Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

The only reason anyone is talking about skin tone, or micro-analyzing every scene that includes Galadriel, is because bigots can't help themselves but bring it up constantly. Most people don't care because it's such a superficial and irrational thing to throw a temper tantrum about. I'd be happy to not have to talk about it and not have to read wildly idiotic shit stretching across 10s of pages at a time. But we have people with 300+ posts to their name in this thread alone who claim to absolutely loathe the show and keep coming here to tell everyone about it. But what has it gotten them? The world goes on and Rings of Power is still the most-watched show on Amazon Prime and sits in the Nielsen Streaming top 3 since it debuted. Nobody cares but ya'll.

Life is too short to keep fighting ridiculous losing battles. Give it a rest already.

The main things I'm talking about are how they are massively fucking up canon elements of sil outside of the idiotic time compression such as the tragedy of Tar Miriel. Now I realize people like you and rhor have no clue about that and are only here to defend due to casting but it bugs those of us who have actually read Tolkien.

[downnola]

The main things I'm talking about are how they are massively fucking up canon elements of sil outside of the idiotic time compression such as the tragedy of Tar Miriel. Now I realize people like you and rhor have no clue about that and are only here to defend due to casting but it bugs those of us who have actually read Tolkien.

Are you this critical of the Jackson films? They were not 100% faithful to the books and the writers had to make the story more adaptable for the big screen. Christopher Tolkien hated the movies because he felt Jackson took the book and turned it into a Hollywood action movie for teenagers and left all of the beauty of the story out of it. The most important themes for Tolkien (his heavy references to Catholicism which I doubt you noticed because thematic elements are mostly ignored by people who can't picture a non-white elf) were overshadowed by the focus on the fighting rather than the actual journies and development of the characters themselves. Even some of the character's personalities (Boromir, for example) were changed for added drama.

Did any of that matter at the end of the day? No, because film adaptations of books are rarely fully faithful to everything in them. All that matters is if they're entertaining to watch and tell a good story. Middle Earth's second age spans thousands of years and has massive gaps in the lore that exists, so you have to take creative liberties if you want to fit all of that into a TV series and have some continuity between seasons and characters. I don't know why any of this is surprising to you. If you want a word-for-word retelling of a story with massive gaps then just read the books.

[Veggie50]

So, Celeborn is MIA, presumed dead.

I'm thinking this is the second adaptation that steals Glorfindels spotlight in favour of another elf xD

[s_bushido]

So, Celeborn is MIA, presumed dead.

99.99% sure they're going to have a tearful reunion at some point in a future season.

[Veggie50]

99.99% sure they're going to have a tearful reunion at some point in a future season.

I think that's a given, yea... Question is, how do they explain his absence/return.

[Syegfryed]

I think that's a given, yea... Question is, how do they explain his absence/return.

That assuming he showrunners will do one explanation, let alone a satisfactory one. More likely its some nonsense again.

I heard out there they will make his fate one of her brothers, since she does not to care about anyone but one of the 3

[Veggie50]

That assuming he showrunners will do one explanation, let alone a satisfactory one. More likely its some nonsense again.

I heard out there they will make his fate one of her brothers, since she does not to care about anyone but one of the 3

I'm not sure what you're saying. Ofc the first line is a dismissal per se, but the second?

I doubt they'll switch out her husband for her brother, this isn't GoT.

Glorfindel got resurrected by the valar for services rendered, I'm guessing that's what's gonna be the case with Celeborn.

[Orby]

Jackson's original trilogy gets a lot of props for its practical stuff, but those films literally wouldn't exist without the shit-load of CGI that went into them.

Sad reality is the films went more CGI as they went on too. Which is why Fellowship is my favourite of the three, far more practical effects. By the time Return of the King came around they crammed it full of CG, and understandably in some areas I guess.

[Syegfryed]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Ofc the first line is a dismissal per se, but the second?

I doubt they'll switch out her husband for her brother, this isn't GoT.

What i meant is they will use the plot of her brother Finrod for her husband, hence the switch out, Finrod didn't died by Sauron, he was captured for i don't know how long.

They will prob make this plot of the "captive elf" be Celeborn.

[Veggie50]

What i meant is they will use the plot of her brother Finrod for her husband, hence the switch out, Finrod didn't died by Sauron, he was captured for i don't know how long.

They will prob make this plot of the "captive elf" be Celeborn.

Very possible yes, that seems like a second plausible route.

Except Finrod did die in captivity I believe...

