Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Xath]

It's weird, when C.S. Lewis makes obvious Christian supremacy allegories, and the evils of Islam in the Tarkaans who worship Tash, no one says anything about him pushing a political agenda. Mainly because it's a "normalized" agenda.

Or because those books are sixty years old. Choose a better point of attack holy crap lol. Lewis's last book that he fully wrote himself was published in freaking 1956 with Chronicles published between 1949 and 1954 and yes Horse and his Boy absolutely has some very questionable parts.

[OwenBurton]

Anyways, the lore of the show being in shambles whether you compare it to Tolkien's works or not aside, the writing and editing of the show is enough to sink it...Honestly, I'm curious how they're going to pad out the next episode considering how little development there will be. But don't let your hearts be troubled, Galadriel is finally going to do something that any sane person would've done 5-6 episodes ago despite a character constantly saying she was wrong about it...

I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

I will say though that Amazon is a multinational corporation with billions of dollars and its share of past scandals and allegations of considerable employee mistreatment. I also use Amazon occasionally, but that does certainly not make me blind to its moral failings and past mistakes, some progressive Democrats have strongly criticized its policies in the past. We shouldn't let fantasy entertainment blind us to some of the real issues at hand also, they are still a real manifestation of very extreme and unchecked capitalism.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ions-warehouse
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/u...e-workers.html

Anyway, I watched several more episodes, and there was some improvement, I admit, Numenor was very impressive and beautiful, but the show itself still seems somewhat lacklustre and average at best, nothing that is breathtaking enough for me to view it as a timeless masterpiece.

[rhorle]

Well, considering how the writers were hired, we know it wasn't for their ability to write. Prior to coming onto RoP to write, they both had only one uncredited writing role on JJ Abram's Star Trek Beyond movie... that's it.

You mean the show runners. The writers have more acclaim. In addition to the show runners there is Gennifer Hutchison, Helen Shang, Jason Cahill, Justin Doble, Bryan Cogman, Stephany Folsom, and Glenise Mullins.

[eschatological]

Or because those books are sixty years old. Choose a better point of attack holy crap lol. Lewis's last book that he fully wrote himself was published in freaking 1956 with Chronicles published between 1949 and 1954 and yes Horse and his Boy absolutely has some very questionable parts.

Three of the Narnia books had more recent movies than LOTR (though older than the Hobbit movies). Still didn't hear about it then, although to be fair, those three movies didn't have much to do with the countries outside of Narnia - except for the fantastical sort of people met on Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

[Xath]

Three of the Narnia books had more recent movies than LOTR (though older than the Hobbit movies). Still didn't hear about it then, although to be fair, those three movies didn't have much to do with the countries outside of Narnia - except for the fantastical sort of people met on Voyage of the Dawn Treader.

Almost like there's a reason why the movies skip Horse and His Boy. Even the BBC adapt that I watched as a kid didn't have it. They did Lion, Prince Caspian, Voyage, and Silver Chair.

[eschatological]

A little off-topic, but I wonder why they never did The Magician's Nephew, since it's the creation story of Narnia and ties directly to the old Professor from Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.

I guess they want to stay away from the blatantly religious ones (Magician's Nephew, the creation story, A Horse and His Boy, the xenophobic "other religions bad" one, and The Last Battle, the apocalyptic one).

[rogoth]

This is, again, a gripe about HOW things are being adapted - the problem is, people on your side of this argument are suggesting political allegory has no place in the adaptation because there wasn't political allegory in the original. There was.

If you accept that the adaptation will be different because, as the showrunners stated, they want to update it for modern times, then the question becomes about what the changes do to affect the meaning of the actions.

For example, in both Tolkien's work and this new work, the Numenoreans were mad at the elves. Their reason for being mad at the elves was.....illogical. It was based on characteristics of elves that the elves had no control over, that were inherent to who they were - it is, essentially, racism/speciesism. That hatred rankles through Numenor and leads to its downfall. In the show, I'd say they actually tamed the illogical-ness of the Numenoreans. They tie it to economic fear. It certainly doesn't have the impact, and can be more muddled than outright elvish discrimination because they're elves, and in that way, it dilutes the main message that is trying to be conveyed to the audience: the Numenoreans are illogically hostile to these elves and their allies, and this fear and hatred is a problem that will lead to their downfall.

