia]

We don’t know jack shit about Halbrand at this point. Specifically because they chose to only tell, not show. Im curious to see how it develops, his origins are bound to be dark. I have him pegged for a nazgul myself.

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Im curious how they’ll handle that yea.. perhaps this will be the first instance they show galadriel as a sorceress.

Halbrand is Sauron.

[Triceron]

We don’t know jack shit about Halbrand at this point. Specifically because they chose to only tell, not show. Im curious to see how it develops, his origins are bound to be dark. I have him pegged for a nazgul myself.

It's too bad you think less of the show because they didn't show Halbrand's backstory. Maybe you'll start enjoying it when they finally reveal his backstory to you with pictures instead of words.

[DarkAmbient]

I cant believe the sure, Stupidity, of the last Episode. I mean sure, you can defend the show all you want, sure you can point out "Well its not breaking the lroe, its changing it"
Sure you ccan say what ever you want about the show.

But the end scene is stupid, Mount Doom erupting and Volconic ash washes over our heroes, who just shrug it off. because they very next Episode. Shows Galderial, as "Little dusty" Despite the fact this Ash is like 1500 F hot, I mean its the EXACT same thing that happened to Pompeii Im sorry but noone is walking away from that specially someone in full metal armour

Yeah, I'm hoping the reason they all survive is going to make sense and won't be a major facepalm moment. It won't be anything Galadriel did because she just stood there. The only person present who might feasibly have the power to save them somehow could be Totally-Not-Sauron, but then why would he save them? Unless he really has been trying to turn a new leaf.

[Syegfryed]

Yes they killed her, since she’s not important to the rest of the story nor the movies….

tbf, they are not following the story anyway, neither is canon to the movies, they can kill her and follow someone else, it would be the same shit