[s_bushido]

I think that's a given, yea... Question is, how do they explain his absence/return.

Since she said he was missing but not confirmed dead, my first thought was that he's been a POW for however long.

[Raelbo]

That statement is not even an argument in defense of anything. You are just using it to avoid actually showing what is incorrect about that statement because you cant. If you actually are going to claim that the statement is factually invalid then show it. Otherwise the only one pushing non sequitirs is you, because I actually posted the entire letter that you quoted from showing clearly what the man intended.

I never said your statement is factually invalid. I said it was a non sequitur. In other words your argument is logically invalid because what you are saying does not follow from the facts you are quoting.

Sure, you're able to point to the fact that only the two books were actually published. This is not a fact in dispute. I am telling you that what you want to pretend follows that from that fact, ie that he actively wanted his works to not ever be taken and used in the future by Amazon for a TV show, is completely unsubstantiated. The fact that his other works were never published tells us very little about what he would/would not have wanted done with them after his death.

So what is your point? Either you claim to know what the man wanted others to do with his story or you don't. Why are you arguing with me if you don't have anything to back it up?

Because in the absence of evidence either way, your argument fails. While it certainly wouldn't hurt, we don't need positive affirmation that Tolkien would have approved of this show to justify. We simply need to not have evidence that proves he would not have approved of it.

Whether you said it directly or not doesn't change the fact that it is implied that the existence of this show is justified based on what tolkien wrote in his letters, including the sentence that you explicitly quoted.

The existence of this show is justified by the fact that you have both people willing to make it and people willing to watch it without any legal impediment to doing so.

By quoting that sentence you therefore established that these letters are a reflection of his intent and when shown the entire sentence in context, now you claim that you weren't directly arguing against his actual wishes. So why use his words then if you don't agree with them?

Who says I don't agree with them? I am saying that I don't see anything in his letters which say what you want them to say: ie that Tolkien would have disapproved of this show. If anything I take from the letters that Tolkien would have been happy for others to pick up the proverbial torch and continue to expand on parts of his story.

I disagree. You can say it does but I can read perfectly fine and it is clear to me that he spent his life specifically writing a story that was intended to be treated as real history that is so old it forms its own mythology. That means a single continuity of events, characters, themes and so forth that flow in a single timeline from beginning to end. And it is that singular continuity of story, characters and events that he wanted to be respected.

I was talking about whether or not he would have wanted others to expand his story. You're talking about whether he would have wanted the integrity of his story respected. These are not mutually exclusive. Even if you want to argue that he didn't want someone to come along and butcher his work, that is not the same as saying he didn't want someone to come along and expand his work.

If you don't see that then fine, but his words to not speak to a 'multiverse' or 'alternate timelines" or 'alternate imaginings' of these events, which is what you get when others make up stories contradicting what he actually wrote and that includes the PJ films to a lesser degree.

So let's see:
1) Tolkien was not averse to iterating his own work in order to improve the integrity of his universe.
2) Tolkien was not averse to having others expand upon and fill in some of the blanks which he never got around to.

Now sure, there will always be the question of whether the people who try to do this get it right or not, but that's a very different proposition from saying that it should never have been attempted in the first place.

And I am glad you bring up PJ. Because I honestly believe that with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, he did about as good a job as was/is humanly possible in bringing that story to the screen. Sure, it's not without its flaws. But what great work (including the original books) isn't? What is absurd, however, is the rabid fans who like to shred these things from their armchairs, nitpicking at stuff that no reasonable human being should be taking issue with and then blowing it massively out of proportion.

And to be clear, I have no issue with people spotting things and pointing them out, or venturing opinions on how a scene might have been improved. What I do take exception to is when people allow the little things to detract from what really is a fantastic work of art.

No it isn't. Making a sword fight look good requires a fight choreographer and actors or stuntmen who are physically able to execute the choreography correctly. Case in point most Hong Kong martial arts combat is pure fantasy, but the basis for that goes back to Chinese theater where they used acrobatics to perform the fight choreography. So obviously making that kind of fantasy combat look good on screen and be believable requires skill and talent. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, developing all the various characteristics of Elven combat in terms of how they wielded their swords and how they fought is something I would have liked to see in this series. But that would actually require taking the idea seriously and hiring a fight choreographer and/or martial artist to come up with those weapons and techniques and then train the actors how to do them, which often does happen by the way in the choreography of video game trailers and other types of fiction and fantasy productions.

