Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[bledgor]

I have no idea how anyone who has ever cracked a history book in their life could possible think "Tradespeople being concerned for their jobs" is some modern phenomenon. This is exactly what I am talking about. You are taking your own terminally online politics and projecting it onto everyone else. If Wormtongue was not from the books but his exact story existed in this show, you would tell us how it's a modern allegory for political leaders being beholden to corrupt advisors. OBVIOUSLY THEY MUST BE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE STEVE BANNON AND RUDY GIULIANI, RIGHT? You could do this with anything if you want to. You could look at the original books and say that Tolkien was pushing a message about how different races need to combine their efforts, even though in reality he wasn't trying to convey any such meaning. Anyone can project their obnoxious political hangups into anything if they try hard enough.

Its called context. Tolkien doesn't have this message in his stories. So when you take it and shove it forcefully into his story, it becomes an allegory, and since it is a big ticket item in modern politics, it would thus be referred to as a a modern allegory being used in his story. Like seriously does men complaining about elves taking their jobs sound in ANY MEASURE like Tolkien/something Tolkien wrote? If you think yes I encourage you to reread all his works before typing up an answer.

No I wouldn't, but nice whataboutism, glad to see you have no real defense. Also it is a key theme of the story about corruption, especially when it comes to matters of Sauron and man, about their malleability in part due to their mortality (hey that thing that actually make the Numenoreans upset in Tolkien's work).

The sheer fucking lengths some people go to in order to defend this story is amazing, like I would have to get paid fat stacks to be this proactive in defense of the story.

Oh also anyone notice that when Galadriel talked about her first meeting with Celeborn it was a direct rip from Beren and Luthien, bet Tolkien would have loooovvveed that.

[Triceron]

For many years I've been wondering if Tolkien was thinking about Hollywood when naming Eregion, which in the text of LoTR is described the "Land of Holly".

A place of great creativity, birthing both many wonders and terrible powers capable of reshaping the World...

Holly has mythological and symbolic meanings to it, mostly being that of peace and good will in Celtic mythology. This was later repurposed by Christians for religious holidays, like Christmas.

So Eregion could have a symbolic connection to peace and goodwill.

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Its called context. Tolkien doesn't have this message in his stories. So when you take it and shove it forcefully into his story, it becomes an allegory, and since it is a big ticket item in modern politics, it would thus be referred to as a a modern allegory being used in his story. Like seriously does men complaining about elves taking their jobs sound in ANY MEASURE like Tolkien/something Tolkien wrote? If you think yes I encourage you to reread all his works before typing up an answer.

The most damning thing about it is Galadriel had nothing to do with it. It was all Halbrand's fault, and he's Human....

And they don't seem to bring this up any more after that. So if anything it looks like they just invented a problem that they wanted Ar Pharazon to conveniently solve to show he's the 'voice of the people'.

[NineSpine]

Its called context. Tolkien doesn't have this message in his stories. So when you take it and shove it forcefully into his story, it becomes an allegory, and since it is a big ticket item in modern politics, it would thus be referred to as a a modern allegory being used in his story. Like seriously does men complaining about elves taking their jobs sound in ANY MEASURE like Tolkien/something Tolkien wrote? If you think yes I encourage you to reread all his works before typing up an answer.

No I wouldn't, but nice whataboutism, glad to see you have no real defense. Also it is a key theme of the story about corruption, especially when it comes to matters of Sauron and man, about their malleability in part due to their mortality (hey that thing that actually make the Numenoreans upset in Tolkien's work).

The sheer fucking lengths some people go to in order to defend this story is amazing, like I would have to get paid fat stacks to be this proactive in defense of the story.

Oh also anyone notice that when Galadriel talked about her first meeting with Celeborn it was a direct rip from Beren and Luthien, bet Tolkien would have loooovvveed that.

Tolkien wrote about political corruption.
Tolkien wrote about the dangers of destroying the environment.
Tolkien wrote an unfathomable amount about interracial relations.
Tolkien wrote about the horrors of war.

All of those were "modern political issues" in his day. But you rightfully do not interpret him as seeking to push a message, and instead see him as simply being informed by the world he grew up in and the historical analysis he sought to emulate in a fantasy context.

