M+ Rewards in Season 1 of Dragonflight now scale to +20s

[SoulSoBreezy]

Always be plugging. :-)

But yeah. I'm happy with these changes because most of the stuff that I was concerned about were address. The extra Tier of upgrades thru VP is sick as fuck. This is going to be weird for anybody not currently clearing 20s, though.

Additionally, I think that a lot of people even currently clearing 20s are going to be in for a surprise because 20s at the moment are pretty easy (comparatively speaking). I think this might be better for longterm health, though this has a possibility of burning out raiders as this kind of makes clearing M+ weekly even more mandatory.

Yeah I'm sure some folks aren't going to be fond of feeling dependent on M+ for side gearing. It's a situation where raiders need M+ more than M+ needs raids but that's at the mythic level. Heroic guilds like mine will probably just struggle a bit more because the gearing won't be as easy.

[Nzx]

If getting equivalent gear from M+ means people don't want to heroic raid, then the problem isn't that M+ gear rewards are "too good", it's that Heroic isn't enjoyable enough.

This is supposed to be a fucking videogame, not an egalitarian workplace. Trying to make everything the same is sucking the life out of it.

[Relapses]

Yeah I'm sure some folks aren't going to be fond of feeling dependent on M+ for side gearing. It's a situation where raiders need M+ more than M+ needs raids but that's at the mythic level. Heroic guilds like mine will probably just struggle a bit more because the gearing won't be as easy.

It'll be interesting to see if this'll cause friction at the Heroic level since there's going to be a bigger push to actually hit the KSH level this time. Before it was mostly bragging rights (and portals, woo) but now that there rewards attached there's going to be incentive for groups which may have never been interested in anything above 15 to push outside of their comfort zones. Worse, it may even force some M+ only players who are comfortably doing 15s now to buck up and admit that maybe they shouldn't try to push past 15s.

Shitshow or not -- it'll be fun to see how it plays out regardless.

[Celement]

It'll be interesting to see if this'll cause friction at the Heroic level since there's going to be a bigger push to actually hit the KSH level this time. Before it was mostly bragging rights (and portals, woo) but now that there rewards attached there's going to be incentive for groups which may have never been interested in anything above 15 to push outside of their comfort zones. Worse, it may even force some M+ only players who are comfortably doing 15s now to buck up and admit that maybe they shouldn't try to push past 15s.

Shitshow or not -- it'll be fun to see how it plays out regardless.

I think there will be some but most mythic raiders I know pug a 20 already because the quality of players there tend to make it smoother then pugging a 15.

There will be the usual pain point that exists at the start of every season

[Mokuna]

It's a really poor choice from Blizzard but understandable from a demographic and cost of developpement pov.
Dungeons have a main flaw: the mechanics are simple and straight forward, that doesn't change from m0s to a +30 key, the low number of players doesn't allow space for interesting gameplay or any "epic" fight.

Blizzard understood that when removing 10 man heroic (old mythic) from the game, and now is doing a 180 by trying to push "hardcore" M+ when it is just infinitely scaling dull content, and invented the most boring esport ever where 2 teams using the same specs and routes fight against dungeon trash, that barely reaches 10k viewers live on a supposedly multi million players game when not offering in game drops.

The low entry barrier coupled to the top tier rewards is gonna make M+ the core of the game, why are you gonna bother with raiding and learning the strats of 10+ bosses when you can just bash the same dungeon you've done 50 times already with slightly higher scaling for better rewards ?

Raiding is what made this game successful and gutting it to turn the M+ minigame into the main game is gonna slowly but surely rot what's left of wow.

[Yarathir]

" The least amount of effort " ?

So running the same dungeons several day per weeks for several weeks is " the least amount of effort " ? What is wrong with you lol

But blizzard still nerfing instead of scaling raid incentives, bad way of fixing issues.

Stockholm Syndrome is what's wrong.

Anyway, for people who do this all with competent friends, they'll be fine.

The PUG players, though... well, have fun doing the mandatory amount of 18s 20s for your 3 weekly vault, lmao.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's a really poor choice from Blizzard but understandable from a demographic and cost of developpement pov.
Dungeons have a main flaw: the mechanics are simple and straight forward, that doesn't change from m0s to a +30 key, the low number of players doesn't allow space for interesting gameplay or any "epic" fight.

Blizzard understood that when removing 10 man heroic (old mythic) from the game, and now is doing a 180 by trying to push "hardcore" M+ when it is just infinitely scaling dull content, and invented the most boring esport ever where 2 teams using the same specs and routes fight against dungeon trash, that barely reaches 10k viewers live on a supposedly multi million players game when not offering in game drops.

The low entry barrier coupled to the top tier rewards is gonna make M+ the core of the game, why are you gonna bother with raiding and learning the strats of 10+ bosses when you can just bash the same dungeon you've done 50 times already with slightly higher scaling for better rewards ?

Raiding is what made this game successful and gutting it to turn the M+ minigame into the main game is gonna slowly but surely rot what's left of wow.

From the sounds of it they are making it more difficult, so 15s will be more like current 20s and DF 20s will be more like current 25. That's not going to be an easier gearing path for people, especially if you don't have a group of friends.

That said, the issue remains that the number of players who want epic boss fights that take 300 wipes over the course of a month is like the population of a small American town. Vanilla raiding became popular because there were no alternatives. Classic raiding is popular because it's very easy.

Brutally difficult raids and retail aren't good for anyone excer RWF

[enigma77]

Vanilla raiding became popular because there were no alternatives.

Less than 2% of the playerbase ever cleared Classic Naxx, so yeaaah.

It's clear to me that it's really mostly Blizzard who loves raiding.

Most players prefer M+.

