Mythic+ Updates in Dragonflight - Seasonal Rotation, Rewards Scale Up to +20

[Nereidaa]

This is obviously a very good change for the people who matter, which is those that want M+ to be a challenging, competitive, and self-contained experience, as raiding and PvP are.

The fact that the rest of the players can benefit from it in any shape or form is accidental, and any self-entitlement in that regard needs only be dismissed. Just as people who aren't into PvP or are not particularly good at it sometimes dip into it to get some PvP gear to use in other content (heavily mitigated by the reasonably recent changes that make PvP gear only really competitive in PvP environments), M+ should not be for people who want their weekly grab bag of free top-tier loot to use in other content, and this is a step in the right direction - and hopefully, there will be more of it coming soon in that same direction.

I see people tagging it as elitist as if it was a bad thing, but it's in everything in life. Every job, every sport, every game offers more rewards to those who are better at it. And I'm very glad M+ will reward those who are better at it. Get over it.

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Before I'd go into M+ and meet people with cca 295-299 ilvl, meanwhile I'm 293, so I could actually compete

How can you still be 293 with uncaped valor existing 4 months into the season? i wouldnt inv you too cuz you are a lazy ass mfker, it took me 2 weeks to get my alt from 180 ilvl to 298 ilvl

[rrayy]

This is obviously a very good change for the people who matter, which is those that want M+ to be a challenging, competitive, and self-contained experience, as raiding and PvP are.

The fact that the rest of the players can benefit from it in any shape or form is accidental, and any self-entitlement in that regard needs only be dismissed. Just as people who aren't into PvP or are not particularly good at it sometimes dip into it to get some PvP gear to use in other content (heavily mitigated by the reasonably recent changes that make PvP gear only really competitive in PvP environments), M+ should not be for people who want their weekly grab bag of free top-tier loot to use in other content, and this is a step in the right direction - and hopefully, there will be more of it coming soon in that same direction.

I see people tagging it as elitist as if it was a bad thing, but it's in everything in life. Every job, every sport, every game offers more rewards to those who are better at it. And I'm very glad M+ will reward those who are better at it. Get over it.

Completing content doesn't mean you are better at it.

[Cynicalnerd]

How can you still be 293 with uncaped valor existing 4 months into the season? i wouldnt inv you too cuz you are a lazy ass mfker, it took me 2 weeks to get my alt from 180 ilvl to 298 ilvl

Sureeeeeee it did. Not everyone is lucky with drops and vaults. I’m 301 now but I was stuck forever without legs, gloves and weapons to upgrade. And I spammed a lot of dungeons. Not to mention two slots are stuck at 291 because of leggo.

[hulkgor]

So now mythic raiders will be even more required to mass farm m+ on weekends during prog, since its even MORE rewarding now. Lovely.

This whole "forced" mentality is astonishing to me.

[jdbond]

Umm..So this is reward for "raiding". Effectively punishing those who don't raid...I didn't see any tier drop or best trinkets in mythic loot..WOW WOW!

No tier, no decent trinkets, no cosmetic,...Yeah, mythic was truly outstanding at doling out the best mstuff

[Koollan]

I'm so happy for this change. Making M+ actually harder than raiding and providing rewards based on that difficulty. Great changes all around. Can't wait.

[Coldkil]

the system they are making now is better. You get the same reward as you would before from a +15 compared to the shadowlands equivalent and they are just putting further rewards from getting it to +20.

Not really. 15s in df will reward end of normal ilvl from dungeons and mid hc from vault, whic is substantially lower than higher of all hc from dungeons and mythic ilvl from vault.

But i fully agree it's a better system. Overall you can get better gear than before if you go up to 20, the people complaining are the ones who liked to zerg 15s and get their free mythic loot rolls or likely are worried their boosts will cost substantially more than before, as they also increased m+ scaling.

[Relapses]

Not really. 15s in df will reward end of normal ilvl from dungeons and mid hc from vault, whic is substantially lower than higher of all hc from dungeons and mythic ilvl from vault.

