"The future will unfold as it was meant to"

[Aucald]

But quite a few people are aware of it, at least pretty much anyone, who has interacted with the bronze Dragonflight.

The number of people who've interacted with the Bronze Dragonflight is relatively small, all in all - they keep themselves pretty isolated and their contingent of mortal supporters is also quite small, respectively. I also doubt even the Timewalkers are made aware of the full nature and scope of the timeline, down to its minutiae. Even Nozdormu himself seems unaware of that, given how often he's expressed surprise, confusion, or consternation at any number of occurrences. He knows a lot more than your regular Joe for certain, but not the entirety of it.

[Combatbutler]

The number of people who've interacted with the Bronze Dragonflight is relatively small, all in all - they keep themselves pretty isolated and their contingent of mortal supporters is also quite small, respectively. I also doubt even the Timewalkers are made aware of the full nature and scope of the timeline, down to its minutiae. Even Nozdormu himself seems unaware of that, given how often he's expressed surprise, confusion, or consternation at any number of occurrences. He knows a lot more than your regular Joe for certain, but not the entirety of it.

He knows how he is destined to die, no matter what. That alone is more than enough evidence. Anyone who knows destiny exists, is by default aware of a scripted universe. Which is the fundamental problem with any story involving fixed destiny.

[Aucald]

He knows how he is destined to die, no matter what. That alone is more than enough evidence. Anyone who knows destiny exists, is by default aware of a scripted universe. Which is the fundamental problem with any story involving fixed destiny.

Knowing that a scripted universe exists, and knowing the script itself, are two entirely separate things. Insofar as we know we could live entirely in a scripted universe ourselves, and our free will is only a delusion that we use to console ourselves with the notion that our decisions truly matter. Wouldn't be a very pleasant universe to inhabit, but who said it was or had to be?

[Bladesyphon]

He knows how he is destined to die, no matter what. That alone is more than enough evidence. Anyone who knows destiny exists, is by default aware of a scripted universe. Which is the fundamental problem with any story involving fixed destiny.

Which is why I'm banking that something happens in Dragonflight that completely shatters the concept of fixed destiny that the Bronze have, more so already than what Nozdormu did during the events of Cataclysm. It's important to note too that the events of the End Time can literally no longer happen, as we, the adventurers, have pretty much prevented all possibilities of that timeline from happening thanks to Nozdormu's intervention in Cataclysm, and our handling of N'zoth in Battle for Azeroth.

This is more or less why Murozond serving the role of the final boss and main overarcing antagonist of the expansion will work, regardless of what was seen during the End Time. We prevented that from happening, it is no longer possible for that future to come about, and in doing so, we've probably given the Infinite Dragonflight all the tools they need to basically rewrite destiny as they see fit for their leader, and lead us marching into a future unknown by the Bronze Dragonflight, the First Ones, and pretty much any other architects of Azeroth's fate.

All of that would kind of fall in line with the idea of Blizzard wanting to start a second story arc with Dragonflight, and what better way to do that then to take the pre-existing script that is destiny, and throw it into the fire.

[Combatbutler]

Knowing that a scripted universe exists, and knowing the script itself, are two entirely separate things. Insofar as we know we could live entirely in a scripted universe ourselves, and our free will is only a delusion that we use to console ourselves with the notion that our decisions truly matter.

If you know a scripted universe exist, you know you don't have free will, whether you know how the script will play out or not. If you were aware you live in a scripted universe, you would automatically be absolved of any kind of crime you ever committed for example, because you were destined to do them.

Wouldn't be a very pleasant universe to inhabit, but who said it was or had to be?

Depends entirely how you are scripted to feel about the script. Your thoughts on the matter wouldn't matter, since they wouldn't be yours to begin with.

[Aucald]

If you know a scripted universe exist, you know you don't have free will, whether you know how the script will play out or not. If you were aware you live in a scripted universe, you would automatically be absolved of any kind of crime you ever committed for example, because you were destined to do them.

It's a distinction without a difference from your perspective, though; since you don't know how the script dictates that you'll feel or think about any given outcome. You also wouldn't be absolved of any crime, most especially if the script dictated that you would be caught and punished by the authorities for what you were scripted to do. Absolution as a concept wouldn't really exist, either; since both your action and its outcome weren't really ever in your control, or anyone else's. There's nothing to absolve, and no one to absolve you.

Depends entirely how you are scripted to feel about the script. Your thoughts on the matter wouldn't matter, since they wouldn't be yours to begin with.