[Xath]

So fucking sick of being forced to do M+ it isn't fun it's just a 10 with higher numbers no new mechanics to figure out. Just give it the pvp treatment and give it specific gear that is normal raid ilvl outside M+ but by far best inside M+

- - - Updated - - -

Less than 2% of the playerbase ever cleared Classic Naxx, so yeaaah.

It's clear to me that it's really mostly Blizzard who loves raiding.

Most players prefer M+.

How many cleared bwl or aq40 hmmmmm? Naxx came out after the expac had already been confirmed and I think the date might even have already been announced. A lot of people just stopped raiding and went and chilled til the expac.

[Indigenously Abled]

Well post-10/7 changes, pugging for max vault is gonna be a donkey show. I've enjoyed the drop-in, drop-out format of M+ (back half of this expansion anyway, I hadn't played WoW proper in an age prior to this) but now it's time to make some friends.

Should clarify I mean on alts. Full pugging 20+ and higher on live isn't that bad if your IO is right.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Well post-10/7 changes, pugging for max vault is gonna be a donkey show. I've enjoyed the drop-in, drop-out format of M+ (back half of this expansion anyway, I hadn't played WoW proper in an age prior to this) but now it's time to make some friends.

Should clarify I mean on alts. Full pugging 20+ and higher on live isn't that bad if your IO is right.

It's going to be a huge difference in a lot of ways and I don't think people have fully processed or thought out the ramifications.

[jeezusisacasual]

None of these changes will keep me playing past KSM regardless. I do not chase power or progression i pick a single goal and once reached i just leave the game and come back shortly before the next season to pick up a new " main " to keep the game interesting. Sure i could chase BIS or the great push but what is there since i do not care for bragging rights or prestige and if i can not pug my way to KSM it might be time to just say goodbye to WoW all together as i could i raid i just do not feel like muting people etc.

[SoulSoBreezy]

It'll be interesting to see if this'll cause friction at the Heroic level since there's going to be a bigger push to actually hit the KSH level this time. Before it was mostly bragging rights (and portals, woo) but now that there rewards attached there's going to be incentive for groups which may have never been interested in anything above 15 to push outside of their comfort zones. Worse, it may even force some M+ only players who are comfortably doing 15s now to buck up and admit that maybe they shouldn't try to push past 15s.

Shitshow or not -- it'll be fun to see how it plays out regardless.

I think we're going to see multiple stages of player behavior, shitshow being one of those stages.
What I see though, purely speculative, is that players will do 16s because it'll let them encroach on mythic gear from the vault, and I think they'll be able to get the "mythic" crafting reagent from there.
That's their path to at least getting decent gear. If I'm right - and I often am not - it'd be a pretty insidious/genius way of getting players to run side content if their skills have peaked.

[Aurora]

This is the kind of thing that would convince me not to return for Dragonflight.

I'm one of the many, many raider focused players who endure M+ in the game as a requirement to gear for the content I actually want to do. I don't enjoy it and wish it didn't feel compulsory.

I agree with the suggestion to just give it some PVP type stat that makes its gear irrelevant for raiding.

[Archy]

this is a terrible idea, many people prefer to play the game and not be told by the game to stop playing

It already does that. If gear is your chosen progress path doing 8 Mythic +15 a week is were you stop playing. You can't have a repeatable source of great gear in one content. It'll affect other types of content (this is sadly how a normal WoW player operates). So it's either one of the two options.

[jeezusisacasual]

This is the kind of thing that would convince me not to return for Dragonflight.

I'm one of the many, many raider focused players who endure M+ in the game as a requirement to gear for the content I actually want to do. I don't enjoy it and wish it didn't feel compulsory.

I agree with the suggestion to just give it some PVP type stat that makes its gear irrelevant for raiding.

The problem is guild leaders having these expectations on its members then the games actual fault unless you want the game to police what your guild leadership requirements? Those of us who despise raiding with a passion want a way to progress our toons as the game is not just a raiding simulator anymore since the people playing it have evolved over time, hell i pug KSM and then stop and do not even treat this game as a MMO.

[adamap]

This is an ok change which give some of M+ people to push into 15-20, but most of KSM people will probably stay at around 15 zone.
However, it is a big loss to heroic raiding people as of now they can do (easy and least effort as they claimed) 15 to gear up better for heroic raid but in DF, +20 wont be that easy for them (which is a good thing so they can stop QQ)

The thing is funny that heroic raiding people like to bark at the wrong tree (M+), they could ask Blizzard to make raid more fun (less mechanic orientated), less adds ...etc maybe have some way to get entry level mythic raid gear through valor like system.
Instead, they just like to complain m+ as if they can not benefit from it for raid (as they claim that doing a +15 each week is least effort)
Now they get what they want, no easy gear from M+ to help heroic raid

Imagine what a show would be when some heroic guild (even some tryhard mythic raiding) RL ask +20 done for all raiders, lol

[enigma77]

It already does that. If gear is your chosen progress path doing 8 Mythic +15 a week is were you stop playing. You can't have a repeatable source of great gear in one content. It'll affect other types of content (this is sadly how a normal WoW player operates). So it's either one of the two options.

Well somehow that didn't stop them in Legion and BFA.

Mythic + was better back then, in Shadowlands they ruined it.

If they can add these rare unique powerful items to raiding, they can add them to Mythic +.

[Relapses]

If they can add these rare unique powerful items to raiding, they can add them to Mythic +.

Agreed. But if they don't go this route it'd be nice to get a deterministic loot option (something similar to Dinars) for M+ as a middle ground.

[enigma77]

Agreed. But if they don't go this route it'd be nice to get a deterministic loot option (something similar to Dinars) for M+ as a middle ground.

I may be in the fringe minority here, but I specifically do want rare drops. It's fun to hunt down items, I LOVED titanforging.