So...I talk about how making combat look realistic and making a fight look good are mutually exclusive. Your response is tell me I'm wrong and then wax lyrical about how choreography can make fights look good. Epic facepalm.

So I'll say it again. As an experienced martialist - someone who did fencing for 15 years, competed in literally hundreds of tournaments, with a box full of medals, including being a national champion, in addition to having done both Judo and Tae kwon do for several years each, I am telling you right now that what looks good on screen does not look anything like real combat. There is a reason why a sport like fencing gets very little television coverage, in favor of sports like WWE etc. Because unless you're specifically setting out to make the fight look good by doing a bunch of flashy shit that no one with any combat experience would, in their right mind, do in a real fight, it's going to look dull and boring.

So, if you have an issue with the fight choreography in this show, insisting that they try make it more "realistic" is only going to make things worse.

It is fight choreography, which takes skill in terms of making it look "real" to the audience, which is no different than what you see in films.

No. The skill is in making it look good, not real. The two are categorically not the same thing, and I don't think I have ever seen a fight scene which achieves both. I think my favourite swordfight of all time is Inigo Montoya dueling with Westley in the Princess Bride. But as a fencer I could point out 2-3 flaws per second with that fight, ranging from turning their backs on each other with silly spins, attacking each others' swords (instead of, you know, each other's bodies), lots of flashy waving of blades etc etc etc. A real duel would more likely be two opponents cautiously keeping distance trying to maneuver themselves into a position from which to attack effectively. And once the attack actually happens, it would be over in less than a second. Either the attacker would succeed and the defender's parry would be evaded, or the defender will parry and riposte instantly. Very rarely would it get to a counter riposte or counter-counter riposte.

But like I have already said. That just doesn't look very exciting on screen. Which is exactly why they don't try it.

[Flurryfang]

I kinda get why we have to wait 2 years to get next season. Its quite clear, that they know they lost this battle for the first season and that they have to create some space between the seasons, so season 2 can get a fresh chance.

Its also well needed. The show is confusing, unfocused and filled with "newbie" mistakes when it comes to story writing and filmmaking. I wonder if the rights for the show and pre-production cost so much, that they had to cut things lean when it came to actual production.

Cause it seems like the major problem in the show, is all about the production. The editing is all right, the CGI is not bad and the look of the show is quite good. But the show itself, when it was filmed and planned, is horrible. Like.... WHY ARE THERE 5 STORIES HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME??

It's a huge mistake to start out as big as they did and it just makes the entire story fail as it goes. And that is not something you can save in post-production.

I hope that they see, that they need a total rework of how they make the show and choose a brand new method, cause the current one is hell.

[Rennadrel]

Looking at the ratings slide for this show and how nobody is talking about it.......

The only people who are talking about it are those that are dunking on it for being the biggest waste of money ever. I honestly would be surprised if daddy Bezos allows this shitshow to continue for much longer before drastic changes are made. Maybe if he sacks the people who have been writing and producing this crap thus far, maybe the remaining seasons can be made into something salvageable. But it won't be at this point.

[Levelfive]

The only people who are talking about it are those that are dunking on it for being the biggest waste of money ever. I honestly would be surprised if daddy Bezos allows this shitshow to continue for much longer before drastic changes are made. Maybe if he sacks the people who have been writing and producing this crap thus far, maybe the remaining seasons can be made into something salvageable. But it won't be at this point.

Yeah I'm sure he's really sweating it.

From 10/5: "Amazon's The Lord of the Rings prequel series, set to run for five seasons, is already breaking viewership records"

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cultur...reaming-record

[Orby]

Looking at the ratings slide for this show and how nobody is talking about it.......

depends who you are watching, there are plenty of people talking about it, both in a constructive and outrage point of view. I use those two terms because I don't think anyone I am watching thinks the shows are the best of great. They tend to range from about 'just fine' to 'shit'. I personally fall into the 'its okay' area :P

[crusadernero]

I kinda get why we have to wait 2 years to get next season. Its quite clear, that they know they lost this battle for the first season and that they have to create some space between the seasons, so season 2 can get a fresh chance.

Its also well needed. The show is confusing, unfocused and filled with "newbie" mistakes when it comes to story writing and filmmaking. I wonder if the rights for the show and pre-production cost so much, that they had to cut things lean when it came to actual production.

Cause it seems like the major problem in the show, is all about the production. The editing is all right, the CGI is not bad and the look of the show is quite good. But the show itself, when it was filmed and planned, is horrible. Like.... WHY ARE THERE 5 STORIES HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME??

