[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Rageonit]

They could add a choice node somewhere for Verdant Embrace. One option could make it a round trip (fly to player, heal, fly back) and then add something else next to it (a cooldown reduction). But really unless you have immunity while flying (which would be VERY OP for evoker) you'd still trigger any number of raid and even dungeon encounter mechanics.

Or rather, a choice node that makes Verdant Embrace a stationary spell? You only send a ghost of yourself to the player, or something like that

[Nymrohd]

Or rather, a choice node that makes Verdant Embrace a stationary spell? You only send a ghost of yourself to the player, or something like that

I guess. I mean you are sacrificing the mobility potential in the encounter that way. Still, something needs to be done. Cause right now the talent tree at least assumes you will be using it frequently if not on CD. Fixing the problem with the spell is easier than reducing its impact on the tree.

[Nyel]

You paint it like all the reviews and feedback are universally critical, which is not true. I do agree with some of the reviews, and I don't agree with others. I advise you to do the same, instead of coming here with a compilation of all complaints you've seen or heard.

On a different note, video of a Prevoker doing Dathea - the fight that's been called the worst for Prevoker, because of spread and area denial.

Again, it's not if it's doable, it is what an Evoker has to achieve to be at least as good as other healers (and in most cases not even that).

I'm not sure what you wanted to prove with that video, the Evoker is exceedingly running around, it looks hectic and chaotic and straight out unfun (at least from my perspective). Towards the end she's even using Verdant Embrace with the AoE to jump right into the melee camp with the AoE while she just wanted to heal one guy. Looks like fun putting yourself in danger while almost killing all the others around you, right (you even said it in the comment below)? Verdant Embrace should not put you in the place of your target, it should be some kind of "projection" of yourself. As you said, but I didn't read the entire thread before I posted this, lol.

Or rather, a choice node that makes Verdant Embrace a stationary spell? You only send a ghost of yourself to the player, or something like that

This ability will be such a killer in higher mythic+ and heroic/mythic raid environments because it's so unreliable and straight out dangerous while being Prevokers only strong ST heal.

Not all reviews are critical about Preservation in general. If they look at it just from an Evoker perspective, all say that the spec is a lot of fun and mostly has a nice toolkit. Hey, I'm saying that, too. The issues start the moment you compare Preservation to any other healing spec. And that's what I am saying from the beginning. Don't look at Prevoker from your Evoker echo chamber, look at it from a competitive point of view. An easy fix is increasing the range to 40 yards and call it a day. Does it solve all the problems? No. But most of them. Compared to Devastation, Preservation is indeed in a very good spot - which says a lot about Blizzard's class design for this class.

[Rageonit]

I'm not sure what you wanted to prove with that video

Why would you assume I want to prove anything? I think this is a proper thread to link videos with Prevoker players showcasing their talents and spell usage in an actual raid environment. So there you go, Prevoker healing a spread fight.

I have no comment for the "in most cases can't even be as good as other healers". I have no clue what actual cases you're talking about, and I'm tired with discussing things like talents and spells in a vacuum. At the moment it serves no practical purpose (especially here).

And what echo chamber do you mean? I have extensive experience with several healing specs on all levels of PvE gameplay (not really a PvP fan).

[Nyel]

Why would you assume I want to prove anything? I think this is a proper thread to link videos with Prevoker players showcasing their talents and spell usage in an actual raid environment. So there you go, Prevoker healing a spread fight.

I have no comment for the "in most cases can't even be as good as other healers". I have no clue what actual cases you're talking about, and I'm tired with discussing things like talents and spells in a vacuum. At the moment it serves no practical purpose (especially here).

And what echo chamber do you mean? I have extensive experience with several healing specs on all levels of PvE gameplay (not really a PvP fan).

You create the vacuum by refusing to pit Evoker against other healers. It's not me who's looking at Prevoker with tunnel vision. Especially if you have extensive experience with several healing specs on all levels of PvE gameplay you must see all the shortcomings, yet you're waiting for actual proof via raid logs (or whatever)?

