Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Triceron]

Yet he still sold the rights for it to be adapted. That is all we need to know. He specifically authorized that others could adapt that part of his story as it is included in the rights he gave away. It isn't bad faith to say that George Lucas authorized others to have creative control of his work. Opinion of an adaptation isn't part of the discussion. It existing in the first place is.

But the conversation isn't about authorization others to have creative control over his work. It is about intent on how others would adapt his works.

No one is arguing whether Tolkien authorized film companies to adapt the second age - we know that this is the case because the 2nd Age is covered in the appendices and that is part of the rights. Whether or not he INTENDED the second age to be adapted is completely different from this, because intent is not authorization.


Just like if I hand over the keys to a friend to watch over my apartment for the weekend while I'm out on vacation, it does not mean I intended him to throw parties and trash the place and leave it in a state of disrepair by the time I get back. Authorization is not Intent. You could argue that I'm taking the risk, you could argue that I'm responsible for the decision to give authorization, but you can't draw a conclusion that I would be okay with the fact that the apartment got trashed just because I took the risk that it could potentially happen. You can't argue that 'because you authorized it, that means you're fine with the result'. That's not what IC was talking about.

And again, for that matter, IC is also applying the same fallacies of implying that Tolkien would have openly opposed the 2nd Age being adapted, because no one actually knows how this theoretical situation actually plays out. No film company ever expressed wanting to do such a thing while Tolkien was alive.

[rhorle]

"One will corrupt, two will divide but three will be balanced".

I'm pretty sure it is referencing a triumvirate. One person holding power will corrupt. Two people will cause a division. Three offers a "tie breaker" or balance to the other two.

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No one is arguing whether Tolkien authorized film companies to adapt the second age - we know that this is the case because the 2nd Age is covered in the appendices and that is part of the rights. Whether or not he INTENDED the second age to be adapted is completely different from this, because intent is not authorization.

And yet you and IC have been arguing just that. His intent to have the second age be adapted is clear because he authorized to adapt the second age. Intent is authorization. Are you going to claim he mistakenly authorized the appendices to be included? Of course not because his intent was to authorize what was included in his books.

We can't infer if he was happy about it. Or what he thought about it. Or if he would be for or against any adaptation of his work. The facts are simple. He authorized it to happy so at some level he was fine with it happening. Your friend/key example misses the mark. Tolkien told his "friend" they could do anything with his apartment. This includes parties (Adaptations). It can even include no adaptations. If the rights included Tolkien, or his estate, having full creative control then your example would fit because parties couldn't be held because rules were made to forbid them. You can be mad at your friend, just as tolkien could be mad at the video games, toys, films, shows, etc about his work. But he still authorized it to happen.

[Syegfryed]

This episode was so bad in many ways that is prob the worst of the show, so man non sequiturs in the dialogue, so many stolen line s from the movies, you have Kelebrimbor being a dumbass who doesn't know about 'combining ores", greatest blacksmith over there

And when they can't push hard enough, they had to push softly, the line was so bad i don't even remember fully, but damn, of course it was Galadriel who gave them the way to make the rings, everything needs to be about here.

And Arondil didn't say how elves didn't have medics? since their bodies heal themselves? how the hell they would get elven medicine?????

Hallbland had a hole in his stomach, dying, but he rode 6 days without resting to the elven lands, and that was not suspicious????? ok he is sauron he can endure, but the horses would be DEaD

Plus, they took 2 days from numenor to southlands, now its more than 6 to go back???

I really wanna know the thought behind the quote
"One will corrupt, two will divide but three will be balanced".

I can't make heads or tails of that quote... what does it mean in this context? Where did it come from? Why does everyone act like it make perfect sense.

Sauron helped us to create 2 rings which he said will grant power over flesh, which is what he wanted? Fuck yeah, lets keep making them. Add another one. Buy 2 get 1 for free...

It came from their asses, like anything in the show.

Once again, this to me feels like a plot from another story that they pathetically tried to implante in Tolkien work, maybe in their first draft of a movie that got rejected make sense, but if you put here, it doesn't.

