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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolites View Post
    then you dont like the idea of m+, just the idea of dungeons...
    good news for you, you can find other people who dont like timers and finish m+ while COMPLETELY ignoring the timer... literaly right now, you can do that, no point of removing timer from it, which people actualy do like...

    and if you cant find people to do dungeon without timer? well, then i guess its just YOU who dont like it, so tough luck, adapt or move on
    You could argue there is no reason to make challenging raids, because you can make your own group and do it while having low item level to have it as hard as you want. Not to mention the fact that you are punished for ignoring the timer by depleting the key and getting less loot.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by BraveNewWorld View Post
    I'm doing my part to do the opposite of solving the problem unfortunately.

    I main bear, my spec is garbage in Shadowlands. And it's the only spec that has not gotten any attention so far in Alpha/Beta for Dragonflight. In addition to a terrible 2/4 tier set bonuses.

    I will not be playing my tank this expac and will just play a DPS and just chill.

    At the very least they could give the important roles a little bit more attention instead of giving it all to Hunters.
    Comeon, i will admit Bear isnt particularly FUN to play but they can tank pretty much anything without problems. Sure they wont be best at doing stuff but they can do it nonetheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChairmanKaga View Post
    This is the first time I have read a reasonable solution to this issue instead of just offering more tanks specs. As if all these DPS are holding out for mage tanking or something.
    I mean sure perhaps the DPS might come into groups a LITTLE faster but when there is no tanks available people will cry "why no tanks" anyways

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Lathspell View Post
    You could argue there is no reason to make challenging raids, because you can make your own group and do it while having low item level to have it as hard as you want. Not to mention the fact that you are punished for ignoring the timer by depleting the key and getting less loot.
    Yup, this is exactly my point, I say leave the timer and do the whole MOP style and give them mounts and titles, things I don't care about I want challenging content that I am not forced to rush though, if I am a Healer I hate having to DPS so I don't want to be punished for not DPSing when I am there to heal. I just want bosses with difficuly encounters that I don't have to worry about about a timer on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    As always i think the problem is not the shortage of tanks, but the players behavior towards them in pugs. Want more tanks? Be nice to them. Wait etc.

    Plenty of tanks but they do not pug as tanks.
    I love tanking specs like Blood / Guardian / Vengeance, but only use it solo or with friends and family so to speak

    My solution is to have a NPC tanking for pugs. Problem solved ^^
    oooo I quite like this idea.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by BB8 View Post
    6 person content could be an option. 4 dps 1 healer 1 tank
    I think that would start to negatively impact the healer pool which is normally the real delay for NA horde. Many buffs and other things would have to change to accommodate players outside of a party. Raids would need reformatting or healers would really get bored there. Seems like a lot of work to create some new problems and potentially solve none.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    As always i think the problem is not the shortage of tanks, but the players behavior towards them in pugs. Want more tanks? Be nice to them. Wait etc.

    Plenty of tanks but they do not pug as tanks.
    I love tanking specs like Blood / Guardian / Vengeance, but only use it solo or with friends and family so to speak

    My solution is to have a NPC tanking for pugs. Problem solved ^^
    Then people should report them and hope for the best if they have skin as thick as toilet paper. Alot of people just view you as an asset to get whatever goal they need done and nothing more, sure you are a human but at the end of the day why do they care? What reason or purpose does it serve? But this is the type of behavior they have fostered and will likely need a decade + to remove it and all its toxic elements along with an entire paradigm change in how hard content should be since that fosters toxicity.

    To get more people to tank they should make routes standard in that dungeons are linear in nature, this way no one gets upset when the most popular route is not selected.

    Allow for the mitigation mistakes from a tank to not be as detrimental as they can be currently. Some will say that this is something you learn as you " grow " up in the key levels but most people skip numerous key levels, they do not go Junkyard 1 to 2 to 3 etc they go Junkyard 3 to 7 to 13. This could also mean making the healer more required for the tank instead of themselves so it shifts atleast some of the blame away from themselves. I personally love being in charge of my own healing or damage reduction but i can see how daunting it would be for a newer tank to know when and how to use the various tools ontop of the other information they are expected to know.

    I expected more tanks to show up once tank damage got closer to DPS but that appears to be a big nothing burger but they could add more pressure for the DPS to perform correctly in the way of enrage timers on specific trash or M+ bosses etc. The game is at its best when your on the tip of your seat teetering on a failing run or a successful run which the DPS players need to be apart of.

