Mythic+ Updates in Dragonflight - Seasonal Rotation, Rewards Scale Up to +20

[Ashana Darkmoon]

They're really not going to be happy until raiding is dead, are they.

Could they at least change the design of M+ so it can be approached in different ways successfully, or with different party combos, or something?

How are you getting this?

Raids literally have unique items you can't get anywhere else in addition to having a larger ilevel gap than before lol

[Tentim]

In case you didnt know the bolded part is where you outed yourself. The barrier to mythic for AOTC hc raiders isnt skill its 20 people. Being in a mythic guild does not make you a better player then anyone in a hc guild.

I know that sucks to hear for your type of person but its the reality

We are talking about mythic plus no? Why would you believe I was talking about heroic raiding?

[Stormdash]

How are you getting this?

Raids literally have unique items you can't get anywhere else in addition to having a larger ilevel gap than before lol

Because now people want to do M+ non stop to get the gear that turns raids into a face roll rather than progress through the raids to gear out through the raids. Less overall time spent in and on the raids.

Yeah, raids have some unique items... that people want to go back and get to optimize themselves even though they already generally outlevel it.

[Tentim]

Because now people want to do M+ non stop to get the gear that turns raids into a face roll rather than progress through the raids to gear out through the raids. Less overall time spent in and on the raids.

Yeah, raids have some unique items... that people want to go back and get to optimize themselves even though they already generally outlevel it.

That's how wow works though. It was only really in mop the trend of gearing through raid difficulties took off. Until then you always just went to dungeons then raids.

The system proposed just let's you do the same just dungeons to mythic if you have the ability.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Because now people want to do M+ non stop to get the gear that turns raids into a face roll rather than progress through the raids to gear out through the raids. Less overall time spent in and on the raids.

Yeah, raids have some unique items... that people want to go back and get to optimize themselves even though they already generally outlevel it.

But how is this different than now? Raiding rewards are better comparitively (9 ilvl gap) and sets and there are bis unique items which will probably be insanely powerful

[Relapses]

But how is this different than now? Raiding rewards are better comparitively (9 ilvl gap) and sets and there are bis unique items which will probably be insanely powerful

That 9 item level gap is a bit of a misnomer since the only item at 430 is (I believe) a special Hunter bow. Everything else caps at 424. Compared to S4 where raiders can catalyze a bunch of 311 gear to get around a 4-5 item level gap between them and M+ers, I think the average gap between raiders and M+ers in DF S1 will be about 2, maybe 3 item levels tops. Still enough to make raiding an incentive but not enough to make it feel mandatory.

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The system proposed just let's you do the same just dungeons to mythic if you have the ability.

Gear scaling to +20s and the additional Tier of VP upgrades is quite literally the only thing M+ers have been asking for since S1 of SL. It's so, so fucking nice that they're finally adding it. These changes flipped my attitude towards DF S1 completely because the previously datamined changed looked...pretty grim.

The usual doom n gloom "raiding is dead" crew is here but I think it harkens back to the question of whether M+ and raiding should be symbiotic. This system seems to suggest Blizzard wants the relationship to be symbiotic since they're leaning further into M+ as its own progression path (something I didn't think they'd do). I think the best way to quell all of the hostility between the different segments of the playerbase would be to make separate gear for M+ and raiding (like the PvP system we have now).

[Ashana Darkmoon]

That 9 item level gap is a bit of a misnomer since the only item at 430 is (I believe) a special Hunter bow. Everything else caps at 424. Compared to S4 where raiders can catalyze a bunch of 311 gear to get around a 4-5 item level gap between them and M+ers, I think the average gap between raiders and M+ers in DF S1 will be about 2, maybe 3 item levels tops. Still enough to make raiding an incentive but not enough to make it feel mandatory..

True unless those items end up being incredibly important since you can't get them (something like the raid trinket equivalent). That type of stuff (like trinkets or the jailer wpn etc) end up being worth a lot more than a few ilvls.

Just a comparison, the priest Anduin ring is better than any other ring regardless of ilvl, same with how trinkets inevitably work with some classes.

[Nymrohd]

Raids literally have unique items you can't get anywhere else

I mean, so do dungeons. Dungeon trinkets have often been BiS for several specs since M+ was introduced.

[Ibiza177]

Rip, same level of reward with 5 more levels of difficulty to go through, so far only mediocre changes, specially for the casual crew, if you were barely doing 15's with ur buddies, get ready to get disappointed when you try out buffed 20s, you might not even get there.. I don't understand tho, who asked for this?