When Isildur fails to throw the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, we want to know why - background information from Tolkien suggests this illogical inferiority complex had something to do with it, leading to his desire to grasp power/dominion over elves. Going forward in the show, the main motivation (the irrational dislike of elves) continues, but grounds it more in....well, real-ish issues. Job security is something very modern, and admittedly in societies like this it's a bit out of place because economics were much more simple. Whether that rings true as a reason why Isildur doesn't throw the ring in the fire is left to be seen, but I can definitely see it being diminished because the "irrationality" is so muddled and messy. It's like those Hatfield vs McCoy feuds where after a couple centuries, you're wondering why the hell they're still fighting.

yeah, the problem here is that, that allegory doesn't fit with the woke political messaging of 'how our world looks today' lindsey weber style, meaning that if they had actually stuck to the original works and actually you know, ADAPTED THE FUCKING WORK, then all of that 'archaic allegory' wouldn't work for the messaging these clowns in charge of the circus want to present, how does the anti war allegory work to push the diversity rhetoric these muppets are pushing?, how does the anti industrialisation allegory work at pushing the modern message of diversity and inclusion that these muppets are pushing above all else?, how does the allegory of good winning the day over evil and coming together through their trials to emerge stronger on the other side help with pushing the diversity and inclusion message these muppets are adamant on pushing?, if you can come up with anything resembling a rational explanation of how the old 'allegory of Tolkien' can be used to represent the abhorrent bullshit messaging being pushed from modern day america as the literal antithesis of what Tolkien would have wanted for the world i'm all fucking ears my guy, because short of doing extreme level mental gymnastics i can't come to a reasonable explanation to these questions.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

I will say though that Amazon is a multinational corporation with billions of dollars and its share of past scandals and allegations of considerable employee mistreatment. I also use Amazon occasionally, but that does certainly not make me blind to its moral failings and past mistakes, some progressive Democrats have strongly criticized its policies in the past. We shouldn't let fantasy entertainment blind us to some of the real issues at hand also, they are still a manifestion of extreme and unchecked capitalism.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ions-warehouse
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/u...e-workers.html

Anyway, I watched several more episodes, and there was some improvement, I admit, Numenor was very impressive and beautiful, but the show itself still seems somewhat lacklustre and average at best, nothing that is breathtaking enough for me to view it as a timeless masterpiece.

as a born and raised Englishman i can tell you this show is a clusterfuck of epic proportions, everyone i know that was actually looking forward to this being released has seen it for what it is and is appalled by the state of it, whether that's the forced tokenism of the diversity hires, the sheer amateur writing meaning that the show drags on and on and doesn't actually lead anywhere, down to the comically bad costumes and action scenes being so badly done that most of my friends who have watched the show said not to bother as it's just a cheap mess.

as an aside to your other comment, i despise and detest amazon as a company and the upper management in my eyes should all be shot for the inhumane and abhorrent conditions they have forced on their workforce over the years, that said though due to how it is a monopoly holder of the market it operates in i'm forced to use it for certain items because they are either not obtainable where i live otherwise, or are too expensive to be obtainable meaning that until such a time as their monopoly is broken i'm forced to keep using them for products.

[Xath]

A little off-topic, but I wonder why they never did The Magician's Nephew, since it's the creation story of Narnia and ties directly to the old Professor from Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.

I guess they want to stay away from the blatantly religious ones (Magician's Nephew, the creation story, A Horse and His Boy, the xenophobic "other religions bad" one, and The Last Battle, the apocalyptic one).

Couple reasons for a lot of people Lion is the first one that they read and was in fact published before Magician. Magician just comes first in the chronology (sixth one in publication order). It's also way heavy on religious themes and would be prohibitively expensive to make in comparison to the others. The BBC series for example heavily stretched itself making Silver Chair and the underground scenes really didn't look great and that's not a tenth of what they would need to do to pull off Magician. It's also way less known to justify the cost same as Battle.