[Triceron]

And yet you and IC have been arguing just that. His intent to have the second age be adapted is clear because he authorized to adapt the second age. Intent is authorization. Are you going to claim he mistakenly authorized the appendices to be included? Of course not because his intent was to authorize what was included in his books.

No, I am pointing out that no one knows his intent because we don't know the details of the deal.

It would not be a mistaken decision, but it could be a reluctant one. He sold the rights to pay off tax debts, the context matters in discussing whether he was actually okay with it or not. The ends doesn't justify the means, because the means was primarily financially motivated while you're ignoring this context entirely. You're only focused on the fact the deal was made, and not considering the context of why it was made. That's bad fucking faith because you're intentionally ignoring all factors of the discussion just to make your petty argument.

Again, Sophie's Choice parallel. Can you say that Sophie was okay with the decision to let any of her children die? Would you argue that because she allowed one to die, that she must be intent on giving authorization for either of them to die in any other context? You'd say she would be fine and okay with it because it happened?

[rhorle]

No, I am pointing out that no one knows his intent because we don't know the details of the deal.

It doesn't matter if it is reluctant or not. He still authorized adaptations of his work. That is the simple facts. The rest is trying to assign his feelings to the situation which was something you said that can't be done yet are now trying to do. The context does matter and the context of the discussion is that he was fine with adaptations because he authorized them to happen.

He could have later regretted that. He could have been fine with it. It doesn't matter because the only thing that matters is he authorized it and he gave away creative control. The act of doing that shows he was fine with it because he didn't cancel the deal.

[Triceron]

It doesn't matter if it is reluctant or not. He still authorized adaptations of his work. That is the simple facts.

It does matter because you claimed he would be okay with something he may not have intended.

You can't claim that when authorization has nothing to do with intent. It does matter, because that is the entire context of the conversation. No one is arguing whether the 2nd Age was authorized to be used or not, that is already known. The topic is whether he intended it to be or not, and that's something that can't be answered by merely pointing at him having authorized it.

Just like you can't imply that I intended my apartment to be trashed because I authorized handing over the keys.

It doesn't matter because the only thing that matters is he authorized it and he gave away creative control. The act of doing that shows he was fine with it because he didn't cancel the deal.

Yet you aren't considering that if he cancelled the deal, he may have lost the entire estate because of tax debts? You understand the context here, right?

You're literally telling me that the one thing that matters most about intent doesn't matter to you at all, because it happened anyways. You understand how absolutely bad faith this is right?

[Orby]

Rings of Power - Overall Review

I really feel like when I started watching this show I really got into it, maybe its the fact of seeing a Tolkien made property again that got me really excited, and for the most part this show does look beautiful, some great locations and sweeping shots and good cinematography, locations like Khazad-dûm looked amazing, the atheistic was great. Some great set design and a soundtrack I love. You can tell for sure where the large budget went because you can see it.

First off I am not huge into Tolkien, I have read the Lord of the Rings Trilogy, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion and Beren and Lúthien. So I wouldn't consider myself an expert or really up to date on the lore, so I am coming at this show from a casual fan of Tolkiens work so I am not going to pretend that I know every detail.

My biggest problem with the show overall is the dialogue, the story and the lack of development on world and character building. There are moments where the show shines. The Elrond, Durin and Disa scenes were a treat whenever they were all on screen, so much so the show suffered when they were not on screen, there were also arcs that felt pointlessly added, like the Harfoots, by the time the season was over I thought to myself that if you take out the Harfoot arc nothing would have been lost. The scenes with them were not bad at first, in fact when I started watching I thought they were charming, seeing Lenny Henry as a Hobbit as someone who is a fan of his stand up comedy, brought a huge smile on my face. Unfortunately the Harfoots wore out their welcome the more the show went on, they became a crutch that seemed to slow the plot of the main story down.

Unfortunately I felt many of the characters didn't feel explored enough, once again outside of the Elrond (Robert Aramayo), Durin (Owain Arthur) and Disa (Sophia Nomvete) characters, everyone else either felt too flat or undeveloped. And they were the bets part of the show, the drama between Durin and his father the connection with his wife Disa and his long time friend, Elrond really got the most out of me.