Well, we're talking about a scripted universe from the outside looking in, as it were. If it was *our* universe, then yes; although scripted or not, you'd still feel.

[Combatbutler]

It's a distinction without a difference from your perspective, though; since you don't know how the script dictates that you'll feel or think about any given outcome. You also wouldn't be absolved of any crime, most especially if the script dictated that you would be caught and punished by the authorities for what you were scripted to do. Absolution as a concept wouldn't really exist, either; since both your action and its outcome weren't really ever in your control, or anyone else's. There's nothing to absolve, and no one to absolve you.

From an outsiders perspective you would be absolved, what happens in universe would ultimately meaningless, since it is just a script and no choice matters.

Well, we're talking about a scripted universe from the outside looking in, as it were. If it was *our* universe, then yes; although scripted or not, you'd still feel.

Yes I would feel how the script would tell me to and reach a conclusion based on the script.

From an outsiders perspective a universe with a fixed destiny is rather pointless. Since you know none of the characters within have any agency whatsoever and any crime or moral conundrum is solved immediately.

[Aucald]

From an outsiders perspective you would be absolved, what happens in universe would ultimately meaningless, since it is just a script and no choice matters.

Yes I would feel how the script would tell me to and reach a conclusion based on the script.

From an outsiders perspective a universe with a fixed destiny is rather pointless. Since you know none of the characters within have no agency whatsoever and any crime or moral conundrum is solved immediately.

From an outsider's perspective, that's sort of what any fictional universe actually is, though - a predestined universe with a beginning, middle, and a definite end as defined by its author or authors. You can't control how someone else's written work of fiction will proceed, and the characters within it could easily be said to have no agency by dint of being fictional and compelled toward a preexisting conclusion.

Of course, if they do the whole "the First Ones are actually the developers writing the story" bit, I may actually lose my lunch. Not my favorite trope in fiction, by any means.

[Combatbutler]

Of course, from an outsider's perspective, that's sort of what any fictional universe actually is, though - a predestined universe with a beginning, middle, and a definite end as defined by its author or authors. You can't control how someone else's written work of fiction will proceed, and the characters within it could easily be said to have no agency by dint of being fictional and compelled toward a preexisting conclusion.

The setting is the point, if you want to have a any kind of morality in said setting, you shouldn't write with fixed destiny, because the one reading the story will come to the conclusion, the characters in the story had no choice, but to act in said manner. A future should never be set in stone, but always be in motion, for the sake of the reader.

The author always has the ultimate say, but they can always work with tools, which make their universe as believable and relatable as possible, going with a fixed destiny route throws it out of the window from the get go.

[SovietBabeyyy]

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he

Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

[Vakna]

Literally part of the gift that Aman'thul gave Nozdormu was knowledge of his death, a fixed point in history and why he makes the comments that he does during the Murozond fight in End Time.

That's why timey shit never, ever makes any sense. If Nozdormu was given the knowledge of when he will die and it's a fixed fate, then that means there is some invisible magical force that takes control of his body if he tries to kill himself before that time. Like what if he just decided to go 1v1 Deathwing during Cataclysm while he was flying around, or what if he just decided to go land inside N'zoth during BfA and take a nap. Some force would assume control of his body and prevent him doing it? And if that is not the case, what's stopping him from coming to the Shadowlands with us and just walking up to the Jailer and punching him to death, I mean, he can't die before his time, right?

[Mic_128]

"

Alternative timelines exist but only temporarily, winking in and out of existence as the true timeline goes on.

Unless you use the Timeless Isle's magic. The timelines accessible by those seem to exist perfectly fine. I'm expecting we'll probably have that island somehow atributed to The First Ones, because why not.

Which is why I'm banking that something happens in Dragonflight that completely shatters the concept of fixed destiny that the Bronze have, more so already than what Nozdormu did during the events of Cataclysm. It's important to note too that the events of the End Time can literally no longer happen, as we, the adventurers, have pretty much prevented all possibilities of that timeline from happening thanks to Nozdormu's intervention in Cataclysm, and our handling of N'zoth in Battle for Azeroth.

This is more or less why Murozond serving the role of the final boss and main overarcing antagonist of the expansion will work, regardless of what was seen during the End Time. We prevented that from happening, it is no longer possible for that future to come about, and in doing so, we've probably given the Infinite Dragonflight all the tools they need to basically rewrite destiny as they see fit for their leader, and lead us marching into a future unknown by the Bronze Dragonflight, the First Ones, and pretty much any other architects of Azeroth's fate.