[Raisei]

Honestly I think the "elves taking our jobs" line would have worked if Galadriel was the one trying to get work, or was the one who pissed him off in some way. Or maybe later in the story if more elves had come to like open trade or something with them.

Instead he's ranting and raving about losing their jobs because a guy who happened to be on a boat with one got in a scuff with him.

Its like an american 500 years ago was complaining the chinese were coming to take their jobs because he got in a fight with a british person who happened to be found on the same boat as a chinese person.

It feels forced because it is. It doesn't make sense with the current story.

This.

It feels forced because it IS forced. The writers consider themselves activists and not writers of a show that has to fullfill standards of storytelling. "The elves are taking our jobs" is only one example. There is also the white human shouting at the black elf to "forget the past already", definately not an allergory either.

Tolkien was socialized in a world of war and the rise of socialism and faschism, so yes, his work is influenced by that to a small degree. It is impossible to grow up without being influenced by the things around you. You could just as well critize him for writing in english.

But, there is a big difference between that and purposefully including allegories, because you have a message to push. I know the writers of the show do not see this difference anymore because in Hollywood you can no longer be just a writer. You have to have the right message in your work otherwise you get crucified on Twitter because someone will be offended.

As viewers I think we have a responsibility of pointing out how this system is stiffling art and creativity and how much of an insult it is to the real writers that created franchises like this. There has been so little good coming out of Hollywood in the last years that it is a crying shame. If people want to be activists then write pamphlets and see if that works. Leave the writing of movies and shows to the people that actually care about things like plot and don't see them simply as a vehicle of ramming a their message down people's throats.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

From Germany I can tell you that I haven't met a single person who really likes the show. The same goes for my other european and beyond friends. Be them from Britain, Belgium, Sweden, Bulgaria... guess it really is just an american thing that they feel the need to defend it to the death.

[molliewoof]

I'm honestly curious as to whether most British people (you know, Tolkien was actually one of them) and most Europeans, Australians, non-Americans actually enjoyed the show or not. So far the strongest defenders AND critics seem to be from mostly Americans fighting over weird culture war issues online, it's very difficult for me to tell whether most people outside the USA, where Amazon is based after all, thinks it's a worthy successor to Jackson and Tolkien's creative work. If any non-American Tolkien fan here can tell me what most of their friends think about the show, here or privately, I would be very grateful!

I will say though that Amazon is a multinational corporation with billions of dollars and its share of past scandals and allegations of considerable employee mistreatment. I also use Amazon occasionally, but that does certainly not make me blind to its moral failings and past mistakes, some progressive Democrats have strongly criticized its policies in the past. We shouldn't let fantasy entertainment blind us to some of the real issues at hand also, they are still a manifestion of extreme and unchecked capitalism.
https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...ions-warehouse
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/15/u...e-workers.html

Anyway, I watched several more episodes, and there was some improvement, I admit, Numenor was very impressive and beautiful, but the show itself still seems somewhat lacklustre and average at best, nothing that is breathtaking enough for me to view it as a timeless masterpiece.

British here, I've read the books years ago and think there are better now but realise why the books are held in such high acclaim.

I think it's ok, a five or six. It's not boring or anything but sometimes I find myself shaking my head at it, maybe once or twice an episode. Again I'm not that invested in lotr

I know some people that like it, some that dislike it.

That wasn't the most definitive statement I've ever written lol

[rogoth]

First of all, that you represent the same country as me is depressing AF. Secondly, you watched 15 minutes of episode 1, kindly fuck off.