The Galadriel character (played by Morfydd Clark) who was the main protagonist of our story, came across really unlikable and felt very different to the book interpretations of her that I know. A headstrong, bitter, cynical and selfish character that I found very tiresome to watch. She had moments towards the end where I felt her character was starting to warm with me and she showed signs of her character I knew, but overall, I just didn't feel the writing and directing did her justice. I do not feel its the fault of the actress, I think she did well with what she was given but I am not sure what direction she was given during her scenes, because most of the time he expression ranged from 'I want to cry' to 'I want to yell at you'. Juist this constant scowl.

The Arondir (Ismael Cruz Cordova) and Bronwyn (Nazanin Boniadi) was a welcome break while also providing some set up the main plot towards the end. Unfortunately the romance between the two didn't feel genuine to me like a lot of the characters in this show I felt no real connection to them I was rooting to know more about Arondir becuase he seemed one of the more interesting characters, but so little was given about him, he felt a bit empty to me. The story Southlanders even felt convoluted by the end.

Speaking of connections most of the time side characters were killed off and treated very haphazardly and thrown aside and forgotten about very quickly, even after the village battle scene (which I will get to), the death of so many of the villagers resulted in no mourning at all, all these people died and funnily enough like the audience who never felt a connection to them when they died, it seemed even the characters didn't either because there was no mourning, they just move don as if no one died. Womens, men, and children had died and there was no recognising, it, this happens at least three times in the show, death just doesn't matter here if you are an extra or a side character. There was a time in the show earlier on when two people die and the person they are connected with reacts to their deaths but because we do not know them that well it was hard for me at least to care about them. Its hard to feel for anyone when there is a lack of emotion or feeling given.

This brings me onto pacing, with every episode I felt the show moved too fast and too slow at the same time, characters needed more time to develop and developed very slowly that made any connection feel lacking, meanwhile the story moved way too quickly and felt rushed to a point scenes came and went in a blink and you miss it moment. I barely had any time to connect with anyone, any thing or any place they visited, time and space was completely thrown out of the window.

Every episode was very uneventful out of six episodes in where there was one battle scene, all of the other episodes were just set ups, if you like your shows to be heavy exposition through explaining, on top of more explaining, then you are in for a treat.

With that said the battle scene itself in the sixth episode I enjoyed, it got pretty gory in parts too which I think is a welcome addition to Tolkien adaptations. I didn't mind that too much, there was certainly tension around that episode and felt like the only episode with actual stakes, and seeing the horse charge to save the day felt the closest I have seen to feel compared Peter Jackson movies.

As mentioned before the dialogue was very odd, the writers tried their best to make the show sound very poetic in a way most Tolkien works are, you saw it written well in the Peter Jackson movies when they were not adding their own modern inserts into the movies. But here in Rings of Power it happens a lot, the writing would switch to this poetic Tolkien written acting to very modern lines, and would often lead to it feeling very disjoined. I am not sure what was going on in the writing process and I will not pretend to know, but it would have helped if they had someone there to help their with the dialect of Middle-Earth. The writers did rely a lot of nostalgia or familiarity of the books and movies by adding in quotes into this show from the books/movies and felt very forced in a way to make you remember that this is a Tolkien story you are watching.

I found the main story arc to be one of the weaker stories of the show (barring the Harfoots which was the weakest), which shouldn't be the case for the leading story and hero of your show, this should be the arc you want to see again and again and want them to come back to, instead it just took the wind out of me, there was also a lot of weird real world inserts, that felt very out of place in Tolkiens world, the 'Elfs took our jobs' speech got a laugh out of me for sure. There were several moments like this that felt out of place and really pulled you out of the show.

Minor gripes were some of the design choices, like the short haired elves, which I had a hard time at seeing first, but as the show went on I didn't pay too much mind to it, the elves all looked like wrinkly British politicians over the eternal youthful elves that Tolkien described them as, but it was a minor nit pic. another minor gripe was the use of a map in the earlier episodes to track travel which was strangely abandoned half way through, as well as the appearance of text on screen title of a place reveal that only appeared once, it felt very inconstant.