While I do like that, I would rather instead of it being Nozdormu changing in the present, but Murazond again coming back from the future, doing one last attempt to change time before retreating to the 'End Time' that we finally kill him. Mainly because I really want to know what absolute nightmare future exists that a timeline with Azeroth completely lifeless and dead was preferable.

The "End Time," I once called this place. I had not seen, by then; I did not know. You hope to... what? Stop me, here? Change the fate I worked so tirelessly to weave?
You crawl unwitting, like a blind, writhing worm, towards endless madness and despair. I have witnessed the true End Time. This? This is a blessing you simply cannot comprehend.

[SovietBabeyyy]

That's why timey shit never, ever makes any sense. If Nozdormu was given the knowledge of when he will die and it's a fixed fate, then that means there is some invisible magical force that takes control of his body if he tries to kill himself before that time. Like what if he just decided to go 1v1 Deathwing during Cataclysm while he was flying around, or what if he just decided to go land inside N'zoth during BfA and take a nap. Some force would assume control of his body and prevent him doing it? And if that is not the case, what's stopping him from coming to the Shadowlands with us and just walking up to the Jailer and punching him to death, I mean, he can't die before his time, right?

Damn this Story is a fucking mess

[Aucald]

"Unless you use the Timeless Isle's magic. The timelines accessible by those seem to exist perfectly fine. I'm expecting we'll probably have that island somehow atributed to The First Ones, because why not.

Based on the Mag'har recruitment scenario, it seems that even AU Draenor, realized with the help of the Vision of Time, was itself only temporary - the Vision of Time appeared to harden the timeway, making it more durable than the norm for such unrealized realities, but eventually, it succumbed to the fate of all timeways that diverge from the true one. That is most likely the reason that the world was ending when we revisited it to rescue the Mag'har, and why the Lightbound and the Mag'har were fighting over an undefined cataclysm both blamed one another for. In reality, it was just the timeway naturally collapsing in on itself.

[Aresk]

A truly fixed timeline was always a problem, since it takes away any kind of choice that any character makes, because everything has been pre determined. No one has agency, they simply exist and play a role according to a script.

But do we know that the timeline is truly fixed? If so, the infinite dragonflight wouldn't be an issue, because they couldn't change things. Yet, they have knowledge of all of this and they do attempt to nullify people's choices, either by killing Arthas or Medivh or Thrall or the like. The idea that everything is decided in advance also is undermined by the fact that there is player choice in the game; there's not a lot of such instances, but they do exist. Kayn vs Altruis. Sylvanas vs Saurfang. While Nozdormu has a fixed destiny, Nozdormu also has been described as existing across the timeline, so he is constantly in that moment as much as he is in every other, and his "current" choices are all choices he's ever made. One could argue he has as much free will as destiny, just he's already made all those future choices just as he's already made all his past choices.

That's why timey shit never, ever makes any sense. If Nozdormu was given the knowledge of when he will die and it's a fixed fate, then that means there is some invisible magical force that takes control of his body if he tries to kill himself before that time. Like what if he just decided to go 1v1 Deathwing during Cataclysm while he was flying around, or what if he just decided to go land inside N'zoth during BfA and take a nap. Some force would assume control of his body and prevent him doing it? And if that is not the case, what's stopping him from coming to the Shadowlands with us and just walking up to the Jailer and punching him to death, I mean, he can't die before his time, right?

These specific examples aren't hard to explain at all:

• He goes to fight Deathwing: Deathwing handily beats Nozdormu, wounds him to the point Nozdormu can't keep fighting, and then leaves his brother's battered form behind to continue his plans while Nozdormu recovers from his injuries.
• He naps in N'zoth: N'zoth corrupts Nozdormu and created Murozond.
• He goes to punch the Jailer: The Jailer dominates Nozdormu. Nozdormu now serves the Jailer up until we defeat the Jailer, at which point Nozdormu is himself again.

Just because he can't be killed doesn't mean he automatically succeeds at anything he attempts. Death isn't the only consequence of failure.

[Mic_128]

Based on the Mag'har recruitment scenario, it seems that even AU Draenor, realized with the help of the Vision of Time, was itself only temporary - the Vision of Time appeared to harden the timeway, making it more durable than the norm for such unrealized realities, but eventually, it succumbed to the fate of all timeways that diverge from the true one. That is most likely the reason that the world was ending when we revisited it to rescue the Mag'har, and why the Lightbound and the Mag'har were fighting over an undefined cataclysm both blamed one another for. In reality, it was just the timeway naturally collapsing in on itself.

