[TV] House of the Dragon

[Kumorii]

Where did i mention his death bed scene?

You didn't but the throne scene is part of his death.
And it's that depiction. Maybe I shouldn't have used "last days on his death bed" and instead just "last days". Feels like nitpicking though. You knew I was talking about his acting ability of a man that's dying.

If you didn't, just reread my post and apply it to the throne scene.

[RH92]

Where did i mention his death bed scene?

I personally found it really powerful when Viserys entered the throne room to defend his daughter despite being hours away from his death. He might have been delirious when Rhaenyra was begging him and doubting herself but he made his intention clear to everybody standing in the room when the doors opened. However I lost it when Daemon came to support him up the stairs. Despite all the questionable shit he ever did, he loved his brother.

I don't know, it kind of reminded me of myself and my brother who I haven't seen in 12 years (He left and cut all contact, living in a different country). Even despite all the bad blood between us and years of complete silence, I still love him and would find it incredibly hard to hold the grudge if he came back.

[Koriani]

Well, that and for calling the kids bastards… that’s why he said "say it". It is treason and punishable by death, and Daemon was hoping he’d say it so he could kill him.

And if you watch closely, when Vaemond is discussing blood vs names, Daemon looks at Rhae and she sees it and nods, which I assume is her giving him permission to strike him down.

Yup! This.

Because yeah - that's why Daemon tells him "just say it." Because publically calling into question the line of succession is TREASON! Been waiting several episodes for someone to actually act on that fact - despite throwing it around in conversation every episode.

And Vaemond was there to make a stand for his family, or die trying. Instead of correcting his trajectory once he realized The Hightower "Queen who Never Was" was no longer in his corner and had, instead, realized the King's appearance in the room 'changed everything' and Rhae's marital offer for all the children really had become the 'best deal' she could make - he doubled down in the vein hope that others would 'stand up for what was right and true' (ha!).

In normal circumstances Viserys might have let him go, but Daemon baited him to blurting that shit out, offending his wife and Viserys daughter and then lost his head.

This is actually one of the bigger issues I have with the show (and maybe book, don't know) up to this point - is the 'lack of real logic for the sake of plot' that we're (the viewer) expected to buy into that has existed in this realm for the last decade+ years. That yeah, Viserys would AT ALL "under normal circumstances" allow spoken treason to just...walk. That we've been watching example after example of outright treason and shit-treatment of the supposed "ACTUAL HEIRS" to the throne for, in storyline time, 'YEARS' - with no one, including the KING himself, doing jack shit about the behavior or call outs. Except exiling his hand.

I don't blame the show as far as being 'bad writing.' Not at all. This is tv - this is how all tv plots work to some extent or the other. Lost logic or 'realistic reaction' to stated rules of the reality for the sake of plot. Just this part of HoD's plotting seems a bit more of a 'stretch' to buy into than normal for me. I accept this is how its playing out, and if Martin wrote it this way then alright - it just seems a step down in the level of overall writing - from GoT's logic/reactions in these same situations - to 'handwave' all this really bad treatment of "The Names Heirs" to the Iron Throne when their Grandfather, Mother, and actual 'supporters' should be doing the exact opposite and would be fully justified in being way more 'punitive'. Which would actually help to accomplish what it is they keep STATING they are doing - but then doing nothing of the sort. (I.e. "This talk is treason. This is your future King!" And doing zippo about everyone talking smack right in front of them.)

All I could think of Daemon was - "About damn time. Someone actually grew balls and did something about the disrespect." Course, that only was dropped again by the dinner scene, when everyone is again able to treat the heirs however they want with little consequence until they're about to actually kill each other.

Just feels more "Out of character" for a world that, in GoT, certainly handled even small 'insults' to the Heirs of Kingdoms, with more realistic, responsive, force that at least matched what the characters were claiming they would do if challenged in such a way.