Overall the show does feel clumsy in places, it tried to be Tolkien but falls very short, there is effort, but ultimately that effort is bogged down by some awful decisions in the story and character departments that really take me out of really appreciating this show for what it could have been, I feel all the actors did the best with what they are given but the story just didn't hold up for me, and it dragged a lot until the sixth episode, only to then fall again after it.

My only hope is that they can learn from this in season two (if there will be a season two) and try and fix the issues they had and make an even better show. And a show that maybe I can really get into and not one where I feel underwhelmed and uninterested for 80% of it.

Overall Rating: 4/10

[Triceron]

So thinking back on the show and trying to make sense of things knowing what we do now, is there any tangible, sensible reason Halbrand saved Galadriel from drowning? I mean, I can't imagine she is his only 'in' to gaining favour with the Elves. There's like a million other ways to get into their good graces, and even in the official canon he does so through playing Celebrimbor's ambitions, which seem quite in tact in this adaptation.

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

[Syegfryed]

So thinking back on the show and trying to make sense of things knowing what we do now, is there any tangible, sensible reason Halbrand saved Galadriel from drowning? I mean, I can't imagine she is his only 'in' to gaining favour with the Elves. There's like a million other ways to get into their good graces, and even in the official canon he does so through playing Celebrimbor's ambitions, which seem quite in tact in this adaptation.

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

He has the hots for her, clearly

[rhorle]

It does matter because you claimed he would be okay with something he may not have intended.

So is it your opinion he was forced into signing away creative control? It was done against his will? Authorization has everything to do with intent. IC actually did argue that the 2nd age wasn't authorized to be used. So it is clear that you don't understand the context or past discussions. If he signed the deal because of tax debts then that is showing intent to give creative control away, right? Lmao.

[Adamas102]

you have Kelebrimbor being a dumbass who doesn't know about 'combining ores", greatest blacksmith over there.

Yeah and according to Tolkien the elves were so fucking bad at crafting that it took them 300 years to learn how to make rings and then 10 more years to actually make 3 of them.

But according to all the crybabies, long time spans are just epic regardless of how silly it makes the narrative. As soon as I see someone complain about the condensed timeline I know right away that they’re a fucking idiot and don’t know the first thing about adapting a story to a dramatic medium.

The show’s only real weakness was pacing the multiple storylines. The Harfoot/Stranger one could have been saved to another season to make more room for the others, but I see why they did it if the goal was to shift focus away from the Halbrand reveal (and while everyone wants to claim they knew from the start, there was plenty of discussion early on as to which character would end up being Sauron, so they succeeded at that goal).

[Triceron]

So is it your opinion he was forced into signing away creative control? It was done against his will? Authorization has everything to do with intent. IC actually did argue that the 2nd age wasn't authorized to be used. So it is clear that you don't understand the context or past discussions.

You realize what a tax debt could do, right? And no, I'm not providing any opinion. I'm providing room to argue your conclusion is not the only outcome that implies intent. In a situation where one is forced to make a hard decision, one can go through with the decision without being okay with the outcome, for the sake of the greater good. This is the whole reason I'm drawing comparisons to Sophie's Choice, which you haven't commented on whatsoever on. Not even taking time to include in quotes. Do you even acknowledge what I'm saying, or are you intentionally ignoring it?

If he signed the deal because of tax debts then that is showing intent to give creative control away, right? Lmao.

Yes, and in this context, intent of giving away creative control to pay off debts wouldn't mean he was fine or okay with it . It would be that he wasn't okay with it, wasn't fine with it, but had to do it anyways in order to save the estate and keep his family and business afloat.