It's a theory, but its's not anything that's got any evidence to back it up. It could be a case of the Light having too strong a grip on the planet, corrupting it the same way that Fel did. That plus there's the fact that the Light's Crusade is too good of a plothook to handwave away with as being eradicated off-screen.

[Aucald]

It's a theory, but its's not anything that's got any evidence to back it up. It could be a case of the Light having too strong a grip on the planet, corrupting it the same way that Fel did. That plus there's the fact that the Light's Crusade is too good of a plothook to handwave away with as being eradicated off-screen.

It's backed up by Chronicle Vol. 3, which reaffirms the eventual nature of alternative timeways like AU Draenor, and by the nature of AU Draenor's death, which doesn't really match what the Light would look like it corrupted the planet: massive deforestation, the die-off of flora and fauna, and a "sky clouded-over with a green tint to the atmosphere." Also noteworthy that the Lightbound on AU Draenor was made more zealous and militaristic by the influence of the Light Mother Xe'ra on an impressionable and desperate Yrel, but Xe'ra is dead in the prime timeline, so she's not going to be influencing any crusade of Light in the near future.

[Le Conceptuel]

"

Unless you use the Timeless Isle's magic. The timelines accessible by those seem to exist perfectly fine. I'm expecting we'll probably have that island somehow atributed to The First Ones, because why not.



While I do like that, I would rather instead of it being Nozdormu changing in the present, but Murazond again coming back from the future, doing one last attempt to change time before retreating to the 'End Time' that we finally kill him. Mainly because I really want to know what absolute nightmare future exists that a timeline with Azeroth completely lifeless and dead was preferable.

The "End Time," I once called this place. I had not seen, by then; I did not know. You hope to... what? Stop me, here? Change the fate I worked so tirelessly to weave?
You crawl unwitting, like a blind, writhing worm, towards endless madness and despair. I have witnessed the true End Time. This? This is a blessing you simply cannot comprehend.

I'd imagine it would be the Hour of Twilight witnessed by the Pale, no? The absolute universal dominance of the Void seems far worse than an Azeroth devoid of life.

- - - Updated - - -

Light's Crusade is too good of a plothook to handwave away with as being eradicated off-screen.

Perhaps Xe'ra would spill the beans about the situation, then usher Yrel and her Draenei out of the collapsing timeline to give them the option to rebuild and colonize Azeroth as a new home? Provided that Xe'ra isn't exactly the selfish nor stupid (albeit highly short-sighted) breed of villain, I could imagine her rescuing the Draenei race from Alt!Draenor with the perspective that it's sort of redeeming their perceived failure for being born into a timeline which does not follow the way things were supposed to be by having them correct another deviation in the main, stable timeline.

[Mic_128]

It's backed up by Chronicle Vol. 3

I don't have that one, so I'll have to take your word for it, but I still find it hard to take Chronicle books as a legit source after they've been constantly retconned after they've barely been released, with the "Unreliable Titan" narrator perspective of the writer.

the nature of AU Draenor's death, which doesn't really match what the Light would look like it corrupted the planet

If you're trying to convince your army that the Light is good and non-Light is bad, corrupting the planet with an alternate method would do the job better than turning crops into Light crystals or whatever.

I'd imagine it would be the Hour of Twilight witnessed by the Pale, no? The absolute universal dominance of the Void seems far worse than an Azeroth devoid of life.

It probably would, but it doesn't seem likely at this point, with the Old Gods effectively neutralised at this point in time.

[VinceVega]

Thought this was an interesting quote from the release trailer. I wonder if there will be restoring a timeline, or reverting world events to achieve what was "meant" to happen in Azeroth.

Lol yeah sure. No sane gamedev would completly role back past events. Even FF14 acknowledged their reset after the desaster that was the first release and did no just ignore it.

I REALLY REALLY hope the whole infinite dragonflight will only be a sidenote... it is timetravel AGAIN. This will fuck up so much and will never make sense. I cannot make sense by its very nature. Murozond should stay a footnote in wows history and never make an impact on wow again.

Also if they for whatever reason decide to retcon everything that happend in the last 20 years... do you really think anything they could not would be taken as anything as shit by the playerbase? Remaking content is NEVER a good idea. Live with it. Acknowledge it and try to do better in the future.

But reworking past events (again) or even giving it new context will be met with nothing but hatred from wow players.
So keep it as it was and make a new path forward. Which i think they are trying to do with DF.