Why do you need to do 20s though? Just do your 15s if that's what your group can do. Why do they need to balance it so EVERYONE can do it, that makes no sense either.

[Relapses]

Why do you need to do 20s though? Just do your 15s if that's what your group can do. Why do they need to balance it so EVERYONE can do it, that makes no sense either.

It will be a bit of a system shock for players who get KSM and never push higher. It'll be nice for those of us who've traditionally pushed higher but I think it'll be a bit of an awakening especially for people clearing 20s in S4 SL because of how undertuned everything is right now.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It will be a bit of a system shock for players who get KSM and never push higher. It'll be nice for those of us who've traditionally pushed higher but I think it'll be a bit of an awakening especially for people clearing 20s in S4 SL because of how undertuned everything is right now.

Yeah I think there's going to be a massive backlash

[Tatakau]

Jesus that was boring to read, got knows what it'd be like playing.

[Toppy]

They can try all they want to combat the stress of coming into mythic+ late, so long as they keep poorly designing these dungeons with skips then it'll remain a problem.

Its genuinly bad design, the way the dungeons are made. They KNOW people will do what they can to skip trash to the point that skipping becomes the "actual" way of doing things. It doesnt add anything but a cumbersome hurdle. Blizz should be doing everything they can to create a set path since if they dont, players will, to the detriment of, well, players.

[Final Verdict]

DF will flop, like BFA and SL due to continous marginalisation of casual majority by increased progression barriers. neoliberal gamedesign of exclusivity instead of inclusive accessibility.

majority wont ever +20. so the majoritys progress will be blocked earlier than ever before.

BUT Y DO FILTHY CASULZ NEED GEAR FOR CONTENT THEY DONT DO? y need high level players gear of content they already did?

both for the same reason - to progress further. though gear doesnt equate to skill, it elevates it. for everyone. it doenst hurt anyone if my mom grinded titanforged mythic ilvl via WQ...

DS will flop* for more, but also the same reasons since BFA, but the most fatal still is Blizzards ignorance on their playerbase (understood as casual players) demands, as ilvl is endgame progression, on which the (silent) majority will be severely limited if not excluded.
in this scenario borrowed power feels almost like welfare (as it guaranteed power progression by simple activities).

*ofc the initial honey-moon phase everyone and my mom will be awed about the new zones etc., but the hype will wear off quickly (like SL) and exclusively try-hards will remain (another unsub reason for late casuals, as those try-hard pugs just dont click).

[Toppy]

DF will flop, like BFA and SL due to continous marginalisation of casual majority by increased progression barriers. neoliberal gamedesign of exclusivity instead of inclusive accessibility.

majority wont ever +20. so the majoritys progress will be blocked earlier than ever before.

BUT Y DO FILTHY CASULZ NEED GEAR FOR CONTENT THEY DONT DO? y need high level players gear of content they already did?

both for the same reason - to progress further. though gear doesnt equate to skill, it elevates it. for everyone. it doenst hurt anyone if my mom grinded titanforged mythic ilvl via WQ...

DS will flop* for more, but also the same reasons since BFA, but the most fatal still is Blizzards ignorance on their playerbase (understood as casual players) demands, as ilvl is endgame progression, on which the (silent) majority will be severely limited if not excluded.
in this scenario borrowed power feels almost like welfare (as it guaranteed power progression by simple activities).

*ofc the initial honey-moon phase everyone and my mom will be awed about the new zones etc., but the hype will wear off quickly (like SL) and exclusively try-hards will remain (another unsub reason for late casuals, as those try-hard pugs just dont click).

Didnt they also put crafting firmly in "Only for raiders" mode to with the changes? Like you need raid drops to make the raid gear, so a casual player can never make anything high ilvl.

Likewise, they took gear rewards out of the world. Putting more value on raiding and mythic+.

DF really is a "Fuck you casuals" expansion. And the worst part is, that mentality hurts EVERYONE as the more barriers you put infront of them, the more barriers you're putting infront of new or late players who WANT to take part in raiding and mythic+ but cant due to the gigantic barriers to entry that go up so fast with these inflated ilvls and lack of alternate gear options.

[trapmaster]

RIP M+ :c /10char

Oh well, WotLK Classic is out and absolutely bustling with players!

I'm enjoying wotlk classic.. It has been so long that i finally nolife to it over shadowlands. Been enjoying crafting professions/raidings/alts heroic clearing plus raiding. I don't think i'll ever look back to dragonflight in the future. It has NO HOPE.