[ringpriest]

My biggest problem with the show overall is the dialogue, the story and the lack of development on world and character building. There are moments where the show shines. The Elrond, Durin and Disa scenes were a treat whenever they were all on screen, so much so the show suffered when they were not on screen, there were also arcs that felt pointlessly added, like the Harfoots, by the time the season was over I thought to myself that if you take out the Harfoot arc nothing would have been lost. The scenes with them were not bad at first, in fact when I started watching I thought they were charming, seeing Lenny Henry as a Hobbit as someone who is a fan of his stand up comedy, brought a huge smile on my face. Unfortunately the Harfoots wore out their welcome the more the show went on, they became a crutch that seemed to slow the plot of the main story down.

Thank you for sharing your review of the show. (I trimmed it down to the part I'm replying to.)

Ursula K. Le Guin has an essay (my copy of which is misplaced) where she talks about the Language of Elfland, and how there's a certain cadence to the speech of high fantasy. And it's not that everyone in a book has to speak like an elf-lord for it to be high-fantasy - in LotR, Samwise does not (and that's rather the point), while Aragorn and Elrond and Gandalf (except when he chooses otherwise) do.

When you mentioned dialogue, that's the thought that came to my mind. It's like the show is sometimes trying for that language of Elfland, but not reliably hitting the mark, and sometimes not trying when it should be. (House of the Dragon, by contrast, doesn't lean heavily into high nor low fantasy, and it has its own style of dialog that it consistently seems to it. I.e. House of the Dragon has a bit lower target that RoP, and is hitting that target much more accurately and consistently.)

[Xath]

It is a bad faith argument to say that Tolkien was fine with adaptations being made because he himself signed rights away? Nothing I am saying is about the ends justifying the means. Or a theoretical situation. Tolkien signing the rights himself is a very real thing that happened. He made an agreement to give X rights to Y things to Z company. That includes making adaptations.

I'm not wrong about what this conversation is about. It is about adaptations being made whether from a whole story or parts of a story. Limiting it to 2nd age is just bogging it down into assumptions that we can't talk about as you yourself even said. The appendices however were part of the rights he signed away and thus were something he was fine with being adapted.

I'm not drawing a blanket conclusion because a certain decision was made. I'm drawing a conclusion from what he sold. He sold the right for others to make adaptations. Therefore he was okay with others making adaptations. Even IC agrees with this point, or at least they did, because they argued that his published work is the only thing he intended to have adapted. Yet now they shift from that not being the cause because their argument of the moment can't support that.

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Right. Hence why your example works better when you require a baseball fan to see every single baseball game. If a person only watches the games of their favorite team they can not be a fan according to your logic.

No I said primary work that's 4 books total not talking about the notes or appendices or anything that was after death turned into a new book. Talking about 4 books very much equivalent to just watching a single team if not even less time consuming.

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So being a fan and an authority of something is the same thing now? One can’t be one without being another?

Good lord stop playing word games you are bad at them. If I claimed to be either while not actually watching games I would be correctly dismissed.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah and according to Tolkien the elves were so fucking bad at crafting that it took them 300 years to learn how to make rings and then 10 more years to actually make 3 of them.

To make rings or to make the rings of power? you can't be a blacksmith and not know about allowys.

The show’s only real weakness was pacing the multiple storylines

And the story
and the writing
and the directing
and the acting
and the actors
and the editing

The Harfoot/Stranger one could have been saved to another season to make more room for the others, but I see why they did it if the goal was to shift focus away from the Halbrand reveal (and while everyone wants to claim they knew from the start, there was plenty of discussion early on as to which character would end up being Sauron, so they succeeded at that goal).

No, everyone with half a brain knew he was Sauron from the get to go, people don't get to claim this was something shady or mysterious just because the show force the hints on the stranger, who we also knew, was Gandalf all along. maybe we hoped it was another wizard, but since that would be a clever thing, obviously they would not do that

[Adamas102]

If anything, the most sensible thing to do would have been to allow Galadriel to drown. He would have been fine in Numenor without her, no?

Pretty much any narrative can be written a hundred different ways to get from point A to point B. In the end, the way they did it here worked to tie in the Numenorean storyline, the Mordor storyline, and the Elven rings storyline together with a touchstone character at the center. Despite all the bitching, it works.

