KSM is too easy.

[glowpipe]

Still used to be designed to be harder. /return to thread

No it wasn't. before you just had to clear all dungeons at 15. Now you need both Tyrannical and fortified at 15.

[crusadernero]

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Pretty much this.

[LordVargK]

If M+ is so easy and quick to get mythic raid gear then why not just clear that first to get a full set, then go face roll mythic raid

Because it is 4 times harder to assemble 20 skilled players than to get 5?

[Echeyakee]

I agree with the general statement that it's much harder to organize a consistent mythic raid than to get KSM, or even do 20s. But at the same time, I kinda don't care any more. Half a dozen years of mythic level loot from vault should of killed heroic raiding as a whole (and it did some serious damage), but it still survived. So who cares, really?

[Gasparde]

No it wasn't. before you just had to clear all dungeons at 15. Now you need both Tyrannical and fortified at 15.

Tedious timegating != difficulty.

[Dalinos]

He wants to be rewarded for logistical organization rather than game skill.

Of course he wants recognition. There is zero chance anyone who rants about that isn't in it for the ego trip.

Raid-logger parasite who puts 0 effort in his raiding community (if he even has one) detected. Kill it, kill it with fire, fast, before it multiplies!

[Asrialol]

Most casuals can time above 20s now so might as well make KSM +20 or 25?

[Shihao]

Lets be real here: WoW is a game, and a RPG on top of that. The main goal is character progression in order to become stronger and overcome greater challenges. Even ignoring the logistic challenge of mantaining a raid team and having to play on a schedule, Myhic raids are way harder and time consuming than a M+15, giving the same level of reward for the effort.

The vast majority of the players will take the path of least resistance for gearing. If the mission table gave out BiS gear it would also quickly become the most popular feature of the game and everything else would start dying out.

The main issue is this, fixing the reward structure so the difficulty is comparable and then the "play the content you want to play" will start making sense. This means making it harder to get BiS from M+ or making it easier/more flexible to get it from raiding.

[Tyris Flare]

Did you guys even read the new post? They are adding more scaling and (potentially dramatically) increasing the difficulty.

[Temp name]

Mhmm... having healed it on 21 and 20 a few times I agree it is insane damage. I need about 14-15k hps. Luckily my Tank is a Pala and can pretty much take care of himself without me babysitting him,

Yeah, but.. Every tank is basically entirely self sufficient right now.
Your tank being a paladin is entirely irrelevant to that end. What he does do (or should) is help alleviate healing on other people

[jeezusisacasual]

He wants to be rewarded for logistical organization rather than game skill.

Of course he wants recognition. There is zero chance anyone who rants about that isn't in it for the ego trip.

Exactly no one and i mean no one does that at all. Most go to subcreation or a guide follow what they need or want and call it a day. That posted sounded like Hey look i have X car i am sure better then everyone else.

[8bithamster]

Jesus the flexing in this thread. We get it. You're all heroes that world first guilds keep begging to join. Everyone lines up to bow for you ingame when you bless oribos with your presence.
The lowly jailer is just an lfr hero compared to your purple pixels.. Ow wait, they're just that. Pixels.

Get of your high horse and let people enjoy what they want. Ksm is supposed to be the middle tier between the easy title and the elite title.

[Ateo]

Look the major hurdle is mythic raiding being locked to 20 man content. It needs to be 10 man content. I've pushed cutting edge before and the issue was never the difficulty of the content it was the organization of 20 idiots and getting them all to stay on a times schedule.

The same goes for rated battlegrounds.

Mythic raiding and rated battlegrounds both suffer from the fact they need more players than should be required.

If they'd simply lower mythic raiding to 10 man and rated bgs to 6 man content the game would be much better and both communites would be lively.

This is a game, stop ego tripping. This is why m+ is so successful, it is exponentially easier to organize 5 random players than it is 20.

The end game should be this:
M+ - 5 man
RBGs - 6 man
Mythic raiding - 10 man
Flex raiding(Norm/Heroic) - 10-40 players

It makes literally no sense for something to be targeted as "completive play" yet bloated with such large numbers as 20 players. It isolates so much of the player base in a game that is already dwindling.