But i fully agree it's a better system. Overall you can get better gear than before if you go up to 20, the people complaining are the ones who liked to zerg 15s and get their free mythic loot rolls or likely are worried their boosts will cost substantially more than before, as they also increased m+ scaling.

This is a godsend for the boosting community. I haven't really been interested in boosting before but with these rewards there's a legitimate incentive to boost 20s which will likely be extremely profitable.

[Sanguinerd]

This whole "forced" mentality is astonishing to me.

It's not so much that we feel FORCED as in gun to our head type thing but by not doing so you will be behind, and feeling behind like you're holding the rest back is not a good feeling. So while we're not "forced" there is a sense of obligation because you're part of a team.

People that push M+ attain gear at a much faster rate and while in turn they will not need as much raid loot we will need to kill the bosses in order to get said loot in the first place.

[Koollan]

It's not so much that we feel FORCED as in gun to our head type thing but by not doing so you will be behind, and feeling behind like you're holding the rest back is not a good feeling. So while we're not "forced" there is a sense of obligation because you're part of a team.

People that push M+ attain gear at a much faster rate and while in turn they will not need as much raid loot we will need to kill the bosses in order to get said loot in the first place.

Just to be 'that guy' real quick -

People will not be able to do 20s reliably and get gear from it unless they dedicate the time to knowing the system. It just won't be viable until you overgear for it through raiding unless you're a dedicated M+ player.

Nobody will be 'forced' to do it simply because you just straight up won't be able to. As far as I can see from the current testing cycle, anyway. Mythic raiding guilds, sure, they could do it, but the average person will not, and can not. I just don't see it with the scaling how it is currently.

[ClassicPeon]

This is a godsend for the boosting community. I haven't really been interested in boosting before but with these rewards there's a legitimate incentive to boost 20s which will likely be extremely profitable.

Perfect reason to revert the change completely

[Argorwal]

It's not so much that we feel FORCED as in gun to our head type thing but by not doing so you will be behind, and feeling behind like you're holding the rest back is not a good feeling. So while we're not "forced" there is a sense of obligation because you're part of a team.

People that push M+ attain gear at a much faster rate and while in turn they will not need as much raid loot we will need to kill the bosses in order to get said loot in the first place.

Yes, people that progress both will gear faster than those that don’t.

People that also raid in addition to mythic+ will also gear faster than those that only do mythic+.

Seems like the system works.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to be 'that guy' real quick -

People will not be able to do 20s reliably and get gear from it unless they dedicate the time to knowing the system. It just won't be viable until you overgear for it through raiding unless you're a dedicated M+ player.

Nobody will be 'forced' to do it simply because you just straight up won't be able to. As far as I can see from the current testing cycle, anyway. Mythic raiding guilds, sure, they could do it, but the average person will not, and can not. I just don't see it with the scaling how it is currently.

Yeah pretty much.

It’s kind of weird on how expectations and being “forced” work. People are “forced” into mythic+ for that 298 EoD loot but aren’t “forced” into arena for that targeted 298 PvP loot that is in addition to mythic+ and the raid.

[Relapses]

Just to be 'that guy' real quick -

People will not be able to do 20s reliably and get gear from it unless they dedicate the time to knowing the system. It just won't be viable until you overgear for it through raiding unless you're a dedicated M+ player.

Nobody will be 'forced' to do it simply because you just straight up won't be able to. As far as I can see from the current testing cycle, anyway. Mythic raiding guilds, sure, they could do it, but the average person will not, and can not. I just don't see it with the scaling how it is currently.

Even though I don't raid anymore I help out my old raiding guild at the beginning of patches because they're always looking for tanks and stuff. One of the "requirements" for early prog for this guild is at least 4 M+s. Because it's a weekend raid guild they have a lot of raidloggers. (Many of their best raiders are the alts of people who raid in a better guild during the week.) This was extremely hard for them to get people to do when these keys were "just" 15s and I think the onus is going to be even more difficult now that they're 20s. I think that's where the "forced" aspect is coming from.

[Duese]

Learning a new raid can be fun and challenging, but the relative ease of completing Mythic+ dungeons that everyone mastered last season can create heavy social pressure to spend time in Mythic+ gearing up even if it’s not your preferred activity.