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Honestly, if Vaemond had stopped at the bastards I don't think Daemon would have stepped in to that level. He might have done the tongue cutting himself, but the line was crossed when Vaemond got too far ahead and called out Rhaenyra.

I don't think Daemon cares as much for the Strong boys as it appears on the surface level. Just enough to keep their mother happy.

Actually I think Daemon cares more about the THRONE and his family's POWER than his wife, also. Even if its not Daemon's throne but his brother's, he does believe in the line of his FAMILY NAME staying in power (even if not full biological heirs). What Vaemond said was high treason and to NOT answer that challenge with anything but his death would absolutely weaken the entire family's position on the throne.

But I definitely agree it wasn't due to his fondness for his step-children. And only a 'bonus' for him that it gives him wife points =D.

[PACOX]

The throne room scene made me sob. There was just so much unsaid, but I've believed from the beginning of the show that Daemon loved Viserys, even though he raged at him. Even though he resented him. Even though, at times, he hated him, I never once believed that Daemon didn't love his brother.

There was just so much unsaid between them. You could just feel it in the air around them.

I don't think Daemon resented Viserys at all. Daemon is just bad at expressing himself on top of wanting to appear as an independent self made man.

Daemon thought he wanted the throne until he realized how much he hated the politics. He never abandoned Viserys but wanted none of the politics. He found some happiness with Laena because he no longer had to deal with the dredge of living in Kings Landing. He could just hang out and ride dragons while still 'playing his part'. At least that's how I rationalize his personality and some of decisions he made.

Daemon is loyal to his brother and family, he just hated the politics.

[Tojara]

Also shows that both brothers sort of needed each other. Viserys does have empty threats, but Daemon will and did carry them out.

Daemon shows signs of being power hungry early but I think that's sort of a ruse. Both of the brothers love each other and in very sibling fashion (especially brothers) don't really know how to show it. Even from my own personal examples, my siblings and I were lukewarm to each other at best, but when it really counted and you needed someone in your corner you or they would be there for one another.

Both Daemon and Viserys really didn't want the throne. Viserys was a bad king mostly because he avoided conflict, but also because he never truly wanted it. It was just a sense of duty for him. Viserys never even took to another dragon because he was loyal to the then short lived Balerion, and didn't really want to take a second wife but did it out of duty alone. The same loyalty he provides to his daughter when he announced her as heir, never wavering until he died.

I don't think it's super complicated but considering the circumstances Viserys calling for Vaemonds tongue, regardless of Daemon being there would likely have happened in this circumstance. Viserys was both at his weakest and strongest, which is the whole point of the Throne room scene IMO. He wanted to make everything right because he knew his last days (or literal day) was coming. Also most of the times people spoke plainly about the legitimacy of his grandsons, have been his own family (at least in the shows anyway). It's quite possible that somebody like Vaemond wouldn't be afforded that luxury.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Honestly, if Vaemond had stopped at the bastards I don't think Daemon would have stepped in to that level. He might have done the tongue cutting himself, but the line was crossed when Vaemond got too far ahead and called out Rhaenyra.

I don't think Daemon cares as much for the Strong boys as it appears on the surface level. Just enough to keep their mother happy.

No, Daemon was egging him on to call them bastards just to give him an excuse...up until that point Vaemond had been keeping just a hair shy of stepping over the line with his insinuations. Calling the kids Bastards and Rhaenyra a whore just gave Daemon all the justification he needed to permanently end the threat right then and there. It also served as a lesson to the rest of the realm what happens to those that publicly accuse the Princess' children of being Bastards.

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Also shows that both brothers sort of needed each other. Viserys does have empty threats, but Daemon will and did carry them out.

Daemon shows signs of being power hungry early but I think that's sort of a ruse. Both of the brothers love each other and in very sibling fashion (especially brothers) don't really know how to show it. Even from my own personal examples, my siblings and I were lukewarm to each other at best, but when it really counted and you needed someone in your corner you or they would be there for one another.

