are they fixing pvp for dragonflight?

[Bats]

Because rating inflation carries people later into the season

Mostly 2.1k geared people at lower ratings was the bigger struggle personally. As soon as you hit the 2.1 and upgrade, the next 200 rating or so was a breeze. Then it gets challenging again near the gladiator rating

[melzas]

Love reading these posts of people crying because they lost their massive gear advantage. Now you'll have to actually be better than others to achieve your feelings of superiority!

Saying that I'm incredibly glad gear rating requirements are gone. Getting the 2.1 from 1950 was a bigger struggle than ~2.3 starting later in a season. Deleting people with no gear in unranked PvP was also boring and unsatisfying while gearing up alts felt awful.

On paper everything they're doing so far with DF is good but we can't tell for sure until we play.

If you get stuck at 1950 and "struggle" then it's not about gear... The ilvl difference between rival II and duelist gear is what, 3 ilvl? Hardstuck players get this weird tendency to put more weight on gear than its rational.

The main difference will be felt in random BGs, it won't affect rated games much if at all. If you are a hardstuck 1950 player now, you won't get much higher in DF. If anything it will make getting rating harder because less players participating mean less rating inflation. And there will be less players pushing rating because rewards are being stripped so less reason to push. Not to mention people like you who will face the harsh truth that it wasn't the gear that was holding them back and in result will give up on PvP altogether.

- - - Updated - - -

But boosts do exist, and boosted character played badly can beat better players with less gear, be it time constraints or alts. We will all see if you are as good as you think you are next expansion. Are you excited or afraid?

Neither I probably won't bother past getting my transmogs because there is no reason to get rating anymore.

And crying about "boosted players with gear" is just a scapegoat for bad players who have to blame their failures on something because admitting 'i have to get better" requires some character.

[Sialina]

Love reading these posts of people crying because they lost their massive gear advantage. Now you'll have to actually be better than others to achieve your feelings of superiority!

Saying that I'm incredibly glad gear rating requirements are gone. Getting the 2.1 from 1950 was a bigger struggle than ~2.3 starting later in a season. Deleting people with no gear in unranked PvP was also boring and unsatisfying while gearing up alts felt awful.

On paper everything they're doing so far with DF is good but we can't tell for sure until we play.

Here is what will happen, those of us you say are "crying because gear advantage is gone" will destroy the bads, per usual, only now the bads will cry that we play FoTM classes or that "PvP has no skill anymore" or "glads are boosting" or some other trite old thing.

Here is the cold hard truth, most people suck and they have a very hard time accepting it, end of story. In legion Arena participation mid season was like 3 dudes and a dog, games took 45+ minutes to get into, and that was the most "fair" it ever was. Bads need their excuse, they need to be able to say "well, I only lost because that other player had 0.31 ilvl more than me! sure, she killed me in 0.2 seconds because I was "out of position" whatever that is, but if I had 0.31 more ilvl I would've won instead"

Gear progression is fun in MMOs, this change will still have the bads be bads and they will still get destroyed.

[Omniclass]

Here is what will happen, those of us you say are "crying because gear advantage is gone" will destroy the bads, per usual, only now the bads will cry that we play FoTM classes or that "PvP has no skill anymore" or "glads are boosting" or some other trite old thing.

Here is the cold hard truth, most people suck and they have a very hard time accepting it, end of story. In legion Arena participation mid season was like 3 dudes and a dog, games took 45+ minutes to get into, and that was the most "fair" it ever was. Bads need their excuse, they need to be able to say "well, I only lost because that other player had 0.31 ilvl more than me! sure, she killed me in 0.2 seconds because I was "out of position" whatever that is, but if I had 0.31 more ilvl I would've won instead"

Gear progression is fun in MMOs, this change will still have the bads be bads and they will still get destroyed.

The bads will get destroyed, alot of the carried here with undue confidence will get destroyed too, but many will able to compete without worrying about whether the next guy is actually better. There's lots of games that have even playing fields where skill and comp are all that matter, and they aren't dying. So maybe just maybe, it wont be as you say.

Edit:typo

[Sialina]

The bads will get destroyed, alot of the carried here with undue confidence will get destroyed too, but many will able to compete without worrying about whether the next guy is actually better. There's lots of games that have even playing fields where skill and comp are all that matter, and they aren't dying. So maybe just maybe, it wont be as you say.

Edit:typo

It's been tried, it was called legion, it didn't go well. Noone will get "destroyed" because they don't have a gear advantage anymore, you get the gear because you can reach that rating, not the other way around. Not sure how that is hard to figure out.

And yes, plenty of games are skill based, MMOs however are progression based at their core. An MMO that doesn't allow you to progress your character won't do well, because why not just play a standalone pvp game instead if that is what you are interested in? get rid of the whole leveling and class and character thing, just pick a template and go. Way better when you only want to play something skillbased, no?

[Noctiphobia]

because why not just play a standalone pvp game instead if that is what you are interested in? get rid of the whole leveling and class and character thing, just pick a template and go. Way better when you only want to play something skillbased, no?