[cLax0n]

DF Highest ilvl from m+ is 421 and from mythic raid it's 430. 9 ilvl difference.

SL Highest ilvl from m+ is 304 and from mythic raid it's 311. 7 ilvl difference.

And sorry, but saying You don't do 20s, you don't need good gear, that's just plain elitist gatekeeping. Everyone wants to progress, get better gear, kill stuff more quickly, have fun. The gear works everywhere, not just dungeon..

It doesn't affect you if i get solid gear slowly, months after raiders got theirs... and you could also get teleports, keystone hero, easier access to groups in future and prestige from clearing harder content... but no, that's not enough, clearly it's needed to remove even a small chance to get good gear from non 5% players, just so people at top can feed their ego, great..

Except, raids like Sanctum of Domination have had BiS items for Rogues/Hunters, and Sepulcher of the First Ones have had items like Gavel for plate DPS. Items that Blizzard has already stated should truly be higher ilvl because of the huge value their unique effects bring. For example, a 311 iLvl Gavel of the First Arbiter is worth way more than 311 iLvl. The items at the cap of ilvl in dragonflight are items that have unique effects and now their iLvl has been adjusted (increased) to better indicate how valuable they are.

[Ibiza177]

DF will flop, like BFA and SL due to continous marginalisation of casual majority by increased progression barriers. neoliberal gamedesign of exclusivity instead of inclusive accessibility.

majority wont ever +20. so the majoritys progress will be blocked earlier than ever before.

BUT Y DO FILTHY CASULZ NEED GEAR FOR CONTENT THEY DONT DO? y need high level players gear of content they already did?

both for the same reason - to progress further. though gear doesnt equate to skill, it elevates it. for everyone. it doenst hurt anyone if my mom grinded titanforged mythic ilvl via WQ...

DS will flop* for more, but also the same reasons since BFA, but the most fatal still is Blizzards ignorance on their playerbase (understood as casual players) demands, as ilvl is endgame progression, on which the (silent) majority will be severely limited if not excluded.
in this scenario borrowed power feels almost like welfare (as it guaranteed power progression by simple activities).

*ofc the initial honey-moon phase everyone and my mom will be awed about the new zones etc., but the hype will wear off quickly (like SL) and exclusively try-hards will remain (another unsub reason for late casuals, as those try-hard pugs just dont click).

So your saying it's going to flop because they are making it harder to gear to max ilvl? Doubtful that's the reason but if it is its only because people expect to get whatever is the best thing at the current time. Which is also laughable.
If your a CASUAL player than you DESERVE casual stuff.

[Zmagoslav]

1 step forward, 2 steps back...
this makes the DF dilemma for me a lot easier; I can just skip it.

[Coldkil]

How are you getting this?

Raids literally have unique items you can't get anywhere else in addition to having a larger ilevel gap than before lol

Exactly. If anything the changes made hc raiding way more rewarding in comparison. To me people just fail to realize that if you really want to be competitive, you have to do both, as it's always been the case.

I complained about m+being way more convenient and fast to gear up before mythic raids, this solves everything in my eyes.

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Except, raids like Sanctum of Domination have had BiS items for Rogues/Hunters, and Sepulcher of the First Ones have had items like Gavel for plate DPS. Items that Blizzard has already stated should truly be higher ilvl because of the huge value their unique effects bring. For example, a 311 iLvl Gavel of the First Arbiter is worth way more than 311 iLvl. The items at the cap of ilvl in dragonflight are items that have unique effects and now their iLvl has been adjusted (increased) to better indicate how valuable they are.

They have them only in s4, because they nerfed the shit out of stuff m+ gear due to the dungeon pool changing, while also buffing and natural scaling up of raid gear with higher ilvl.

Also: good luck getting chains or scars mythic while stuff like EoD 304 is pretty much comparable. Too many people just look at BiS lists and don't even think about how easy/hard is actually to get that kind of gear.

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People won't just keep running into the wall on +16 - +19, they'll just quit, if they can't get the best gear. If you honestly think that this change is better for the game as whole, that's as elitist, as it gets...

I don't see why this is a problem. Why would blizzard make so people who clearly don't want to pur effort in the game get the best rewards?

PS: people quit anyway. Most players once they get the last reward just stop playing. You're just delaying what happens anyway. There's a reason why boosts are so popular.

In s3 of SL around 30% of players did a +10. People already stop doing things way before it's meant to be, and catering to those people doesn't serve the game in the long run.