Russian invasion of Ukraine

[zealo]

I think Zelenskyy/Ukraine fumbled their momentum, are going to face blowback from it. Saying they wouldn't go to the negotiating table was stupid. Forgetting that they are being carried by the aide of other nations fighting a proxy war against Russia was stupid. Russia went into the fight with its pants down, but they still have guns, bombs, and ammo they haven't used yet and winter is coming. One of the things said during at the beginning of the war there's no way Russia would do a long/full campaign because winter was ending at the time, their military is tailored for fighting on the hard Eastern European winter ground and (obviously) does poorly in the softer ground of spring. Will it cost Ukraine the 'war'? Probably not. Did they lose some bargaining power? Absolutely.

Thinking you don't have to sit at any negotiating table is just wild. Wars end in two ways, annihilation or a brokered cease-fire/surrender.

The Crimea bridge incident was wreckless. The term 'burning bridges' describes tactical fuckups for good reason. It's a form of retaliation that escalates the war up a notch.

Its like the groundhog saw its shadow, and now we have 6 more months of this conflict. It seems like the general public has moved past popular support for the war, so it will be interesting to if that will impact the kind of aide Ukraine reserves during the backend of the war.

No it wasn't, it was a major strategic success hitting that bridge.

It's a legitimate military target with the supply artery it is for the Russian military to the front in southern Ukraine, unlike the tantrum the fascists in the Kremlin have responded with today.

[Gabriel]

Why would there need to be a ceasefire once they push Russia out of Ukraine?

To stop Ukraine from bombing russian military bases inside russia just to make sure they stay gone?

[zealo]

I mean unless you think Ukraine will be able to conquer all of Russia or cause a complete government collapse in Russia there will need to be some form of negotiated cease fire at the least. Hopefully this happens after Ukraine takes it's territory back tho.

Obviously, but expecting Russia to actually take attempts at that seriously before they've been fully ejected from Ukrainian soil is being naive.

[Veggie50]

I think Zelenskyy/Ukraine fumbled their momentum, are going to face blowback from it. Saying they wouldn't go to the negotiating table was stupid. Forgetting that they are being carried by the aide of other nations fighting a proxy war against Russia was stupid. Russia went into the fight with its pants down, but they still have guns, bombs, and ammo they haven't used yet and winter is coming. One of the things said during at the beginning of the war there's no way Russia would do a long/full campaign because winter was ending at the time, their military is tailored for fighting on the hard Eastern European winter ground and (obviously) does poorly in the softer ground of spring. Will it cost Ukraine the 'war'? Probably not. Did they lose some bargaining power? Absolutely.

Thinking you don't have to sit at any negotiating table is just wild. Wars end in two ways, annihilation or a brokered cease-fire/surrender.

The Crimea bridge incident was wreckless. The term 'burning bridges' describes tactical fuckups for good reason. It's a form of retaliation that escalates the war up a notch.

Its like the groundhog saw its shadow, and now we have 6 more months of this conflict. It seems like the general public has moved past popular support for the war, so it will be interesting to if that will impact the kind of aide Ukraine reserves during the backend of the war.

“Burning bridges” is not an expression relating to strategy or tactics. Nor is it considered to be a mistake. Because of this, your argument falls apart completely.

To burn bridges means to make a clear choice in the direction you’re heading in, without leaving other options open.

Ukraine wants Russia out. Period.

[Canpinter]

Why would there need to be a ceasefire once they push Russia out of Ukraine?

Because the only other options are A. a never ending skirmish on the boarder or B. An unofficial ceasefire that leaves the entire area a powderkeg ready to go off the first time a private on watch gets a bit jumpy.

Ukraine negotiating a ceasefire from a strong position gives a measure of stability and hopefully let's them get some of their kidnaped citizens back.

[Nymrohd]

Because the only other options are A. a never ending skirmish on the boarder or B. An unofficial ceasefire that leaves the entire area a powderkeg ready to go off the first time a private on watch gets a bit jumpy.

Ukraine negotiating a ceasefire from a strong position gives a measure of stability and hopefully let's them get some of their kidnaped citizens back.

I kind of expect a demilitarized zone in the Ukraine/Russian border.

[Canpinter]

Obviously, but expecting Russia to actually take attempts at that seriously before they've been fully ejected from Ukrainian soil is being naive.

Agreed but plenty of people here have been saying no negotiating ever as if that's a realistic option long term.

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I kind of expect a demilitarized zone in the Ukraine/Russian border.

Sure but that kind of set up doesn't happen without negotiating between the two countries.

[Fugus]

Has there been something major happened within the last 16 hours? Wasn't expecting to see this many posts added since I left unless Shlacker came back or someone like him.

[Nymrohd]

Has there been something major happened within the last 16 hours? Wasn't expecting to see this many posts added since I left unless Shlacker came back or someone like him.