How does this not apply specifically to the regurgitated dungeons as well? Apparently if the dungeons aren't from this expansion then they are brand new and definitely no one has ever played them before. They definitely haven't already played many of them in M+ already.

It's frustrating how horrible they are treating M+. It's one of their highest engagement activities in the game and one of the most unique pieces of content to WoW that other games don't have. You'd think they'd want to maintain that but instead they are taking bullshit shortcuts like this.

If this is your best content for player retention, then why can't they make some new dungeons with each content patch? They can make entire new raids, but apparently can barely scratch out a new dungeon once in two years?

----

Regarding the rewards, this change is not going to improve m+ in any way. Right now there was already no reason to run higher than a +15 in terms of gear. There was a trivial incentive for +20. And yet, people were still pushing up to higher and higher m+ levels. IT DIDN'T NEED AN INCENTIVE. Those people were already pushing them.

Now, it's forcing even worse gear progression into M+, something that had already been reduced for starters. Every week, we would help our guildies knock out their +15. Making that harder is only going to punish the middle of the road players while doing nothing for the high end players that were ALREADY doing higher m+ even without the rewards.

[Koollan]

How does this not apply specifically to the regurgitated dungeons as well? Apparently if the dungeons aren't from this expansion then they are brand new and definitely no one has ever played them before. They definitely haven't already played many of them in M+ already.

It's frustrating how horrible they are treating M+. It's one of their highest engagement activities in the game and one of the most unique pieces of content to WoW that other games don't have. You'd think they'd want to maintain that but instead they are taking bullshit shortcuts like this.

If this is your best content for player retention, then why can't they make some new dungeons with each content patch? They can make entire new raids, but apparently can barely scratch out a new dungeon once in two years?

----

Regarding the rewards, this change is not going to improve m+ in any way. Right now there was already no reason to run higher than a +15 in terms of gear. There was a trivial incentive for +20. And yet, people were still pushing up to higher and higher m+ levels. IT DIDN'T NEED AN INCENTIVE. Those people were already pushing them.

Now, it's forcing even worse gear progression into M+, something that had already been reduced for starters. Every week, we would help our guildies knock out their +15. Making that harder is only going to punish the middle of the road players while doing nothing for the high end players that were ALREADY doing higher m+ even without the rewards.

When +15s were doable by somebody who just hit max level, for the max ilvl rewards, there's an issue. A big, big issue. 15 was the M+ endgame. Making it possible for any random Joe was a big reason why competition in M+ wasn't very strong, because there were little to no groups pushing it seriously. This not only rewards people who push it seriously, but it incentivizes and encourages a competitive teamwork mindset, especially with the buffs they made to the damage and health to every key beyond +10.

Yes, I am biased. I do mostly M+ rather than raiding (though I do plan to raidlead in DF). I'm of course going to like an increased skill floor to get the maximum itemlevel upgrade. Especially to get people to stop complaining about their boring but required M+ 15 great vault. Maybe it won't be so boring now and will take actual thought to get through. Who's to say?

[Nereidaa]

I think people are failing to understand that +20s won't be required by random tryhard semi-core guilds anymore in the process of gearing up for mythic progress, since it will be something that will require either high skill or high dedication, probably a combination of both, at least at any stage of mythic raid progression that matters.

People might be asked to at least get something out of the M+, but do not be afraid, my friends. When your guild leader realizes he can't really beat +17s while hogging up the main tank, favourite e-girl healer and the two best fotm DPS in the guild, he won't be asking anyone else to have a mandatory +20 vault item every week, the same as you wouldn't be forced to have 2200+ arena rating to get PvP gear that can help in raids.

The only reason +15s were mandatory for most normies is precisely that it was a freebie, and made M+ rewards a joke as a whole. These M+ updates change that, and I'm personally looking forward to see more changes in this direction.

[ClassicPeon]

I think people are failing to understand that +20s won't be required by random tryhard semi-core guilds anymore in the process of gearing up for mythic progress, since it will be something that will require either high skill or high dedication, probably a combination of both, at least at any stage of mythic raid progression that matters.