Have you considered that a lot of people specifically enjoy WoW's PvP? There are very few standalone PvP games that are in any way similar to that. Every game wants to be "fast-paced" with people dying in less than a second, and I don't want that. I like slow paced PvP like it usually is in WoW (as you can guess, I liked PvP in WoW more before Shadowlands burst), I like PvP where the main goal is just killing the enemies, and I like games where I control my character with the keyboard (as opposed to MOBA style controls). The only other PvP game I've been playing (relatively) recently that satisfied all of those was Battlerite (easily my favorite online video game), but sadly, it was killed 3 years ago.
If you have any recommendations, I'd really love them, but so far I've been going back to WoW PvP despite the MMO aspects, not because of them.

[Bats]

People supporting this current gearing system don't understand that a PvP environment should have a level playing field. Denying the gear advantage is as delusional as it gets. Also if you believe that gear doesn't matter, then why are you upset about it being normalised? A paradox.

Current PvP participation is also 3 dudes and a dog. PvP was dull in Legion because you could only kill someone with ridiculous dampening, not because PvP was "fair".

Getting rid of PvP rating requirements doesn't completely remove progressions, please stop exaggerating. They even left the upgrades so you still get to upgrade it exactly the same way, just now you will have to outplay someone rather than outgear them when it comes to PvP.

There is no downside to this change, any self respecting PvPer supports it.

[ArenaDk]

If you get stuck at 1950 and "struggle" then it's not about gear... The ilvl difference between rival II and duelist gear is what, 3 ilvl? Hardstuck players get this weird tendency to put more weight on gear than its rational.

The main difference will be felt in random BGs, it won't affect rated games much if at all. If you are a hardstuck 1950 player now, you won't get much higher in DF. If anything it will make getting rating harder because less players participating mean less rating inflation. And there will be less players pushing rating because rewards are being stripped so less reason to push. Not to mention people like you who will face the harsh truth that it wasn't the gear that was holding them back and in result will give up on PvP altogether.

- - - Updated - - -



Neither I probably won't bother past getting my transmogs because there is no reason to get rating anymore.

And crying about "boosted players with gear" is just a scapegoat for bad players who have to blame their failures on something because admitting 'i have to get better" requires some character.

Imagine people are talking about Rival 2 lol. that was the fixed version where they added bridges. Before you had challenger/combatent gear vs duellist and not even Rival gear got close to duellist. It was just no fun to play rated if you are at a big disadventage. Every game you win takes longer then it needs / should be and you lose every game vs people on the same skill level. How does any of that motivates someone to play activly arena or even with multiple characters?

Then look at legion etc where you could que with anyone at any time and have fair matches

[melzas]

Imagine people are talking about Rival 2 lol. that was the fixed version where they added bridges. Before you had challenger/combatent gear vs duellist and not even Rival gear got close to duellist. It was just no fun to play rated if you are at a big disadventage. Every game you win takes longer then it needs / should be and you lose every game vs people on the same skill level. How does any of that motivates someone to play activly arena or even with multiple characters?

Then look at legion etc where you could que with anyone at any time and have fair matches

They are not on the same skill level if they can get higher rating than you. They got the gear because they played good and got the rating, not the other way around.

The problem is if you are bad at PvP, chances are you don't even see when someone outplays you.

[Tentim]

They are not on the same skill level if they can get higher rating than you. They got the gear because they played good and got the rating, not the other way around.

The problem is if you are bad at PvP, chances are you don't even see when someone outplays you.

Little of A little of B. WoW pvp is painfully formulaic at higher ratings. It's always clear when what will be popped where and why. I would argue most raids have a greater level of unpredictability.

There really shouldn't be gear in pvp but then you run into the issue of an extremely predictable pvp environment becoming even more predictable. WoWs engine moves far to slow for skill based pvp like a shooter.

WoW honestly needs to play like dota if they ever wants to fix pvp till then it's always gonna be this weird minigame that has a weird amount of rewards tied to it.

[Biglog]

The dual-stat thing has felt a bit clunky, and Blizzard is doubling down on it for DF. But even though it's clunky it's probably the best alternative to having distinct only-pve and only-pvp gear. And it does seem like they are fixing the situation where some pve>pvp gear in pvp.

Back 5-10 years ago Blizzard was thinking pvp would take off in esports more than it has. It's still alive today but hasn't grown like they expected, and it's seemed like pvp has mostly been a back-burner afterthought for them since. At least a couple of the bgs are getting some minor refreshes though.

[Tyris Flare]

Have you considered that a lot of people specifically enjoy WoW's PvP? .

What is a lot? I don't know if we have any actual info on this, but it often feels like almost nobody in this game actually does organized PvP, probably even less than mythic raiding. That's pure speculation on my part though.


I do think that people like to pretend they like gear fairness, though, when in reality most people would be happy to be able to stomp scrubs all day because that's what is actually fun.

[ArenaDk]

They are not on the same skill level if they can get higher rating than you. They got the gear because they played good and got the rating, not the other way around.

The problem is if you are bad at PvP, chances are you don't even see when someone outplays you.