[rhorle]

You realize what a tax debt could do, right?

So you understand why he intend to give away creative control of his stories. Are you saying he didn't intend to trade the rights for money? Are you saying he tried to scam buyers by not intending to give the rights away even though that is what he was selling? If one is forced to make a hard decision than the one they picked is their intent. Yes that doesn't mean a person was okay with it but it still means it was what they intended to do.

Again this isn't about his feelings on the choice. Just the intent of selling and authorizing adaptations of his work. He no longer would have creative control because someone else would be setting the terms. How can I intentionally be ignoring something you've stated when we can't infer intent from actions? The act of signing the contract indicates he was fine with the terms of the deal. He was fine trading some control of his work to save his estate, business, and family. Otherwise he wouldn't have signed.

[Triceron]

Pretty much any narrative can be written a hundred different ways to get from point A to point B. In the end, the way they did it here worked to tie in the Numenorean storyline, the Mordor storyline, and the Elven rings storyline together with a touchstone character at the center. Despite all the bitching, it works.

It works because it's contrived. That's the point of the 'bitching'. It's making sense of motivations, and questioning the verisimilitude. We're not talking about whether the writers were able to make it work or not. They could literally insert a Robot character from the future who tells them all to meet in the Southlands, and that would be considered a plot that works.

Did Sauron know Galadriel was going to not go to Valinor? Did he know she would still be in the Elve's good graces after she returned to Middle Earth? Did he know she would travel back to Middle Earth alone, and would be willing to go to Numenor? Did he know he was going to be saved by Numenoreans?

How much influence did he really have over all these events that happened. Because if it was all so convenient to his plan that everything happened in this way, fuck, he didn't even need the One Ring to rule them all. All he needed was the Rings of Power's writers.

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So you understand why he intend to give away creative control of his stories. Are you saying he didn't intend to trade the rights for money?

Intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending on the Second Age to be adapted as its own series.

Just like George Lucas intending to give away rights for money does not equate to intending the sequel trilogy to utterly bastardize his legacy, which he fully regrets having happened in retrospect.

Would you say George Lucas was okay with the Sequel Trilogy happening, and argue that he sold the rights therefore he was completely okay with the sequel trilogy being made as it was? That he was fine with it? Because I can tell you, he was not fine with it, he was not okay with it, and he fully regretted the decision.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Good lord stop playing word games you are bad at them. If I claimed to be either while not actually watching games I would be correctly dismissed.

word games? your the one trying to gate keep being a fan and then injected being an authority on a topic when pushed on it as if you have to be one to be the other.

[Adamas102]

To make rings or to make the rings of power? you can't be a blacksmith and not know about allowys.

It took 7,500 years for real world smiths to go from smelting metals to creating alloys. The idea that a blacksmith should automatically know about alloys when the setting isn’t placed in a real historical time period is just your own headcanon. The show made a point of establishing that creating alloys is simply not a widely known practice in Middle Earth at this time. I’m perfectly fine with an elven smith whose craft might have revolved more around making amazing things with the pure or pre-mixed elements that were available to him only just now learning about alloys.

And the story
and the writing
and the directing
and the acting
and the actors
and the editing

I’ve yet to see any legitimate complaints about any of those other than “I don’t like it”. There has been absolutely nothing wrong with the acting or actors (if you want to bitch about not liking them then so be it but there’s nothing technically wrong). The pacing is part of the writing and I already touched on that but the dialogue is just the usual fantasy schlock and isn’t any worse than Tolkien’s (he was never great with dialogue to begin with). Editing wasn’t perfect at times, but overall it was fine.

No, everyone with half a brain knew he was Sauron from the get to go, people don't get to claim this was something shady or mysterious just because the show force the hints on the stranger, who we also knew, was Gandalf all along. maybe we hoped it was another wizard, but since that would be a clever thing, obviously they would not do that

Lie if you want but it’s 100% unequivocally true that Sauron’s/Annatar’s identity was something that people discussed. Hell, if you google Annatar the pic of that Eminem looking lady still comes up.