[Rageonit]

You create the vacuum by refusing to pit Evoker against other healers. It's not me who's looking at Prevoker with tunnel vision. Especially if you have extensive experience with several healing specs on all levels of PvE gameplay you must see all the shortcomings, yet you're waiting for actual proof via raid logs (or whatever)?

No, I gave you specific examples where an Evoker can shine compared to other healers, but you either 1) ignored it or 2) disproved my claims offering no actual data. Even when presented with a video of a Prevoker healing spread fight all you came up with was: "the Evoker is exceedingly running around", which is a lolworthy comment in itself (of course the Evoker is running, its range is shorter, duh). Also, claiming that the Evoker has to do "more" for the same effect is a poorly thought out argument, since, as evidenced by logs, all healers active time is close to 100%, so in essence, they work exactly the same amount - the only difference is Evoker's skills more often involve movement. And that's not inherently bad - it's a different style of play. If you don't like it, don't play it?

You also seem quite oblivious to the fact that at the moment it's completely green Evoker players competing in raids with players having years of experience with their specs, but I guess that's not relevant enough for you.

Also, I don't mind a class having some shortcomings. Yeah, yeah, Evoker is worse in everything, we've heard ya.

[Teriz]

From the video @Rageonit posted;

Q:How did you find this fight as a Prevoker? Obviously there are some concerns about its range and this is mostly a spread fight with plenty of area denial mechanics. Was it still fun to heal, or did you feel it a bit of a hassle?

A:It was a hassle at times when ppl are spread too much but it will be better in an organized group. The boss here is pretty large so sometimes you cannot reach melee or the tank standing on the other side of the boss. However Hover is going to be an invaluable tool. It has a short cd and with 2 charges you can use it constantly to get those few players out of range. Most likely you will echo them then send heals out to the main group. The only thing is empowered spells are still clunky. I feel like they should be usable with hover because of the range limitation placed on us. So many times a mechanic can spawn on you during an empowered cast so you have to use it early or cancel.

That seems to be inline with other comments I've seen about this spec in the new raids. Also seems to be inline with Blizzard's design goal of creating a more advanced healing class.

[shammypie]

No, I gave you specific examples where an Evoker can shine compared to other healers, but you either 1) ignored it or 2) disproved my claims offering no actual data. Even when presented with a video of a Prevoker healing spread fight all you came up with was: "the Evoker is exceedingly running around", which is a lolworthy comment in itself (of course the Evoker is running, its range is shorter, duh). Also, claiming that the Evoker has to do "more" for the same effect is a poorly thought out argument, since, as evidenced by logs, all healers active time is close to 100%, so in essence, they work exactly the same amount - the only difference is Evoker's skills more often involve movement. And that's not inherently bad - it's a different style of play. If you don't like it, don't play it?

You also seem quite oblivious to the fact that at the moment it's completely green Evoker players competing in raids with players having years of experience with their specs, but I guess that's not relevant enough for you.

Also, I don't mind a class having some shortcomings. Yeah, yeah, Evoker is worse in everything, we've heard ya.

yeah i gotta agree they still tuning things and new classes go all over the place in beta. The way the tier set bonuses go bronze build will probably be the go to it has less AOE but all the tools to succeed. Most people are relying on Blossom to do their healing and as a long time resto shaman i already know that ain't gonna fly a lot of the time.

I think being clever with echo and reversion will show how good prevokers can be. The way the tier sets give reversion an extra 25% crit chance and insta LF procs, you can set up a druid hot build. For example at a base 25% crit chance reversion will crit 50% of the time and will last an average of 20s. At a 9s recharge thats 2-3 hots out. With echo regenerating at 1per4 (with talent) that's between 2 and 3 echoes. Giving us between 4 and 6 average Reversion hots. Now add in 1 cast of TA and you add 6 more echos (30% effectiveness but full duration). All of which you feed into a temporal compression that then boosts your cd reduction and gives EB for more echo and and insta LF casts. That's over half the raid covered in reversions.