As a British dude, I'm enjoying it well enough, yes. It has problems, but not big enough problems to stop me watching each week. I'm certainly not hate-watching or crying about the "woke"ness of it all.

first of all, fuck off, second of all, thanks for letting everyone know you live in the past and are unable as well as unwilling to actually live in the present, lastly, i have watched this entire train wreck of a show up to present episode, it's a sick joke, but clearly you're part of the demographic it's aimed at, uneducated, ill informed, mindless twats who will suck on that corporate phallus ignoring the blatant cash grab tokenism riddled mess that it presented with prior to release and lived up to in all it's glory post release, but again you're one of that small demographic that enjoy being told what to believe in and blindly accept a block of shit wrapped in gold as a gold bar.

[hulkgor]

first of all, fuck off, second of all, thanks for letting everyone know you live in the past and are unable as well as unwilling to actually live in the present, lastly, i have watched this entire train wreck of a show up to present episode, it's a sick joke, but clearly you're part of the demographic it's aimed at, uneducated, ill informed, mindless twats who will suck on that corporate phallus ignoring the blatant cash grab tokenism riddled mess that it presented with prior to release and lived up to in all it's glory post release, but again you're one of that small demographic that enjoy being told what to believe in and blindly accept a block of shit wrapped in gold as a gold bar.

Someone is having a bad day (very often).

Get a grip.

(also, extremely funny that even with all that hate piled up, you watch it religiously)

[Hitei]

first of all, fuck off, second of all, thanks for letting everyone know you live in the past and are unable as well as unwilling to actually live in the present, lastly, i have watched this entire train wreck of a show up to present episode, it's a sick joke, but clearly you're part of the demographic it's aimed at, uneducated, ill informed, mindless twats who will suck on that corporate phallus ignoring the blatant cash grab tokenism riddled mess that it presented with prior to release and lived up to in all it's glory post release, but again you're one of that small demographic that enjoy being told what to believe in and blindly accept a block of shit wrapped in gold as a gold bar.

Not sure "uneducated, ill informed, mindless twats" is the best ad hominem to go with as someone who can't manage basic punctuation or capitalization.

[jonnysensible]

first of all, fuck off, second of all, thanks for letting everyone know you live in the past and are unable as well as unwilling to actually live in the present, lastly, i have watched this entire train wreck of a show up to present episode, it's a sick joke, but clearly you're part of the demographic it's aimed at, uneducated, ill informed, mindless twats who will suck on that corporate phallus ignoring the blatant cash grab tokenism riddled mess that it presented with prior to release and lived up to in all it's glory post release, but again you're one of that small demographic that enjoy being told what to believe in and blindly accept a block of shit wrapped in gold as a gold bar.

tory detected

[Syegfryed]

I actually know one person who is enjoying this clusterfuck of a show, we "discover" this strange specimen when discussing house of the dragon and he mention Rings of Onion, Dude is actually deeply enjoying, and his main things are: 1. its fantasy, 2. it have swords, armors, boats and "fights". Basically, one of those dragged in by the visuals and don't care about anything else, cause when i asked him to explain the plot and he said, "big fight last episode' and thats it.

So, there is rly a pattern of who would like this and what the public was aimed for.

[cface]

I actually know one person who is enjoying this clusterfuck of a show, we "discover" this strange specimen when discussing house of the dragon and he mention Rings of Onion, Dude is actually deeply enjoying, and his main things are: 1. its fantasy, 2. it have swords, armors, boats and "fights". Basically, one of those dragged in by the visuals and don't care about anything else, cause when i asked him to explain the plot and he said, "big fight last episode' and thats it.

So, there is rly a pattern of who would like this and what the public was aimed for.

This is the public its aimed for, and I'm left out of it, which explains why I dislike this show so much. Someone just wants to see high end production on their fancy big TV, and don't care about bonding with any of the characters.
Not sure how it's possible to get so bad writing in such a big supershow, but it has to be their aim, to write the show down, or else the same guys as your friend, would probably yawn and not feel impressed by his TV.

It just wasnt our turn to enjoy a good tolkien show, but it will come I'm sure.

[InfiniteCharger]

Which is false since he broke up his work by only publishing some of it and selling the rights to some of it. His sale of rights didn't restrict to just "known stories". If the legendarium unpublished still represents his will then he would be fine with the parts of it being adapted. Because he already established he was fine with adaptations because of selling rights to make adaptations. You keep arbitrarily changing his "intent" based on the argument you are making at the time.