However, the minute a modern piece of work does the exact same thing Tolkien did, you take your terminally online obsession with politics and assume that that is the motivation, ignoring that anyone could do the same with Tolkien's work and interpret it as containing a ton of "modern political messages". It would be a trivial effort to interpret his work as a refutation of fascism, a statement on the importance of races working together, a warning of technology's impacts on the environment, and a host of other left wing interpretations. One would be wrong to do so, but it would be incredibly easy.

And the truth is that if his work came out today that is EXACTLY HOW YOU WOULD INTERPRET IT. You would read into it the left-wing messages you want to be outraged and relentlessly cry and whine about, and then accuse him of pushing those messages.

[Kumorii]

The showrunners themselves have said they are adapting it for the modern age and changing it to reflect our world today...
Not sure why people argue against it when they clearly stated it would happen.

Biggest problem of it was that it came out of nowhere and was only done to make a statement and, as Triceron mentioned, prop Pharazon up.
It was just lazy and poorly done. Take something that people mock in the real world and have the character stand against it. Boom, easy. Established him as a "good guy" for now.
Changing it to elves rather than Halbrand, who he did have a beef with, made it even worse. I think that was done just so they could squeeze out some more sympathy for her.
They could've used "outsiders trying to take our jobs" and it would make more sense.

[NineSpine]

The showrunners themselves have said they are adapting it for the modern age and changing it to reflect our world today...
Not sure why people argue against it when they clearly stated it would happen.

Biggest problem of it was that it came out of nowhere and was only done to make a statement and, as Triceron mentioned, prop Pharazon up.
It was just lazy and poorly done. Take something that people mock in the real world and have the character stand against it. Boom, easy. Established him as a "good guy" for now.
Changing it to elves rather than Halbrand, who he did have a beef with, made it even worse. I think that was done just so they could squeeze out some more sympathy for her.
They could've used "outsiders trying to take our jobs" and it would make more sense.

There is a difference between "adapting it for the modern age and reflecting our world today" and "pushing a political message through allegory". Tolkien's work was inspired by the world he lived in and the modern events of the time. He didn't exist in a vacuum. Translating that to an interpretation of his work as some allegorical political message about fascism would be insane, even though it is undoubtably true that Tolkien living during the first age of fascism informed his work.

But people who want to whine, want to cry, want to bitch, want to moan, want to play the victim, want to see their terminally online political bogeymen around every corner, will interpret *anything* modern in a way that lets them engage in their childish little aggrievement bitchfests.

[Xath]

Which has nothing to do with real world mythology and history you previously said is how Tolkien wanted his work to be treated. You are deflecting to his framing device to backpedal from your own statement that proves you wrong. Real world myths and history have been adapted many many times.



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It is though because the fandom doesn't just include The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and few others published by JRR as canon. They include the Silmarillion in that and that was finished by his son. Just look at how many still grumble at Rings of Power not following "canon" when it couldn't be canon since most of the stuff it diverges from was in work published after his death. The appendices just have brief passages.

Sil is from his notes someone who has admitted they haven't finished lotr should not be trying to take a posistion on authority in literally anything dealing with Tolkien.

[rhorle]

They could've used "outsiders trying to take our jobs" and it would make more sense.

The elves are outsiders. The compressed timeline also has the scene referencing the resentment and dislike of elves that came about during the second age.

[DarkAmbient]

There is a difference between "adapting it for the modern age and reflecting our world today" and "pushing a political message through allegory". Tolkien's work was inspired by the world he lived in and the modern events of the time. He didn't exist in a vacuum. Translating that to an interpretation of his work as some allegorical political message about fascism would be insane, even though it is undoubtably true that Tolkien living during the first age of fascism informed his work.

But people who want to whine, want to cry, want to bitch, want to moan, want to play the victim, want to see their terminally online political bogeymen around every corner, will interpret *anything* modern in a way that lets them engage in their childish little aggrievement bitchfests.

This really just seems to be a case of you offloading your ire onto someone not because you vehemently disagree with their opinion about this show but because you perceive them as having different politics to you. Your last line is wonderfully ironic.

