Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Azadina]

Appeasement would be letting them just have ukraine. Like europe did before ww2 with the sudetenland and, eventually, the rest of czech. Misusing words that badly just waves your ignorance on a flagpole.

I completely failed to come up with a dictionary result, that would confirm the term explicitly means territorial concessions, and entire countries at that. You must be much wiser, and able to quote a dictionary saying that?

I seemed to find that it as a matter of fact can mean more than simply territorial concessions, such as material or political. Now, if one has every right to ask for say, 100 billion in damages caused, is it appeasement to forgo that, in order to not anger the hostile party any longer (thus hoping to avoid conflict)?

Oh, clearly not. It's all of Ukraine or nothing, right?

[Canpinter]

How dose anyone plan to realistically enforce any form of reparations on Russia?

[Santti]

How dose anyone plan to realistically enforce any form of reparations on Russia?

I'm guessing that it would basically come down to harsh sanctions (the like we have implemented right now), that are not lifted unless reparations are paid.

I don't think Russia is ever going to be made to pay any kind of reparations for this, though.

[Barzotti]

How dose anyone plan to realistically enforce any form of reparations on Russia?

Seize their assets abroad to fund a reparations plan, I guess.

[Iphie]

Seize their assets abroad to fund a reparations plan, I guess.

While not a bad idea it has some repercussions, and maybe unintended effects from other countries. (Basically, if we do it why can't others do it?)

That's not to say we shouldn't if it can be done fully legal and in accordance with international laws.

[Fuiking]

Sieze all dutch assets and use that to pay reparations to Ukraine? For a tax paradise for russian murderers you should bleed.

[zEmini]

Russia needs to disband their entire military. No more navy and esp nukes. Only a defensive force much like Japan had after WWII. Only then should the rest of the world consider helping that shit hole rebuild.

As far as paying back Ukraine, if they are sanctioned into oblivion that would be impossible.

[Saradain]

Russia needs to disband their entire military. No more navy and esp nukes. Only a defensive force much like Japan had after WWII. Only then should the rest of the world consider helping that shit hole rebuild.

As far as paying back Ukraine, if they are sanctioned into oblivion that would be impossible.

That's why you seize all russian assets abroad and forcibly use them for rebuilding Ukraine.

And as a cherry on top - increase all fees for russian visas (if they should even ever let to travel abroad) and visibly note that a part of those fees is donated straight to Ukraine - as a little reminder to russians for their folly, for all eternity.

Russia will not stop warmongering before they are beaten to a bloodied pulp and permanently made incapable of mounting a threat.

A morale crushing defeat.

[Kralljin]

Russia will not stop warmongering before they are beaten to a bloodied pulp and permanently made incapable of mounting a threat.

A morale crushing defeat.

If you wanna do what the Allies did to Germany in WW2, then you frankly can't stop at the Ukrainian Russian Border.

Because that's what you are effectively suggesting.

[zealo]

If you wanna do what the Allies did to Germany in WW2, then you frankly can't stop at the Ukrainian Russian Border.

Because that's what you are effectively suggesting.

You don't even need that, just keep attrition going on the Russians for their soviet stocks.

They're squandering a materials inheritance from the soviet union that they're in no position to actually replace themselves, it will take the Russian military decades to rebuild itself, if it even can in any relevant time frame.

[Saradain]

If you wanna do what the Allies did to Germany in WW2, then you frankly can't stop at the Ukrainian Russian Border.

Because that's what you are effectively suggesting.

I'm confident some very long-lasting sanctions and keeping the russians in their little shithole for decades to come does something beneficial for the world.

Russians were conditioned to be obedient little slaves who do not complain at the lashing of the whip coming their way. It can be done again. Depressing passivity.

[Nymrohd]

While not a bad idea it has some repercussions, and maybe unintended effects from other countries. (Basically, if we do it why can't others do it?)

That's not to say we shouldn't if it can be done fully legal and in accordance with international laws.

If an international court rules on reparations and as long as local courts do not intervene, a fund could be set up and order for frozen assets to be seized in pretty much the same way any individual nation can seize assets of a foreign national at the order of his country's court (again as long as the local courts comply). It is ANYTHING but simple but it is possible.

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I'm confident some very long-lasting sanctions and keeping the russians in their little shithole for decades to come does something beneficial for the world.

Russians were conditioned to be obedient little slaves who do not complain at the lashing of the whip coming their way. It can be done again. Depressing passivity.

Part of what helps that conditioning is the constant narrative of national greatness repeated by multiple governments over time. The illusion of national "pride" (which imo is ALWAYS an illusion) is what keeps people obedient (together with the not so subtle threat of force by the state and both despair and guilt by forcing people to take part in corruption).