Also remove the faction requirements for guilds, the horde vs alliance shit is dead, blizzard killed it, commit to the choice of cross faction play and let us guild up so we have more players to pull from in every piece of content.

/EndRant

[Lolites]

Lets be real here: WoW is a game, and a RPG on top of that. The main goal is character progression in order to become stronger and overcome greater challenges. Even ignoring the logistic challenge of mantaining a raid team and having to play on a schedule, Myhic raids are way harder and time consuming than a M+15, giving the same level of reward for the effort.

The vast majority of the players will take the path of least resistance for gearing. If the mission table gave out BiS gear it would also quickly become the most popular feature of the game and everything else would start dying out.

The main issue is this, fixing the reward structure so the difficulty is comparable and then the "play the content you want to play" will start making sense. This means making it harder to get BiS from M+ or making it easier/more flexible to get it from raiding.

ok so first of all no, M+15 doesnt give the same reward as mythic raiding, vault gives one that is on par with WEAKEST mythic gear, but vault is SHARED with raid, and killing 2mythic bosses, which first few bosses in raids usualy are relatively easy themself, gives you that too, on top of loot chance from boss, not to mention most of bis trinkets and weapons are currently from raid... so mythic raiding STILL gives best rewards ingame...

second, mythic raiding never really had that high participation

and third, 3 expansions after M+ started and raiding still is doing well, so the argument m+ will kill it bcs its path of least ressistance seems to be incorrect...
do we actualy have any data suggesting smaller part of playerbase raids than before m+? hell, i would say thanks to m+ working as kind of "nerf" more people can raid than before...

[Relapses]

Did you guys even read the new post? They are adding more scaling and (potentially dramatically) increasing the difficulty.

A +20 with the new scaling changes is around a current +22. I imagine a +15 will be around a current +16/17. There are two potential compounding factors which will make dungeons more difficult: Early season dungeon unfamiliarity and introductory season power creep. Because of insane player power scaling at the moment I think a lot of players are completing keys a lot higher than they'd normally be able to so the whiplash from having 95% haste at the end of a key in SL S4 to having a handful of base stats in DF S1 is going to be rough for a lot of players. Since DF's first seasonal affix is not going to be kiss/curse like pretty much every season we've had up until this point I think Season 1 has the potential to be a lot harder around the +20 level. (Prayge the current iteration doesn't go live because it looks fucking miserable.)

[Tyris Flare]

A +20 with the new scaling changes is around a current +22. I imagine a +15 will be around a current +16/17. There are two potential compounding factors which will make dungeons more difficult: Early season dungeon unfamiliarity and introductory season power creep. Because of insane player power scaling at the moment I think a lot of players are completing keys a lot higher than they'd normally be able to so the whiplash from having 95% haste at the end of a key in SL S4 to having a handful of base stats in DF S1 is going to be rough for a lot of players. Since DF's first seasonal affix is not going to be kiss/curse like pretty much every season we've had up until this point I think Season 1 has the potential to be a lot harder around the +20 level. (Prayge the current iteration doesn't go live because it looks fucking miserable.)

Yeah without the kiss buffs from seasonal affixes plus the inherent "everything plays like shit in the first patch" level of secondaries, the dungeons are going to be dramatically more difficult than now, where a gray parsing monkey can easily do 20s if there are 2 competent people in the group

[Karawaka]

Because it is 4 times harder to assemble 20 skilled players than to get 5?

The roster boss should not be a factor when determining difficulty of content

[Dalinos]

The roster boss should not be a factor when determining difficulty of content

But...unfortunately, it is. Ever since OG vanilla, the hardest part was finding enough consistent players to fill your roster. Another super hard boss that has decimated countless guilds is the summer holidays. Activity in WoW always drops during the summer hols. The guilds that I have been a part of for multiple years are the ones that DIDNT fold into themselves during the summer holidays, and the ones that could keep a healthy roster + bench, so as to not burn out their raiders. ALL of that, is much, much harder than the in-game skills required to clear the content. 18 years of raiding have shown me that, if you are a dedicated player, who shows up to raids, does his/her research, and puts effort in your performance, you are good enough to clear the content, gameplay-skillwise. It's the out-of-game skills that are hard to find. And ALL of THIS that I just mentioned isn't even an issue when building a 5-man M+ squad.