Both Daemon and Viserys really didn't want the throne. Viserys was a bad king mostly because he avoided conflict, but also because he never truly wanted it. It was just a sense of duty for him. Viserys never even took to another dragon because he was loyal to the then short lived Balerion, and didn't really want to take a second wife but did it out of duty alone. The same loyalty he provides to his daughter when he announced her as heir, never wavering until he died.

What Daemon really wanted was recognition. He was salty that his brother never chose him to be his Hand. He was annoyed that he was forced to marry for political convenience.

I don't think it's super complicated but considering the circumstances Viserys calling for Vaemonds tongue, regardless of Daemon being there would likely have happened in this circumstance. Viserys was both at his weakest and strongest, which is the whole point of the Throne room scene IMO. He wanted to make everything right because he knew his last days (or literal day) was coming. Also most of the times people spoke plainly about the legitimacy of his grandsons, have been his own family (at least in the shows anyway). It's quite possible that somebody like Vaemond wouldn't be afforded that luxury.

It's also important that other people spoke to Viserys about his grandsons probability of being bastards in private. Vaemond stood in front of the court and publicly accused the Princess' sons of being bastards and the princess herself to be a whore. That's way over what Viserys could be shown to tolerate.

Vaemond fucked around and found out.

[Celista]

The throne room scene made me sob. There was just so much unsaid, but I've believed from the beginning of the show that Daemon loved Viserys, even though he raged at him. Even though he resented him. Even though, at times, he hated him, I never once believed that Daemon didn't love his brother.

There was just so much unsaid between them. You could just feel it in the air around them.

I agree that scene was quite moving. But I still think Daemon mostly looks out for himself, as Rhaenyra stated. I do think this scene humanizes his character somewhat.

Viserys was a bad king mostly because he avoided conflict, but also because he never truly wanted it. It was just a sense of duty for him.

I don't think Viserys was a bad king at all, at least not in comparison to Aerys II and other kings who have ruled throughout GoT history. He was mostly able to maintain peace. He was both kind and just. His major mistake was being too trusting off his hand, who chose to manipulate him for his own gain, and choosing to marry for love (or lust) instead of for political stability.

[Tommi]

Also shows that both brothers sort of needed each other. Viserys does have empty threats, but Daemon will and did carry them out.

Daemon shows signs of being power hungry early but I think that's sort of a ruse. Both of the brothers love each other and in very sibling fashion (especially brothers) don't really know how to show it. Even from my own personal examples, my siblings and I were lukewarm to each other at best, but when it really counted and you needed someone in your corner you or they would be there for one another.

This. I could push my siblings around as much as I wanted to, but if someone else touched them, it was war. Only I was allowed to do that.

[Jinnobi]

Can someone do me a quick favor and let me know if this forum is heavily "Team Black," or are the people around here intelligent enough to realize that both sides have legitimate complaints - and legitimate failings.

In either case, I'd appreciate it.

[Tojara]

I don't think anybody is claiming otherwise. A lot of the show is viewed by a modern viewpoint, applied to the past, and obviously breaking traditions let alone rules during those times would be frowned upon. It's touching on the point that women can't sleep around, shouldn't be rulers and are mostly used to produce heirs or allegiances. People might not like that, but those things alone give the "greens' ammunition.

Viserys broke the wheel so to speak by doubling down on his daughter being the first ruling queen, and Rhaenrya certainly broke a lot of rules/customs along the way.

[ringpriest]

Can someone do me a quick favor and let me know if this forum is heavily "Team Black," or are the people around here intelligent enough to realize that both sides have legitimate complaints - and legitimate failings.

In either case, I'd appreciate it.

I can only speak for myself, but I think that a good part of what HotD is aiming for is to make both sides both flawed and sympathetic. (And now both sides have a dangerous blonde-haired bad-boy, altough we'll need a bit more screen time before we know for sure if Ewan Mitchell can pull as much charisma as Matt Smith, but I suspect the answer is yes.)