  6. #326
    no one want to tank because A no incentive, same loot share with all, no reward or ey thanks for tank here we go extra tokens for you to save and buy X gear so you can tank better for other teams, all dps and healer blame you for everything (even if they stand on pools) you need to know to memorize the mythic path each week, then affix, plus gear... is not worth it, better dps shit on every one and just move on.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by schwank05 View Post
    Yes, this right here. I love the idea of M+, but the Timer is what kills it for me. If there was no Timer I would actually make an attempt to do M+.
    Honestly, if you aren't pushing high keys, the timer is barely ever a big deal. In casual level keys, if most of the group has a reasonable idea of what they're doing, you keep moving, and you don't wipe too much, you're gonna make the timer without trying. You don't even have to make crazy massive pulls or anything. And even then, a lot of people don't care. Plenty of people just want to get a completion in for their vault.
    "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."
    -Louis Brandeis

  8. #328
    At this stage, the problem lies with the players and not the product. The tanks and healers available to us now are all fun. It's not Blizzard's fault nobody wants to tank/heal for toxic players.

  9. #329
    Nothing. M+ being the meta has intensified the stress level of said roles, especially for tanks who are expected to know the routes perfectly. Look at Wrath Classic and the absurd amount of tanks there are. Wotlk-MoP was the golden age in terms of tank accessibility. Active mit wasn't overbearing and no M+ to worry about.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by pelos View Post
    no one want to tank because A no incentive, same loot share with all, no reward or ey thanks for tank here we go extra tokens for you to save and buy X gear so you can tank better for other teams, all dps and healer blame you for everything (even if they stand on pools) you need to know to memorize the mythic path each week, then affix, plus gear... is not worth it, better dps shit on every one and just move on.
    why are you exaggerating ? all dps and healer blame you for everything no they don't, just because it happened to you years back and few times doesn't mean it's constant

    you don't need to memorize the path each week, routes only matter in high M+
    I've done up to 18s this season and doin not so optimal routes

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    All people saying that tanking requires much much more than a DPS is probably doin shit dps and not utilizing their class at all aka suck at the game
    Last edited by dragonflight10; 2022-10-12 at 03:59 AM.

  11. #331
    I'm never going to tank M+ despite loving dungeon tanking because I simply cannot practice the dungeons without bricking the key on difficulties I enjoy, and the run goes wrong, key gets downgraded, and people get pissed off and lose their minds about it.
    It's not worth the investment.

    Saying people who don't want to memorize routes, when random chuds from LFG demand some sort of perfect route and treat you like utter crap over anything, are bad at the game is also why I'm not going to bother tanking. Why should I put the effort in for people like this? I'd rather go play another game.

    Let us select the difficulty and dungeon and maybe some of us will reconsider, because at least if I have to deal with some loser whose entire ego is based off mid-tier content in a 20 year old game, I can just walk back in without penalty and practice my route properly. I don't even care about timers. I care about my actual time being wasted. I did all 3 roles for Challenge Modes, but barely even want to work on my portals this season because of how obnoxious the whole thing is together.

  12. #332
    Would people be OK if tanks and healers were just rewarded better?

  13. #333
    I have never really tanked or healed pugs before. I see how tough people are when someone makes a mistake and frankly I have zero desire to be stressed when playing.

    I have healed raids and dungeons and tanked or off tanked in raids before.

    However only in groups of people I know.

    While I have been a DPS in Mythic+ a few times I really dislike the format so have not done it for years and would not even think about healing or tanking one.

    I honestly do not think Blizzard can solve the shortage. It would require players to be better for people trying to learn or even allowing of mistakes from people which I doubt will ever happen.

  14. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariktu View Post
    I have never really tanked or healed pugs before. I see how tough people are when someone makes a mistake and frankly I have zero desire to be stressed when playing.

    I have healed raids and dungeons and tanked or off tanked in raids before.

    However only in groups of people I know.

    While I have been a DPS in Mythic+ a few times I really dislike the format so have not done it for years and would not even think about healing or tanking one.

    I honestly do not think Blizzard can solve the shortage. It would require players to be better for people trying to learn or even allowing of mistakes from people which I doubt will ever happen.
    This! As long as people are not forgiving mistakes and really work together as a group, I have no desire to tank again. It's all insults and ragequitting right now. No patience and not even allowing a beginner to learn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Would people be OK if tanks and healers were just rewarded better?
    No reward would be worth what I expirienced as a tank. And mind you, I am on the German servers, not US. I can't quote what I was called... even the less insulting stuff would get be a permaban here.

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Naramag View Post
    No reward would be worth what I expirienced as a tank. And mind you, I am on the German servers, not US. I can't quote what I was called... even the less insulting stuff would get be a permaban here.
    I'm a tank too, I get it. I rarely venture into PuGs and stick to my guild and community for that reason.
    Dragonflight introduces powerful crafting. What if tanks and healers on M+ got an extra bag like you can in LFG. And that bag could include the usual assortment of gold, pets, mounts, consumables but also had a very solid chance of giving you BoA version of the soulbound crafting reagents. So you could get a BoA version of Primal Infusion? I think if you gave really good rewards, dps players might be tempted to try tanking or healing for the rewards.

  16. #336
    Every class could tank and there would still be shortage of tanks.