[bledgor]

Tolkien wrote about political corruption.
Tolkien wrote about the dangers of destroying the environment.
Tolkien wrote an unfathomable amount about interracial relations.
Tolkien wrote about the horrors of war.

All of those were "modern political issues" in his day. But you rightfully do not interpret him as seeking to push a message, and instead see him as simply being informed by the world he grew up in and the historical analysis he sought to emulate in a fantasy context.

However, the minute a modern piece of work does the exact same thing Tolkien did, you take your terminally online obsession with politics and assume that that is the motivation, ignoring that anyone could do the same with Tolkien's work and interpret it as containing a ton of "modern political messages". It would be a trivial effort to interpret his work as a refutation of fascism, a statement on the importance of races working together, a warning of technology's impacts on the environment, and a host of other left wing interpretations. One would be wrong to do so, but it would be incredibly easy.

And the truth is that if his work came out today that is EXACTLY HOW YOU WOULD INTERPRET IT. You would read into it the left-wing messages you want to be outraged and relentlessly cry and whine about, and then accuse him of pushing those messages.

No it isn't. You fucking try to whataboutism because you have no valid defense, and then have to attack others and try to force words/thoughts into them to continue your tirade. It is hilarious you then go on to make a post about whining and crying when that is what you are doing. I pointed out an obvious allegory that everyone else but you seems to agree with, but no we are all wrong.

Funny you think I hate only left-wing messages, or that all modern messages are left wing I guess with your last random whine.

This really just seems to be a case of you offloading your ire onto someone not because you vehemently disagree with their opinion about this show but because you perceive them as having different politics to you. Your last line is wonderfully ironic.

Also this.

[rhorle]

Sil is from his notes someone who has admitted they haven't finished lotr should not be trying to take a posistion on authority in literally anything dealing with Tolkien.

You perfectly illustrate how canon is flexible and negotiable despite you saying it wasn't previously. I'm not taking the position here you are. It is silly to now be dismissive of your own words just because I'm holding you to them.

[Myradin]

Honestly I think the "elves taking our jobs" line would have worked if Galadriel was the one trying to get work, or was the one who pissed him off in some way. Or maybe later in the story if more elves had come to like open trade or something with them.

Instead he's ranting and raving about losing their jobs because a guy who happened to be on a boat with one got in a scuff with him.

Its like an american 500 years ago was complaining the chinese were coming to take their jobs because he got in a fight with a british person who happened to be found on the same boat as a chinese person.

It feels forced because it is. It doesn't make sense with the current story.

[NineSpine]

This really just seems to be a case of you offloading your ire onto someone not because you vehemently disagree with their opinion about this show but because you perceive them as having different politics to you. Your last line is wonderfully ironic.

Ah the "I know you are but what am I!" defense.

[bledgor]

Honestly I think the "elves taking our jobs" line would have worked if Galadriel was the one trying to get work, or was the one who pissed him off in some way. Or maybe later in the story if more elves had come to like open trade or something with them.

Instead he's ranting and raving about losing their jobs because a guy who happened to be on a boat with one got in a scuff with him.

Its like an american 500 years ago was complaining the chinese were coming to take their jobs because he got in a fight with a british person who happened to be found on the same boat as a chinese person.

It feels forced because it is. It doesn't make sense with the current story.

Stop using logic, only ninespine's thoughts are allowed. Honestly I fell for it and entertained a troll, deserve the stupid responses.

[rhorle]

Instead he's ranting and raving about losing their jobs because a guy who happened to be on a boat with one got in a scuff with him.

A guy who is being treated "special" because of his association with the elf. He even advises the queen on battle plans. Tries to steal or get instant access to the guild. A fear of elves taking jobs doesn't have to mean literal elves. It can also include their hand-picked people getting business and forcing the non-special ones out of work.

[Kumorii]

This really just seems to be a case of you offloading your ire onto someone not because you vehemently disagree with their opinion about this show but because you perceive them as having different politics to you. Your last line is wonderfully ironic.