Personally, I'm Team Black, though not because I think they're somehow "better" on some objective scale - they aren't. Among many other things, Rhaenyra bailed on her duty to produce legitimate heirs, and, worse, fled her responsibilities as heir apparent to Dragonstone, leaving the Greens in de facto control of the kingdom. If she had remained in King's Landing, the impending coup would never have been able to get off the ground. (Though obviously that's one of many points of failure on both Team Green and Team Black.) And while I like the character of Daemon, he is absolutely a murderous (if magnificent) bastard.

I'm Team Black because, objectivity aside, I like them more than Team Green. (Ultimately, to put on my fictional tinfoil (Valyrian steel?) hat, I'm Team Dragon, not Team Maester, but I don't think the show is going to be touching on that already-obscure bit of Westeros at all.)

[Syegfryed]

I think the show is making the greens look a little worse, from i what heard from the books Aegon did not rape that girl But in contrast, Alicent didn't hear that bi of prophecy, she just wanted her son i the throne anyway, the first i think was unnecessary, but the later was better to make more sense in the character;

[PACOX]

Can someone do me a quick favor and let me know if this forum is heavily "Team Black," or are the people around here intelligent enough to realize that both sides have legitimate complaints - and legitimate failings.

In either case, I'd appreciate it.

I don't think being Team Black (or Green) and seeing both sides are rotten is mutually exclusive.

Team Black is looking better at this point because I feel like they've done the least shady stuff. Rhaenyra lied about her sons, but it's not really hurting anyone but the Hightowers. And it only hurts the Hightowers because they want in on the throne. It's not Rhaenyra didn't try to have a kid with Laenor, she didn't treat Strong poorly, she even accepted Laenor's partner. She tried to give the Hightowers a piece of the throne by uniting the houses.

Daemon has done nothing shady as far as Greens vs Blacks go.

Meanwhile, Rhaenyra lied because the world won't accept her or her cousins partner preference but Alicent goes out of her way to be nasty. Alicent bad-mouthed Rhaenyra's kids in front of hers, planting seeds of rivalry. Alicent knows how the Strongs died. She doesn't recognize Rhaenyras position, calling Aegon the heir from the jump. The Vaemond ploy was even against what the Velaryons had already planned - that seat wasn't supposed to be contested at all. And I'm just talking about Alicent.

Right now, the Greens are a lot more sinister than the Blacks.

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I can only speak for myself, but I think that a good part of what HotD is aiming for is to make both sides both flawed and sympathetic. (And now both sides have a dangerous blonde-haired bad-boy, although we'll need a bit more screen time before we know for sure if Ewan Mitchell can pull as much charisma as Matt Smith, but I suspect the answer is yes.)

Personally, I'm Team Black, though not because I think they're somehow "better" on some objective scale - they aren't. Among many other things, Rhaenyra bailed on her duty to produce legitimate heirs, and, worse, fled her responsibilities as heir apparent to Dragonstone, leaving the Greens in de facto control of the kingdom. If she had remained in King's Landing, the impending coup would never have been able to get off the ground. (Though obviously that's one of many points of failure on both Team Green and Team Black.) And while I like the character of Daemon, he is absolutely a murderous (if magnificent) bastard.

I'm Team Black because, objectivity aside, I like them more than Team Green. (Ultimately, to put on my fictional tinfoil (Valyrian steel?) hat, I'm Team Dragon, not Team Maester, but I don't think the show is going to be touching on that already-obscure bit of Westeros at all.)

One reason why Viserys never got on Rhaenyras case about her sons because he knows that the system is kind of messed, leading to the death of wife as he was pressured to produce a male. Rhaenyra hasn't been honest but her faults like in dealing with a flawed system. In a better world her and Laenor would have been close cousins and Strong her husband. But in Westeros she has to try to protect the honor of all 3 of them, her family, and her sons because people are more obsessed with names than blood. Viserys, a man of family, couldn't fault her for playing along as much as she did and being free of the nonsense as much as she was able to.