People might be asked to at least get something out of the M+, but do not be afraid, my friends. When your guild leader realizes he can't really beat +17s while hogging up the main tank, favourite e-girl healer and the two best fotm DPS in the guild, he won't be asking anyone else to have a mandatory +20 vault item every week, the same as you wouldn't be forced to have 2200+ arena rating to get PvP gear that can help in raids.

The only reason +15s were mandatory for most normies is precisely that it was a freebie, and made M+ rewards a joke as a whole. These M+ updates change that, and I'm personally looking forward to see more changes in this direction.

Literally anyone that did AOTC in shadowlands can do a m+20. My 1 raids a week hc guild all have 20-25's across the board. The problem with comparing m+ and raid is the accesability. Short dungeons of around 30 minutes of 5 people are infinitely more accessible to repetition and practise then 20 man raids that take hours of practise just for 1 kill.

[Duese]

When +15s were doable by somebody who just hit max level, for the max ilvl rewards, there's an issue. A big, big issue.

Ok, let's agree not to make bullshit claims shall we? No, people are not hitting max level and then stepping right into +15's unless they are being carried.

Secondly, the premise of your statement would also apply to raids if players are able to kill mythic raid bosses the week they come out.

So, nothing about your statement holds up at all.

15 was the M+ endgame.

+15 was the highest you got rewards, not the end game for m+. If +15 was the end game, then why are people pushing past 20, 25, 30, etc? Because there's more to m+ as an end game activity than just rewards. Like I said in my previous post, players are ALREADY pushing higher m+ even without additional incentives.

Making it possible for any random Joe was a big reason why competition in M+ wasn't very strong, because there were little to no groups pushing it seriously.

Yeah, except the thousands of groups that were pushing well past 20. There are more players clearing m+ higher than +15 than clear raids. It's not even close.

I'm actually really frustrated responding to your comments because they are just so disconnected from reality. You talk about their not being competition in m+ which is just so ignorant that it's not even funny. There were two major marketed pieces of content literally based on competition in m+ with both the MDI and Great Push. How can you possibly say that people weren't taking m+ beyond +15 seriously? Did you think through your comment at all?

This not only rewards people who push it seriously, but it incentivizes and encourages a competitive teamwork mindset, especially with the buffs they made to the damage and health to every key beyond +10.

Which, as I've ALREADY POINTED OUT WITH FACTS, didn't need incentivizing.

Yes, I am biased.

Biased isn't the word that I'm using to describe you right now. Uninformed or oblivious would fit better and that's not me just trying to be a dick. That's me wondering how the hell you can make the comments you are making without even recognizing the most blatantly obvious facts that contradict what you are saying. I shouldn't have to point this stuff out.

I'm of course going to like an increased skill floor to get the maximum itemlevel upgrade.

But why? Your comment here comes across as really shallow. This idea that other people getting less somehow benefits you is selfish and ridiculous. What do you actually benefit out of this? If you really are someone who focuses primarily on m+, then why wouldn't your focus be on clearing the highest m+ rather than worrying about what people clearing m+ 10 levels below you are clearing?

Especially to get people to stop complaining about their boring but required M+ 15 great vault.

How does this change that at all? Did something change with the vault that makes you not have to run an m+ in order to get the additional option?

Maybe it won't be so boring now and will take actual thought to get through. Who's to say?

Is that actually making it better? You talk about it being boring, but apparently the only thing you think makes something not boring is for it to be blisteringly hard. That's not what everyone thinks is fun but I'm not sure you understand any opinions that aren't yours so that's probably falling on deaf ears.

[LDancer]

Honestly, I find it unfortunate as there are a lot of mid level players and guilds that relied on +15 to give them a little boost esp when their group has hit a wall.

I think the reward structure could have found a compromise by structuring M+ loot to be the same as PVP. The ilvl in open world or other content is fixed and only boosted in PVP content. Same should have been done for M+…. Ilvl of gear would scale up as your rating went up in M+ only.