Do I expect myself or anyone for that matter to be able to plan and execute this incredibly complicated style while learning a brand new fight? NOOOO. I would never be able to track all this manually without WAs. Also I don't plan on using VE as a single target heal. It's more of a self survival tool / set up for dream breath/LF cleave.

Fire breath is another tricky one. Without Life giving flame there isn't a point to casting in raid outside No damage phases. I build around it in a bronze build

[Rageonit]

Do I expect myself or anyone for that matter to be able to plan and execute this incredibly complicated style while learning a brand new fight? NOOOO. I would never be able to track all this manually without WAs. Also I don't plan on using VE as a single target heal. It's more of a self survival tool / set up for dream breath/LF cleave.

The thing I find most fascinating about the Prevoker is that, between the Echoes, Stasis and other parts of its toolkit, it can be played in so many different ways. It all depends on the situation. On a spread encounter you will be dishing out those Reversions trying to maximize the uptime and make good use of Echo/VE combos, while on a stacked fight you can go full green with Blossoms, Dream Breaths and Dream Flights (plus Temporal Anomaly). You can be very creative in how you make good use of Echoes and Stasis. It really feels like there's no "proper" build for this spec, and it definitely has A LOT of depth.

[Nyel]

No, I gave you specific examples where an Evoker can shine compared to other healers, but you either 1) ignored it or 2) disproved my claims offering no actual data. Even when presented with a video of a Prevoker healing spread fight all you came up with was: "the Evoker is exceedingly running around", which is a lolworthy comment in itself (of course the Evoker is running, its range is shorter, duh). Also, claiming that the Evoker has to do "more" for the same effect is a poorly thought out argument, since, as evidenced by logs, all healers active time is close to 100%, so in essence, they work exactly the same amount - the only difference is Evoker's skills more often involve movement. And that's not inherently bad - it's a different style of play. If you don't like it, don't play it?

You also seem quite oblivious to the fact that at the moment it's completely green Evoker players competing in raids with players having years of experience with their specs, but I guess that's not relevant enough for you.

Also, I don't mind a class having some shortcomings. Yeah, yeah, Evoker is worse in everything, we've heard ya.

I did not ignore it. I told you that Evoker is nothing special in the situations it "shines" (in your words). You presented a video that exactly showed the problems of Evoker. So I don't really see the point. I never said things were not doable, I said the work you put into to get to the same result is not justified in any way. Evoker is neither the most mobile nor the best stacked (aka its niche) healer, which completely invalidates any reasoning Blizzard gave for the 25 / 30 yard range.

In that video there were two Evokers, one Priest and a Paladin healer - funny enough for this very mobility-intensive fight they did not bring a Monk or a Druid, the by far most mobile healers around. Would be interesting to see how they perform during this battle, I guess logs will show this sooner than later.

And who said I don't like the playstyle? Again, read and comprehend my critiques. "If you don't like the playstyle"... the playstyle is not the problem I have with the class (I think Echo and Stasis are fantastic tools that make this class unique, but there are several conflicting design decisions that are questionable).

It's that there are no upsides for its downsides. No remarkable strenghts that justify all of its shortcomings. I basically say exactly this in every single post I make and it's the criticism that is universally shared by all players I've seen play Prevoker. I mean your last sentence just shows me that you have not understand the underlying issue. The 30 yard range (and empower skills) needs a justification one way or another - and this justification simply does not exist (yet). Empower spells are a burden, for Devastation moreso than for Preservation and so is the limited range. At least the range can easily get fixed. If Evoker is limited to a 30 yard range, then make it the best healer within that range. And it just isn't, neither for ST nor for group healing. So why limit the range when you don't get anything in exchange?

All the people giving negative feedback are not doing so because they hate this class. They are doing so because they want this class to be competitive, feel good and have a coherent class design. For me it's exactly the same reason I'm critical (although feedback here is pointless), I want this class to be good because I'm playing a Prevoker from day 1.