Buddy, abusing Rbg by spamming it for 10h to get your rating up vs low groups and then having a adventage in arena is not skill lmao.
You are not even bad it seems , you dont even know what happend in pvp. But no worry blazzing , melk trupp or whatever is the flavor will keep getting you your stuff

[phattsao]

PvP gear is not the problem. Class tuning is.

They are clearly mainly worried about Mythic +, and maybe raids. PvP is barely considered, which is how you end up with stuff like hunter double tap making the game incredibly frustrating for PvPers.

Granted, giving the best players better gear than everyone else probably wasn't the smartest move, but the real issue is simply a lack of attention to PvP.

Wouldn't take much. "Double tap damage reduced by 30% in PvP combat". Bam, at least the healer might have a chance to respond now, and it wouldn't affect their precious Mythic + performance at all. But it seems like they simply cannot be bothered.

[Omniclass]

PvP gear is not the problem. Class tuning is.

They are clearly mainly worried about Mythic +, and maybe raids. PvP is barely considered, which is how you end up with stuff like hunter double tap making the game incredibly frustrating for PvPers.

Granted, giving the best players better gear than everyone else probably wasn't the smartest move, but the real issue is simply a lack of attention to PvP.

Wouldn't take much. "Double tap damage reduced by 30% in PvP combat". Bam, at least the healer might have a chance to respond now, and it wouldn't affect their precious Mythic + performance at all. But it seems like they simply cannot be bothered.

I'd imagine taking gear out of the equation will make class tuning in pvp easier, not harder.

[fear]

Wouldn't take much. "Double tap damage reduced by 30% in PvP combat". Bam, at least the healer might have a chance to respond now, and it wouldn't affect their precious Mythic + performance at all. But it seems like they simply cannot be bothered.

The crazier thing on this not only was mm not nerfed it was buffed in pvp only lol.

PvP gear is not the problem. Class tuning is.

They are clearly mainly worried about Mythic +, and maybe raids. PvP is barely considered, which is how you end up with stuff like hunter double tap making the game incredibly frustrating for PvPers.

Granted, giving the best players better gear than everyone else probably wasn't the smartest move, but the real issue is simply a lack of attention to PvP.

They both go hand in hand for the same reason. Overtuned specs do too much dmg/healing, players with more gear than others do too much dmg/healing. If specs were all magically doing the same dmg someone having more gear would make them do more dmg causing the same problem as a overtuened spec. The issue on live is when you combine both it just gets really stupid. Df fixes gear but made a lot more broken specs so it won't really matter in the end lol.

And broken specs will be a even bigger issue with things like rated shuffle since you just have to kill one person overtuned specs can just tunnel the weaker specs.

[Cynical Asshole]

At least the gearing system is on the right track.

People enjoy PVP but not all people enjoy arena. People want to PVP in warmode and random bgs and not get rekt and smeared on the ground by people who happen to be good at the fucking arena or are sleeping with some raid leader who carries them them through rated bgs and so they have gear that is galaxies better for PVP than whatever non regular PVP-ers can obtain without delving into arena which they hate or whoring themselves out to an rbg group leader.

Let PVP gear be obtainable from general PVP, not just from leet skeeeelz zomg arena high ratingz. And if Blizzard actually wants the latter, at the very least implement solo-queue, because having to work in a group and have coms and have to talk to people and then be exposed to blaming and toxicity if the match is lost, is one huge deterrent.

[melzas]

Buddy, abusing Rbg by spamming it for 10h to get your rating up vs low groups and then having a adventage in arena is not skill lmao.
You are not even bad it seems , you dont even know what happend in pvp. But no worry blazzing , melk trupp or whatever is the flavor will keep getting you your stuff

So you think people only get gear upgrades in rated bgs?

... wait, you seriously think it's hard to get arena rating without rated pvp gear from rated bgs?

LOL

[Omniclass]

At least the gearing system is on the right track.

People enjoy PVP but not all people enjoy arena. People want to PVP in warmode and random bgs and not get rekt and smeared on the ground by people who happen to be good at the fucking arena or are sleeping with some raid leader who carries them them through rated bgs and so they have gear that is galaxies better for PVP than whatever non regular PVP-ers can obtain without delving into arena which they hate or whoring themselves out to an rbg group leader.

Let PVP gear be obtainable from general PVP, not just from leet skeeeelz zomg arena high ratingz. And if Blizzard actually wants the latter, at the very least implement solo-queue, because having to work in a group and have coms and have to talk to people and then be exposed to blaming and toxicity if the match is lost, is one huge deterrent.

To your last point, solo queue rated is coming next expact, i found it fun on the beta. The people who get to massively high ratings in rated solo shuffle are likely the best pvpers out there.

[Noctiphobia]

What is a lot? I don't know if we have any actual info on this, but it often feels like almost nobody in this game actually does organized PvP, probably even less than mythic raiding. That's pure speculation on my part though.

I don't know, when I'm randomly inspecting people in (insert current expansion major city), a lot of people have a considerable number of arena games. Participation is of course tied to the rewards, so Legion PvP participation is probably around the number of people who actually play only because they enjoy it, but how many people would raid if there were no rewards? Either way, supposedly only like 10% of players raid, so pretty much everything has low participation and most people just do some questing and maybe dungeons.