He did not. You keep arguing against reality. This is insanity. Just agree to disagree and stop replying. You aren't adding any new facts with your incessant repeating of your own made up nonsense.

The facts are that the Hobbit was a book that he never intended to publish. It was publishers who convinced him to publish it. And as a result of the popularity of it, they asked him for a sequel, which is how the Lord of the Rings came about. Those two works are complete stories and the only thing that he actually gave rights to for film. The rest of the legendarium was his own personal effort to expand on the history, culture and lore of Middle Earth and Arda which he never finished, which is why those other books were never published. It was his life's work as he explained in his own letters and therefore part of a complete history of a fictional world as told through various stories written by "other minds and hands" within the world of Arda over time. To sit here and argue that all of that was supposed to be broken up and reimagined by different companies and different people in different ways is false. He never intended for that to happen. Those works were published later by his son after he died, so that readers could see the ideas and concepts that he had in mind for the history of Arda which was vastly influential in helping define the genre of High Fantasy and by extension DnD and MMOs. They weren't published because Tolkien himself intended them to be used to make movies or TV shows and that is from the entire legendarium. And of course that means that he didn't spend all his life creating that legendarium to have someone take the appendices to totally trash his life's work by making up an alternate history separate from what he wrote.

Like I said, you are wrong and I disagree so please stop replying to me repeating yourself.

[bledgor]

This is the public its aimed for, and I'm left out of it, which explains why I dislike this show so much. Someone just wants to see high end production on their fancy big TV, and don't care about bonding with any of the characters.
Not sure how it's possible to get so bad writing in such a big supershow, but it has to be their aim, to write the show down, or else the same guys as your friend, would probably yawn and not feel impressed by his TV.

It just wasnt our turn to enjoy a good tolkien show, but it will come I'm sure.

Like a lot of modern media, the undertone is don't think just consume.

[rhorle]

Those two works are complete stories and the only thing that he actually gave rights to for film.

Right. So he was okay with splitting his work up piecemeal (separating it from the legendarium) and having people adapt it (selling the rights to the published works). His son then finished some of his work and sold some rights. The Estate then sold more rights. All following the a similar pattern of work being done piecemeal and selling rights for adaptations. Tolkien sold his rights so anyone could trash his "life's work". Saying that he made a distinction between which work could or could not be "trashed" is silly. He still sold the rights to allow that for his main work. Auxiliary work being held to a different standard is silly.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you are free to stop. Repeating that you want to stop over and over while continuing to respond is yet another contradiction you've made.

[InfiniteCharger]

Right. So he was okay with splitting his work up piecemeal (separating it from the legendarium) and having people adapt it (selling the rights to the published works). His son then finished some of his work and sold some rights. The Estate then sold more rights. All following the a similar pattern of work being done piecemeal and selling rights for adaptations. Tolkien sold his rights so anyone could trash his "life's work". Saying that he made a distinction between which work could or could not be "trashed" is silly. He still sold the rights to allow that for his main work. Auxiliary work being held to a different standard is silly.

If you don't want to continue the conversation you are free to stop. Repeating that you want to stop over and over while continuing to respond is yet another contradiction you've made.

Those two books being published separately does not mean the story was piecemeal. How is it that you have such a problem with facts that you have to constantly produce falsehoods? The Hobbit and LOTR were two completed works of fiction that go TOGETHER as a continuing story. How is that a piecemeal story? One is literally a continuation of the other, which reflects that his story was not piecemeal. The appendices were not published separately and not complete stories in and of themselves. He never intended for the appendices to be taken out of the LOTR to be used to make a totally made up story of the 2nd age, separate from the entire Legendarium he spent his life writing. He did not spend his whole life defining languages, geographies, genealogies and histories to make something piecemeal in his legendarium.

That is what I mean about you continuing to repeat falsehoods, no matter how many ways you try and say it. And I disagree. You just like spreading your own misinformation as fact....