- - - Updated - - -

The thing I find most fascinating about the Prevoker is that, between the Echoes, Stasis and other parts of its toolkit, it can be played in so many different ways. It all depends on the situation.

Which healer can't? Honest question, because build diversity is the goal of the new talent system and not an Evoker-specific thing.

[Rageonit]

I did not ignore it. I told you that Evoker is nothing special in the situations it "shines" (in your words).

That's the thing. I don't need to be told things; I want examples and data that support those claims. Anyone can say anything; data is data. You didn't provide any - all your arguments are vague "other healers do it better", with nothing to support that claim. Show me a proof, the burden is on you since you seem to be absolutely certain that it's true. If you have no proof, I don't care anymore for the tit-for-tat. Like I've already said, it serves absolutely no purpose.

Which healer can't? Honest question, because build diversity is the goal of the new talent system and not an Evoker-specific thing.

No other healer can. You seem to miss the fact that Evoker's flexibility comes not only from the talents (every healer has that), but also from the interaction of its abilities. Even with the same talent build, you can play differently, depending on what you decide to Echo or Stasis. No other healer has abilities that interact with eachother on the level Evoker abilities do, period.

[Nyel]

That's the thing. I don't need to be told things; I want examples and data that support those claims. Anyone can say anything; data is data. You didn't provide any - all your arguments are vague "other healers do it better", with nothing to support that claim. Show me a proof, the burden is on you since you seem to be absolutely certain that it's true. If you have no proof, I don't care anymore for the tit-for-tat. Like I've already said, it serves absolutely no purpose.

And your arguments are based on what? Did you present data? Did you present arguments that are not vague? I mean where exactly do you get your data for your arguments from? And these are not my arguments exclusively. They are mostly the universal feedback about Preservation Evoker. From every source you can imagine.

Nivala, the Prevoker from your video, just posted another comment under that video where she made the first comment about concerns as a Prevoker. But it doesn't have as much utility as Shaman [so it will be a lot different than what you're used to] which just shows that it cannot fill the niche that it's supposed to fill when it's competing with RShaman. It can do so in a vacuum, but it'll lose when pitted against its main competitor.

No other healer can. You seem to miss the fact that Evoker's flexibility comes not only from the talents (every healer has that), but also from the interaction of its abilities. Even with the same talent build, you can play differently, depending on what you decide to Echo or Stasis. No other healer has abilities that interact with eachother on the level Evoker abilities do, period.

I'm not sure if you're serious here. Every healing spec (maybe besides Discipline) has several builds they can focus on, single target healing, group healing or utility. Evoker is absolutely nothing special in that regard.

"Interaction of its abilities" - and other classes don't have this? Sorry, all of your statement above is just false, period (your words).

So indeed let's end this, you're ignorant and resistant towards any kind of criticism or concerns from any person involved, let it be me, any of the writers on wowhead or the ones in the official feedback thread.

[Rageonit]

And your arguments are based on what? Did you present data? Did you present arguments that are not vague? I mean where exactly do you get your data for your arguments from? And these are not my arguments exclusively. They are mostly the universal feedback about Preservation Evoker. From every source you can imagine.

I think I have told you rather clearly that we have to wait for the actual data of Mythic raiding tests before making any claims about relative spec power and you laughed me off. For me, data is conclusive; for you, it's apparently superfluous, since you KNOW - before any proper testing - that Evoker is not good enough in any area. You not only have no proof of the claims you make; you also seem to think that proof is not even needed.

I'm not sure if you're serious here. Every healing spec (maybe besides Discipline) has several builds they can focus on, single target healing, group healing or utility. Evoker is absolutely nothing special in that regard.

You're arguing with yourself here, I've never claimed other healers have no flexibility in terms of specs.

"Interaction of its abilities" - and other classes don't have this? Sorry, all of your statement above is just false.

Okay then, which abilities of other healers interact with eachother on the level of Echo and Stasis?