Ok I have 2 bad things she did. She could have handled the Criston situation better before he went bad. It's not her fault because he is still his own man. So that like 0.5 a fault really. She let Laenor's family think he is dead. 1.5 things. And she didn't just abandon Kings Landing, she left for the safety of her family and to take pressure off her father.

[Tojara]

Considering Laenor's 'persuasions' and being forced to marry due to alliances, she really didn't have any options to have a 'legit' heir anyway. They tried, he couldn't produce, but as the story is portrayed she still would've slept with who she wanted anyways (which is pretty frowned upon in Westeros). Laenor was allowed to do the same, and while being gay is pretty frowned upon as well, that part of his life style was pretty plain sight to at least the family.

I think it was brought up in an earlier episode where Rhaenyra felt it was unfair that women can't essentially sleep around or pick who they typically marry, at least at the upper class. They pretty much are used for duties, where it's pretty open that males can sort of sleep around without any of the scrutiny. How many Baratheon bastards were there in King's Landing lol. Viserys pretty much agreed, gave her ample opportunity to pick anybody (which nobody in her position was ever allowed to do) and he eventually had to force the marriage.

Alicent just plays by the rules, hated that Rhaenrya lied to her and she did her thing with Criston. Technically how the handled Laenor (even though it's good for him) causes a lot of negative things, because regardless of what 'really' happened, Laenor is technically dead. So a lot of ire is directed towards her and Daemon, and Rhaenys still believes she has something to do with it, despite her pleas.

Also aren't the heirs to the Iron Throne suppose to live in Dragonstone anyway?

Both are flawed, but it certainly skews towards being more sympathetic towards the Blacks, especially if you go into the series with modern lenses on. None of these events would've came close to happening if the first borne child regardless of either male/female were just automatically heir or they just accepted that women can are capable of leading. That's part of what makes the show good to me anyway, because even though though there is strong bias against women leading anything in Westeros it shows that they are just as manipulative, awful and backstabbing like all the males of the realm (just in their own way).

[Northern Goblin]

Eyeball Paul being the shifty manipulative bastard pretty much stops me ever being Team Greens. It's Black by default for me.

[Twdft]

I am "team show me a good story".

House of the dragon is like a giant train wreck, season one is the build up and shows us the beginnings. It'll escalate into a full blown civil war with thousands of dead and war crimes committed by pretty much everyone. A lesson since Game of Thrones: don't name your kids after anyone before the show is over.

The allure of Martins universe was always that he can write characters who can rightfully think they're the good guy if viewed in context of that made up world. Even people like Otto just want what they think is best for the realm, too shortsighted to see their actions inevitably lead to civil war. Of course some people are evil like Larys, and some are good like Harwin. But most of them are simply people.

[Tojara]

It's kind of like a bell curve. The amount of truly evil or truly good characters in the show are at the end of each curve. Most of them are somewhere in the middle.

[Khaza-R]

I'll be interested to see how the show portrays the Greens vs Blacks. I would prefer a more morally ambiguous depiction myself.

I could be misremembering but I don't recall the books ever really giving the reader a reason to like Alicent or Aemond. Its written from an entirely different perspective though so they could flesh out their personalities much differently in the show.

[RH92]

I'll be interested to see how the show portrays the Greens vs Blacks. I would prefer a more morally ambiguous depiction myself.

I could be misremembering but I don't recall the books ever really giving the reader a reason to like Alicent or Aemond. Its written from an entirely different perspective though so they could flesh out their personalities much differently in the show.

I think they already did pretty good job with Alicent. They portrayed her as a vicitim of this rigid system, being manipulated into the corner by her own father and people around her. Once the children are introduced, it's hard to see things clearly.

Even though Aemond will most likely be a villainous character, there is a clear motivation behind his actions. He was bullied by the other children his entire childhood and even got maimed by them. It's not hard to understand why he is so withdrawn. Much like Daemon, he is mostly there to protect his immediate family. It's just their personalities are vastly different.