[The Stormbringer]

Only way out of this that doesn't end in a north korea style frozen war is an actual settlement now, their "official annexation" means that politically in Russia Ukraine would be "occupying" parts of Russia after it has liberated it's country from them, they've painted themselves into a corner for what just pulling back would mean domestically.

They could always just say the truth: that they fucking lied. There was no annexation. It was a hoax to try and throw off their enemies.

[zealo]

US Embassy in Prague offering an aircraft carrier to the Czechs

After all, their new territory Kralovec will need a navy.

[Kralljin]

I'm confident some very long-lasting sanctions and keeping the russians in their little shithole for decades to come does something beneficial for the world.

...because the countries that are currently not sanctioning Russia (such as China or India) would join in on isolating Russia for...reasons?

I don't think that the North Korean model works on a nation that is much bigger and actually has resources other nations are interested in.

[Saradain]

...because the countries that are currently not sanctioning Russia (such as China or India) would join in on isolating Russia for...reasons?

I don't think that the North Korean model works on a nation that is much bigger and actually has resources other nations are interested in.

If russians are content to only visit China or India (or other actual terrorist states), so be it. Anywhere else, a russian passport means they are turned away.

China and India are probably not gonna risk themselves by offering Russia the sanctioned goods that they so, so direly need to sustain themselves. I don't see russians doing much tourism when their terrorist nazi state is starving from their own decisions.

[Gabriel]

Because, my friend, they're not getting of "scot-free", that's an illusion, however you were talking about paying for lives lost and that's something that has no place here.

Reparations, perhaps, but even then it'll be difficult and breed resentment. To which you'll say "who cares?", I care, because I don't want a re-run in the foreseeable future and I don't think you are willing to understand this.

I'm afraid you are the one that doesn't understand this thing right now. The way to make sure russia never does this again is not to reconcile with them, but to so utterly break the russian spirit and country that they can't try it again even if they wanted to.

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That is not what appeasement is.

You realize that if the conditions for endign the war are TOO steep, they will never stop. The key is to find the line where stopping the fight is (slightly) preferrable to dying.

Imposing a 100 billion fine and calling it a day is indeed a good way to make sure the next generation will be willing to fight to beat their percieved slavers. Considering that generation did not cause this conflict, they would not be unjustified either.

Do you see the problem? Nobody wants Russia to just be forgiven, but full reparations are not a wise course.

The conditions for ending the war are that the russian invaders either die or surrender, and after Ukraine has liberated all their territories the sanctions stay in place until the russian people actually display willingness to unfuck their country by let's say... hanging Putin and the rest of the government from the Kremlin wall, we'll revisit the issue of sanctions and maybe giving visas to them again.

[Kralljin]

If russians are content to only visit China or India (or other actual terrorist states), so be it. Anywhere else, a russian passport means they are turned away.

I doubt that's a huge factor considering most russians are too poor to travel anway.

China and India are probably not gonna risk themselves by offering Russia the sanctioned goods that they so, so direly need to sustain themselves. I don't see russians doing much tourism when their terrorist nazi state is starving from their own decisions.

I can absolutely see China selling Russia anything they want once the war is over and another goverment is in place.

China cares about China, them getting more influence in Russia while also possibly enabling Russia to remain a nuisance for the west is very much within their interest.

[Saradain]

I doubt that's a huge factor considering most russians are too poor to travel anway.

I can absolutely see China selling Russia anything they want once the war is over and another goverment is in place.

China cares about China, them getting more influence in Russia while also possibly enabling Russia to remain a nuisance for the west is very much within their interest.

I am more certain China seeks to add Russia as their new province. That doesn't have to mean annexation, but simply having Russia as such a pariah that China is their only hope. Which means Russia gets ripped off on everything they ever would try to sell again. And China would love nothing more but to get near-free resources.

After all, there is no crime in "not playing with that one kid at the sandbox" rhetoric. Russia dreamed of enslaving everyone, now they get to taste their own medicine. We simply should not recognize Russia as a sovereign state and treat it that way. Might sound bit like a power fantasy but forgive me - There is a certain way of thinking about Russia when your own grandfather figure had to deal with raping-pillaging-murdering russians within finnish borders

[Iphie]

I'm afraid you are the one that doesn't understand this thing right now. The way to make sure russia never does this again is not to reconcile with them, but to so utterly break the russian spirit and country that they can't try it again even if they wanted to.

Who said anything about reconciliation? Again with the putting words in my mouth. Don't ever make the mistake of confusing the position of "as long as they stay within their own borders and the sanctions stay I don't give a flying fuck about them" with appeasement or reconciliation because I don't want to grind them in a fine paste and make musical instruments from their bones.

The sanctions do their work, russia cannot rebuild so, again, who is talking about reconciliation? The only thing is afterwards a new treaty will be needed, and for that to be a possibility putin needs to go, if you call that appeasement or reconciliation then I suggest you look up the definitions of those words.