It's a huge mistake to start out as big as they did and it just makes the entire story fail as it goes. And that is not something you can save in post-production.

I hope that they see, that they need a total rework of how they make the show and choose a brand new method, cause the current one is hell.

I dont see any reasons why its bad that there is several storylines to follow already. Its nice. It builds up the show and makes the world feel more involved to whats happening. Everything that happens in every storyline is connected to eachother one way or another and in the end it will be brought together. Just like it was with GoT most of the seasons. Lots going on.

Look at house of dragons. Literally one storyline, nothing else. Family drama in the keep, thats it. NOthing else, just talks about whats going on out there. In shows like these, with huge fantasy worlds, its better with several storylines than one. Overall, after all seasons are done it should make more sense.

That said - This show could have been done so much better, especially the production, acting and how they desided to present the story. Swing and a miss tbh. Just like house of dragons lives off GoT, this show lives off LoTR.

- - - Updated - - -

depends who you are watching, there are plenty of people talking about it, both in a constructive and outrage point of view. I use those two terms because I don't think anyone I am watching thinks the shows are the best of great. They tend to range from about 'just fine' to 'shit'. I personally fall into the 'its okay' area :P

Think most people find the show OK. But, I also think people wanted it to be great. Its not.

[Gumble]

Yeah I'm sure he's really sweating it.

From 10/5: "Amazon's The Lord of the Rings prequel series, set to run for five seasons, is already breaking viewership records"

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cultur...reaming-record

Didn't read the article did you? They bent over backwards to say "see, our first few episodes had alot of viewers!"..... please ignore that we haven't provided real numbers or how its gone since the first episode....

They have moved the filming location because it costs too much, there have been reports of them cutting back the budget because the show isn't generating the response they hoped for, and the fan sites are all about House of the Dragon.

You can wager that Bezos is actually quite upset at how poorly his show is doing compared to HBO's show, especially given the massive price tag.


Season 2 is set to be delayed a long time, which gives them time to cancel it during the long break if they cannot find a way to fix it.

[Syegfryed]

I dont see any reasons why its bad that there is several storylines to follow already. Its nice. It builds up the show and makes the world feel more involved to whats happening. Everything that happens in every storyline is connected to eachother one way or another and in the end it will be brought together. Just like it was with GoT most of the seasons. Lots going on.

One thing the show does not is making you feel involved with the world with all those nonsenses and deus ex machinas happening all the time.

IT nice to have multiple storylines connected, but when you can pull it off, when it makes sense, none of this do and the connection lead to something even more garbage.

3 boats with 300 people, horses and supplies that arrived trough space time in the exact location in the exact moment in time to help a small shit village, like they knew exactly where they should go, like the people in the vilalge asked for help, its awful.

Look at house of dragons. Literally one storyline, nothing else. Family drama in the keep, thats it. NOthing else, just talks about whats going on out there. In shows like these, with huge fantasy worlds, its better with several storylines than one. Overall, after all seasons are done it should make more sense.

If one or several stories are better is debatable, but there is much more in HoD than just family drama, as you would notice with the war with the triarchy and all the games with the houses, since every move they do have great impact, yes it focus on the house of the dragon, but to say its nothing else is being disingenuous.

The series should not wait 6 seasons of 8 episodes to make sense.

That said - This show could have been done so much better, especially the production, acting and how they desided to present the story. Swing and a miss tbh. Just like house of dragons lives off GoT, this show lives off LoTR.

I didn't quite understand your last sentence, but the show could have been done better with actually decent writers that could make a story make sense and be good, that is foundation of the show and it failed so hard that from years people will talk about how bad this was.

Think most people find the show OK. But, I also think people wanted it to be great. Its not.

Show would be ok for a netflix low budget with another ip.

[Rennadrel]

Yeah I'm sure he's really sweating it.

From 10/5: "Amazon's The Lord of the Rings prequel series, set to run for five seasons, is already breaking viewership records"

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/cultur...reaming-record

If you actually trust what sycophant media and what Amazon says their numbers are, I've got a bridge to sell you. Streaming platforms are not beholden to actually be truthful about what their viewership numbers are. Amazon has tens of millions of Prime users, and we know that historically they've been struggling to get anywhere near the numbers that shows like GoT pulled at its peak. So if you actually believe what they say, then you really are a fool because there's no way this trash fan fiction is doing the numbers they claim they are.