[Jinnobi]

I can only speak for myself, but I think that a good part of what HotD is aiming for is to make both sides both flawed and sympathetic. (And now both sides have a dangerous blonde-haired bad-boy, altough we'll need a bit more screen time before we know for sure if Ewan Mitchell can pull as much charisma as Matt Smith, but I suspect the answer is yes.)

Personally, I'm Team Black, though not because I think they're somehow "better" on some objective scale - they aren't. Among many other things, Rhaenyra bailed on her duty to produce legitimate heirs, and, worse, fled her responsibilities as heir apparent to Dragonstone, leaving the Greens in de facto control of the kingdom. If she had remained in King's Landing, the impending coup would never have been able to get off the ground. (Though obviously that's one of many points of failure on both Team Green and Team Black.) And while I like the character of Daemon, he is absolutely a murderous (if magnificent) bastard.

I'm Team Black because, objectivity aside, I like them more than Team Green. (Ultimately, to put on my fictional tinfoil (Valyrian steel?) hat, I'm Team Dragon, not Team Maester, but I don't think the show is going to be touching on that already-obscure bit of Westeros at all.)

Thank you for the intelligent reply. I don't mind people preferring one "team" over another, so long as they have legitimate reasons (or at least what I would consider legitimate).

Most people who are "Team Black" -- in my experience -- simply find the characters of Rhaenyra, Daemon, etc. more compelling and charismatic, and use that to justify objectively terrible actions instead of simply admitting that they like them more for their personality.

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Eyeball Paul being the shifty manipulative bastard pretty much stops me ever being Team Greens. It's Black by default for me.

See, this is, in my opinion, an example of a poor reason to be "Team Black."

Aemon was a child who was bullied for not having a dragon, and instead was given a dressed-up pig. His brother was in on it, as was both his cousins.

When he finally manages to mount and fly the most powerful dragon in Westeros, he's greeted with a four-way beatdown; in which is nephew brought a dagger to a fistfight. He not only managed to win 1v4 (until cheapshotted with a real weapon), he also had completely legitimate reason to be angry; after all, he was bullied and made fun of for presumably years (I presume it wasn't months) for not having a dragon.

Then he gets his eyeball slashed out, and his father cares more about who called his nephews bastards rather than the fact that he just permanently lost an eye. If one of your relatives cut out your own eye in a childhood brawl, I am 100% certain you would be angry and bitter - especially if your dad cared more about reputation and parentage of your nephews than your physical well-being. (Which shows a degree of hypocrisy, as they do not care about reputation, law, precedent, or tradition when it comes to naming your stepsister Queen, but suddenly care deeply when it calls the legitimacy of your nephews into question.)

Next time the same person who maimed you comes to visit six years later, he doesn't apologize -- rather, he puts on a shit-eating grin when the roasted pig is placed in front of you (an obvious callback to the childhood bullying). It's an unapologetic, brazen, and incredibly rude attitude to have.

And finally, calling "Eyeball Paul" a shifty, manipulative bastard when he is the spitting image of Daemon in both form and function is exactly the kind of hypocrisy I was referring to seeing on the internet. It's shockingly one-sided, especially when he hasn't even done anything on Daemon's level of evil yet. Daemon can cave his first wife's head in with a stone, bring his 16-year-old niece to a brothel, tell her that since they're Targaryens they "can fuck who they want" and proceed to have physical relations with/statutory rape her, intentionally trip horses in tourneys, turn the City Watch / Goldcloaks into a brutal police regime, make fun of his dead nephew (which Rhaenyra knows about and apparently doesn't care about), murder a random guard so that Laenor can "escape" (i.e. run away or I'll kill you because Rhaenyra wants to marry me, sorry not sorry about your parents thinking you're dead the rest of their lives), and in general doing more shifty, manipulative things in this series thus far of any character - including Clubfoot - and you still put the focus on Aemon being the shifty and manipulative one. Unreal.