Waffles. But more importantly, Belarus is joining the fray and Russia decided to react to the bridge by murdering a lot of civilians and targeting civilian infrastructure.

[Saradain]

Has there been something major happened within the last 16 hours? Wasn't expecting to see this many posts added since I left unless Shlacker came back or someone like him.

Just Russia bombarding fully civilian targets in retaliation of Ukraine striking at a military target. And some...people glorifying and being happy about the ukrainian civilians dying. The usual MMO-C standard.

[Makabreska]

Has there been something major happened within the last 16 hours? Wasn't expecting to see this many posts added since I left unless Shlacker came back or someone like him.

I mean, all you have to do is fire up any media outlet.

[zorkuus]

Because the only other options are A. a never ending skirmish on the boarder or B. An unofficial ceasefire that leaves the entire area a powderkeg ready to go off the first time a private on watch gets a bit jumpy.

Ukraine negotiating a ceasefire from a strong position gives a measure of stability and hopefully let's them get some of their kidnaped citizens back.

The nazi putler regime has clearly shown their signatures on paper are worth less than shit.
Only an idiot would negotiate with them at this point.

[Fugus]

So Russia being Russia. The Belarus thing is new though but not unexpected.

Hopefully them joining the fray means that others will join on Ukraine's part.

And @Makabreska I do look at the news some, but a lot of my stuff comes from here because many of these people find it before I can even think about it and post links. Just knew I went to bed last night and when I got up this page had like 5+ new pages so figured something new happened.

[Iphie]

Why would there need to be a ceasefire once they push Russia out of Ukraine?

To formally end hostilities, it may sound silly but the formality of it is kinda needed, otherwise you end up with a North Korea-South Korea situation where they've never signed a peace treaty or russia -Japan after WWII.

Obviously all this is AFTER russia is expelled, and after putin leaves.

[Canpinter]

To formally end hostilities, it may sound silly but the formality of it is kinda needed, otherwise you end up with a North Korea-South Korea situation where they've never signed a peace treaty or russia -Japan after WWII.

Obviously all this is AFTER russia is expelled, and after putin leaves.

Hell even north and south Korea have a ceasefire.

[zorkuus]

To formally end hostilities, it may sound silly but the formality of it is kinda needed, otherwise you end up with a North Korea-South Korea situation where they've never signed a peace treaty or russia -Japan after WWII.

Obviously all this is AFTER russia is expelled, and after putin leaves.

You can sign all sorts of deals with ruZZkiland, doesn't mean they will honor it.

[Nymrohd]

Hell even north and south Korea have a ceasefire.

Which South Korea NEVER signed.

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To formally end hostilities, it may sound silly but the formality of it is kinda needed, otherwise you end up with a North Korea-South Korea situation where they've never signed a peace treaty or russia -Japan after WWII.

Obviously all this is AFTER russia is expelled, and after putin leaves.

I don't see them signing it though. Forget reparations, they would be requesting sanction relief. After the last series of bombings we should be moving to harsher sanctions (e.g. medical supplies).

And honestly there should be a massive team set up by multiple nations whose job is to find Putin's wealth and seize it.

[Iphie]

You can sign all sorts of deals with ruZZkiland, doesn't mean they will honor it.

The current leadership, no you can't no. But that doesn't mean there will never be a leadership who can be trusted. (Doubtful for the foreseeable future, but then again most politicians have trustworthiness issues.)

In any case I wouldn't turn my back on russians any time soon.

I don't see them signing it though. Forget reparations, they would be requesting sanction relief. After the last series of bombings we should be moving to harsher sanctions (e.g. medical supplies).

And honestly there should be a massive team set up by multiple nations whose job is to find Putin's wealth and seize it.

Look I don't have all the answers either, but I do know how these things tend to end: at the negotiation table. (And frankly since that is the case we should just dispense with the nasty business of shooting at eachother.) Unfortunately russia is a bad faith actor.

Edit: In this case a negotiation is definitely needed as an unconditional surrender from either side is very unlikely.

[zorkuus]

Edit: In this case a negotiation is definitely needed

Why? The minimum requirement from fascist ruSSia will be for Ukraine to officially cease land to them (and maybe other internartional actors to recognise them as russian land too). I know it, you know it.
The Ukrainians will never sign that, and they shouldn't.
If you cannot get past that first hurdle in the negotiations (and you can't), then the negotiation will be entirely pointless.
ANY negotiation in this case would favor ruZZia. None would favor Ukraine.

[Corvus]

The experts are all saying the same thing, that there is zero evidence russia has changed any of their wargoals (ie the complete destruction of Ukraine as a people and culture) and any ceasefire would simply be used to rebuild their forces to continue that goal.