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Prevoker on Primalist Council Heroic. Other than healing meter being dominated by Blood DK, Prevoker does well and is competitive vs other healers (Disc and MW monk). Healing numbers between the healers are actually super close (with one Prevoker being notably lower) - discounting the DK, four healers on 22k healing total at the end of the fight.

Another Prevoker POV in a smaller group, same fight, Prevoker constantly on top of the healing meter.

[Rageonit]

Preservation Evoker on Mythic Terros. Pulling out great numbers on both attempts, constantly being on top with the Holy Priest. I love the moment she Rewinds and her HPS skyrockets from 50k to 130k in a matter of seconds. Shoes how powerful CD it is.

[Rageonit]

Here's an interesting analysis of what's the actual Evoker's main flaw right now (and it's not the range).
Also, a good analysis of Devoker's mastery and why it's actually amazing, not bad (in short, it gives you incentive to target swap/plan CDs for any kind of add phases, and makes you very powerful for those phases thanks to full benefit of Mastery as soon as the adds spawn).

[Nymrohd]

Here's an interesting analysis of what's the actual Evoker's main flaw right now (and it's not the range).
Also, a good analysis of Devoker's mastery and why it's actually amazing, not bad (in short, it gives you incentive to target swap/plan CDs for any kind of add phases, and makes you very powerful for those phases thanks to full benefit of Mastery as soon as the adds spawn).

Can't watch the video but let me guess, they die if the encounter mechanics tickle them?

[Rageonit]

Can't watch the video but let me guess, they die if the encounter mechanics tickle them?

Yep. In dire need for some defensive buttons to press (or big buffs to ones they already have). Doing 15s already feels rough, and considering rewards cap at 20 this season, it doesn't look good for them - any bad unavoidable damage phase on a 20 will result in insta death. Basically, m+ testing confirmed what PvPers were saying since weeks now.

[Nymrohd]

Yep. In dire need for some defensive buttons to press (or big buffs to ones they already have). Doing 15s already feels rough, and considering rewards cap at 20 this season, it doesn't look good for them - any bad unavoidable damage phase on a 20 will result in insta death. Basically, m+ testing confirmed what PvPers were saying since weeks now.

I really was not joking when I said that they need half of the obsidian scales effect as a passive.

[Nyel]

Here's an interesting analysis of what's the actual Evoker's main flaw right now (and it's not the range).

Not being the main flaw doesn't make it no flaw. Evoker has a lot of flaws at the moment, yet Blizzard seems to ship the trainwreck of a new class as exactly that.

It will be an interesting case study to see how much they failed with Evoker and if it indeed will be less popular than Monks. A ton of players will try it at launch, but will quickly abandon it due to its overwhelming amount of shortcomings. Not sure if Blizzard actually can do something in 10.1 or will postpone any major adjustments to 11.0.

[Rageonit]

Not being the main flaw doesn't make it no flaw. Evoker has a lot of flaws at the moment, yet Blizzard seems to ship the trainwreck of a new class as exactly that.

I mean, we've all heard your mantra. Still, this guy invested 100+ hours into the Devoker and if you pay attention to his videos, you should know that he not only enjoys it, but finds it both strong and desirable for several reasons. As a side note, funny how you show up with another generic comment how the Evoker is a trainwreck, yet managed to ignore all the videos with evidence proving otherwise. Here's another one with an experienced player praising the Mastery (which you called bad on many occasions), and still no valuable input from you other than "it feels bad to do less damage as the fight goes on". Okay.

- - - Updated - - -

MadSkillz does m+ tier list for all healers - and Prevoker is S tier. Why?
+ best burst healing in the game
+ Empower abilities feel as powerful as some classes 2-3 min CDs, while being on ~30s CDs
+ being able to respond to AoE damage quicker than other healers
+ good DPS rotation that benefits healing

- fear of range being bad on spread fights

Important notes: tested all the healers on keys in the ~10 range; I'd guess that's the reason why bad defensive CDs weren't mendioned. Still, in healer spec you surely can work around it easier than in DPS spec.