[tomten]

As someone who is both a raid leader and an M+ tank who got KSM in all 4 Shadowlands seasons, I can safely say that....

KSM is literally a joke. I've been clearing 15's on the day of the patch, with my squad we can get KSM in 2-3 weeks if we don't slack. S4 KSM took me 4 weeks cause I slacked with my Tyrannicals on week 2, meaning I needed to wait till week 4 to get Tyrannical clears again. KSM is easily attainable by any stable organized 5-man group that uses voice comms and min-maxes ever so slightly (correct Covenant, spec, conduits, legendaries, legendary combo later on etc). Now, let's contrast this with my Heroic Raiding guild....

Where it took us forever to clear Heroic Sepulcher. We literally got Ahead of the Curve like 2 weeks before it was removed. Why? Attendance and performance issues. On a good night we'll have 15 sign ups. 5 of those people are sub-par when it comes to performance, not even having the skills/knowledge to farm 15s on week 1 like I do with my main squad. I'm forced to take them though, because scaling is fucked up and extra bodies in raids are always welcome (more CD's, more people to do mechanics etc). If I had my M+ squad x4, then Heroic would be cleared on 1st reset and we'd be starting Mythic progress by week 2. Alas, that is not the case. Out of 15 Heroic raiders who consistently show up and enjoy raiding, I can safely say ~8 of them are Mythic raiding material.

That being said, we did get 1 night in Season 4 where we had 18 sign ups. I held a vote, the vote passed, we pugged 2 people and walked into Mythic Fated Castle Nathria. We managed to kill 2 bosses and got the Hungering Destroyer to 2%. Sure, some carrying was done in terms of DPS, but in terms of tactics and mechanics my raiders were stellar.

Would you look at that. The same group that easily farms 15s on week 1 so as to not fall behind on GV progress managed to muster 20 people ONCE (with 2 PUGs) in ~6 months of raiding. When we did muster those numbers, we were successful. But gathering those numbers was always the hard part, and always will be. To compare organized Mythic raiding to +15's is a farce. If you wanna compare Mythic raids to some M+ level, it's easily 20's+, maybe even 22s-25s.

Also, people are bound to ask, so here's my Armory link. Knock yourselves out.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ch...rhood/dalinos/

So out of touch with reality its hard to even write a proper response.
90% of the playerbase? They are worse than your 5 baddies for heroic raiding.
15's are so hard that majority of the playerbase don't even think about trying them.

Your argument falls down like this, if i had 4x people like myself, i would be the worlds best m+ team.
But what does that matter in terms of m+ vs raiding? Nothing? Why do you even bring it up? Bad people will be bad regardless of what they're doing?
It also depends when you're doing bosses... Doing a completely gutted and nerfed castle WITH fated powers making it even easier and killing the 2 easiest pug bosses in the entire raid?? That's what you're proud over and compare things too?
You not being able to recruit people doesn't determine difficulty in the slightest?

[Dalinos]

So out of touch with reality its hard to even write a proper response.
90% of the playerbase? They are worse than your 5 baddies for heroic raiding.
15's are so hard that majority of the playerbase don't even think about trying them.

Your argument falls down like this, if i had 4x people like myself, i would be the worlds best m+ team.
But what does that matter in terms of m+ vs raiding? Nothing? Why do you even bring it up? Bad people will be bad regardless of what they're doing?
It also depends when you're doing bosses... Doing a completely gutted and nerfed castle WITH fated powers making it even easier and killing the 2 easiest pug bosses in the entire raid?? That's what you're proud over and compare things too?
You not being able to recruit people doesn't determine difficulty in the slightest?

The whole point of this thread is that KSM is too easy and rewards Mythic Raid level gear in the GV. On its own, it rewards Heroic End-boss gear. In S3, you could upgrade your gear to 272 using Valour and your M+ rating. You know who drops 272 gear? Heroic Jailer. It is much, much harder to kill Heroic Jailer than it is to get KSM. Period.