I doubt they will see the irony in their post. There's more crying and whining in that post alone than all other posts combined saying it's an allegory and a bit on the nose that felt out of place in how it was presented.

Won't even bother replying. This will probably go back and forth for 5+ pages if it is or isn't...

[NineSpine]

No it isn't. You fucking try to whataboutism because you have no valid defense, and then have to attack others and try to force words/thoughts into them to continue your tirade. It is hilarious you then go on to make a post about whining and crying when that is what you are doing. I pointed out an obvious allegory that everyone else but you seems to agree with, but no we are all wrong.

Funny you think I hate only left-wing messages, or that all modern messages are left wing I guess with your last random whine.

Also this.

Putting aside that you clearly don't know what "whataboutism" is...

Right, it's an "obvious allegory" when modern creators do it, but curiously Tolkien is not held to the same standard. And we both know it is because if you apply your exact same logic to Tolkien's work, you could criticize it for being a heavy handed left wing critique of fascism and racism, or you could go in the other direction and criticize it as racist. Why? Because anyone who wants to can read their obnoxious personal politics into it if that is their goal, and that is your goal, just like it is the goal of everyone with the a brain dead "Tolkien was racist" take. You are no better than those people, because you are doing the exact same thing they do.

And that's why you don't have any actual argument or defense in your response. Notice how you didn't explain why it is different for Tolkien or refute a single point I made. All you did was whine about whataboutism and say "NO U".

[eschatological]

It's weird, when C.S. Lewis makes obvious Christian supremacy allegories, and the evils of Islam in the Tarkaans who worship Tash, no one says anything about him pushing a political agenda. Mainly because it's a "normalized" agenda.

[NineSpine]

Honestly I think the "elves taking our jobs" line would have worked if Galadriel was the one trying to get work, or was the one who pissed him off in some way. Or maybe later in the story if more elves had come to like open trade or something with them.

Instead he's ranting and raving about losing their jobs because a guy who happened to be on a boat with one got in a scuff with him.

Its like an american 500 years ago was complaining the chinese were coming to take their jobs because he got in a fight with a british person who happened to be found on the same boat as a chinese person.

It feels forced because it is. It doesn't make sense with the current story.

If you can't imagine Americans being so freaked out by economic instability that they take it out on Chinese people, I have a story about the late 19th century to tell you.

Honestly, you couldn't have picked a worse example. Americans tried to blame everything on a relatively small number of Chinese immigrants that most Americans never even saw or interacted with, but it became a massive national panic nonetheless.

[Myradin]

A guy who is being treated "special" because of his association with the elf. He even advises the queen on battle plans. Tries to steal or get instant access to the guild. A fear of elves taking jobs doesn't have to mean literal elves. It can also include their hand-picked people getting business and forcing the non-special ones out of work.

Except he had had no special treatment at that point. At most he got an audience with the queen, where he asked for nothing. He then left, tried to get a job, tried to steal the crest, and end up in a fight. He then ended up in jail where they seemed convinced to let him rot until the tree convinced the queen that Galadriel was right which happened AFTER this scene.

Also if special treatment had anything to do with his complaints, maybe he should have mentioned that rather than going off on a tyrade about elven physical ability.

If you can't imagine Americans being so freaked out by economic instability that they take it out on Chinese people, I have a story about the late 19th century to tell you.

Honestly, you couldn't have picked a worse example. Americans tried to blame everything on a relatively small number of Chinese immigrants that most Americans never even saw or interacted with, but it became a massive national panic nonetheless.

There was still significantly more interaction between the chinese and the americans that prompted this. Certainly more than "I got into a brawl with a thief who had a chinese friend".

Again, I don't have a problem with the show showing racism towards the elves. I have a problem where it comes out of nowhere.

[rhorle]

Also if special treatment had anything to do with his complaints, maybe he should have mentioned that rather than going off on a tyrade about elven physical ability.

Again it is also referencing the resentment the Numenorians had of Elves. Something that has been building for a while and eventually causes their downfall when Sauron convinces them to "go to war" with Valinor. Eru himself intercedes to stop them, makes the world round, and buries the island. That speech isn't even the only "anti-elf" thing shown on the show.