    There used to be a time when you entered the dungeon with 4 others in order to complete it via teamwork. You communicated and often times the tank took charge, naturally.

    Back in the day the content was overall much easier. But, the tank still had responsibility for the group and often times were the natural leader. What to CC, kill order, the pulls.

    These days, the content is harder. Unless you do normal, HC and lower m+ runs(but no one cares about that). When you reach content that drops good gear, its a much heavier burden on tanks than ever before. They literally dictate the whole run.

    The timer doesnt help either. Its less teamwork because of it, everyone is in a rush.

    In essence, its the same as ever but just much heavier burden for tanks now.
    Last edited by crusadernero; 2022-10-12 at 08:53 AM.

  17. #337
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    @Nymrohd
    Well, my guild was blown apart by a very manipulative, lying person. We weren't so many, it was mainly a roleplaying guild. So, at the moment it is my wife and me and a friend that don't have the time to play at the same times we do. And since we don't like to play performance oriented, we do it just for fun. We stay away from mystic as far as we can. Any farther and we would quit the game.

    So for me, your idea wouldn't work anyway. But each to their own. Nonetheless, as I see it, WoW doesn't have a community, it has a people who play the same game. It's nothing like it was in vanilla. And that is not nostalgia speaking.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Naramag View Post
    @Nymrohd
    Well, my guild was blown apart by a very manipulative, lying person. We weren't so many, it was mainly a roleplaying guild. So, at the moment it is my wife and me and a friend that don't have the time to play at the same times we do. And since we don't like to play performance oriented, we do it just for fun. We stay away from mystic as far as we can. Any farther and we would quit the game.

    So for me, your idea wouldn't work anyway. But each to their own. Nonetheless, as I see it, WoW doesn't have a community, it has a people who play the same game. It's nothing like it was in vanilla. And that is not nostalgia speaking.
    You really should look at raiding and dungeon communities over at discord. Many friendly people there. Not ideal if you want to do Mythic raids or push high M+ but great for Normal-Heroic raiding (and even some late Mythic), tons of 15s and even some higher keys.

  19. #339
    I am a main healer in mythic raids and (ofc dungeons). We are a middle-area mythic guild doing 8/10s and 9/11s usually in raids.
    I heal M +15-20 dungeons every week with a group of friends.

    I dread the idea of healing even 15 pugs. I do it only if for some reason my normal group didn't played or if I am desperate for a key. The stress, the insults, and the fear that my normal group doesn't do something that the community does and I do a mistake push me away from PUGs. And I believe this is the reason why we don't have more tanks and healers in M+.

    How to fix, as someone said, the community have to start being less elitist. Until this doesn't happen, the majority of tanks and healers are staying in their small groups.
    Last edited by dporeml; 2022-10-12 at 11:23 AM.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Untill blizzard starts actually putting thought into dungeon layout the tank problem will remain a problem forever on end. They know how players work and how they handle dungeons, yet still do nothing about the "Avoid as much as possible MOVE MOVE MOVE" dungeon design which breeds such a god awful community.

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    WoW dungeons are just as linear. The only difference is that WoW's linear is community enforced and GOD HELP YOU IF YOU DONT KNOW THE PATH.
    The new dungeons are better but there still packs you want to skip or avoid (the big gaints in front of the first boss in Gabmit it really helps if you are avoid them), then there is iron docks...... my god and then there kara. So many different path and mobs and trash everywhere. Kara is not a fun place for new tanks who never seen it before. I think the most linear dungeon or easiest is Spine this season as there aren't that many trash you want to skip (maybe the mob on the stairs to the 2nd last boss). The rest always have mobs/trash you want to skip and not many people have a rouge or use invisible pots like I do. I guess MIST is pretty straight forward but the maze sucks when you have some miss click.

    In FFXIV there are no mobs you can avoid they are light right in your path. You can sidesetp, take a shortcut or anythng.

    Quote Originally Posted by varren View Post
    Nothing. M+ being the meta has intensified the stress level of said roles, especially for tanks who are expected to know the routes perfectly. Look at Wrath Classic and the absurd amount of tanks there are. Wotlk-MoP was the golden age in terms of tank accessibility. Active mit wasn't overbearing and no M+ to worry about.
    Hai I use to tank and heal in WoLK it was fun using 2 stimina trinket on my bear and boosting the hp was up. Back then players are nicer for sure. Now not so much. I tend to stay silent. Yesterday was doing fate LFR on my alt and the tank admitted he is new. The group for once was actually being really nice. There was a few wipes but that's expected. It wasn't till we get to Kel'Thuzad when the group falls apart mainly due to you guest IT DPS NOT going down. Literally there are at least 4 hunters and 6 melee but only 4 went down. And this keeps happening even after many tries where melees and hunters were ask to go down. And of course people not killing adds. Their excuse? It lowers my dps if I swap targerts...... sigh

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