Lord of the Rings TV Series Purchased by Amazon

[Majestic12]

And how do you explain Annatar appearing as a brief cameo in the movie trilogy (granted the scene in question was deleted, but it was also filmed in the first place)?

Having rights I believe only means that they can't name him by name. Sauron as a shapeshifter could in theory appear as basically anything (including Halbrand). Tolkien never explicitly says what race Annatar appears at.

I wish they had the rights of Annatar for RoP - and chose to have him as an elf. He was supposed to make 16 rings over a long period of time. RoP only made two and now he's exposed.

[Varodoc]

Oh I know that. But Elves are different. Mythical, perfect (in any source apart from this show), while Halbrand is just a normal and literally dirty human, it feels wrong for a Maiar, but I guess Gandalf also looked like a pretty dirty human, though he still had a much better aura about him (being played by one of the greatest actors of this planet did help too)

I completely agree. While it was obvious that Halbrand was Sauron, part of me wanted Sauron to be literally anyone else.

Sauron is a Maiar, he was an angelic and divine being, I would expect a mortal guise that befits that status. Halbrand is a literal hobo with filthy clothes.

It's like the dragons in WoW. Notice how the Aspects (Alexstrasza, Ysera, Nozdormu, Deathwing...) all took badass, iconic, and mighty humanoid forms. Now imagine Deathwing disguising himself as a hobo, that's Sauron as Halbrand. It doesn't really fit the character, who would be too proud and self-absorbed to take on such a filthy form.

[rhorle]

Not what the sources say, dude. Stop lying. Jackson tried for three movies

The Hobbit and two covering Lord of the Rings. Mirmax later cut The Hobbit out of the project. Jackson kept trying to adapt what Miramax was saying he could. They didn't try. He actually cut his adaptation down to two movies that could be made with a $75 million shared budget. Two $37.5 million movies would have been nothing like what we got out of NLC. If New Line instead proposed a triology, restoring cuts from the script, and making it bigger and better then they clearly enabled the films to be what they are today.

Again you indicate I am right but only when you state it. They were the entire reason why the movies got made as they did.

[Majestic12]

In reality, Sauron took on the guise of Annatar, an elf who was revered by the other elves as very fair and beautiful.

To be fair, this is the Shadow of Mordor adaptation I believe. Tolkien never explicitly says that Annatar was an elf.

But yes, I agree with you, I hope that he shows up portrayed like this. It's by far my favourite portrayal of Annatar(and the one that makes the most sense). I don't like Halbrand at all.

[Varodoc]

Having rights I believe only means that they can't name him by name. Sauron as a shapeshifter could in theory appear as basically anything (including Halbrand). Tolkien never explicitly says what race Annatar appears at.

I wish they had the rights of Annatar for RoP - and chose to have him as an elf. He was supposed to make 16 rings over a long period of time. RoP only made two and now he's exposed.

He said Sauron took on a form that would allure the elves, so a form that the elves would find fair and beautiful.

Now look at the elves and then at Halbrand the hobo in ragged clothes, I don't think they'd find him attractive. But I can believe that they would find Annatar (as depicted in the videogame) attractive.

There's a reason why the Lord of Gifts is always depicted as an elf. It just makes sense. Elves are the fairest and most angelic race and the only race allowed to live in Valinor. It just makes sense that the "fairest and most beautiful Lord of Gifts" would look like an elf.

[Triceron]

And how do you explain Annatar appearing as a brief cameo in the movie trilogy (granted the scene in question was deleted, but it was also filmed in the first place)?

Amazon didn't have the same rights as the PJ films. It's a clusterfuck of a mess of rights, really.

And that scene wasn't specifically mentioning 'Annatar' by name, merely portraying Sauron in a different form, which is one of those gray areas as far as rights are concerned.

[Varodoc]

Amazon didn't have the same rights as the PJ films. It's a clusterfuck of a mess of rights, really.

And that scene wasn't specifically mentioning 'Annatar' by name, merely portraying Sauron in a different form, which is one of those gray areas as far as rights are concerned.

Well, I have no problem if they decide to give him another name.

I just wish that Sauron took a more dignifying and badass disguise. Sadly, "hobo with ragged clothes in the middle fuck nowhere" doesn't cut it for me.

[Triceron]

Right. You accepting their motivation but not that of Arondir is the double standard in the context of the discussion. I'm not sure how you missed that.

I'd already explained it. The fresh start was immediately followed with the 'What of our King?' line, and the episode concluded with Halbrand being implied to be the leader of the group heading to Pelargir. Arondir's story is tied to that.

Now that we know Halbrand isn't a King and is Sauron, and shown headed to Mordor, it leaves the Southlander story wide open with no real connection to Season 2. Sure, they're headed to Pelargir, for a fresh start. Does that even mean they will be in Season 2?

[rhorle]

I'd already explained it. The fresh start was immediately followed with the 'What of our King?' line, and the episode concluded with Halbrand being implied to be the leader of the group heading to Pelargir. Arondir's story is tied to that.

So then what is the problem? Arondir is looking for a fresh start but will have to deal with the fallout of his girlfriends King being Sauron. Vague ideas are fine for other main characters but not for Arondir. This again shows your double standard because of the grudge you hold against Arondir. He is the only one that requires an in-depth resolution.

[Triceron]

So then what is the problem? Arondir is looking for a fresh start but will have to deal with the fallout of his girlfriends King being Sauron. Vague ideas are fine for other main characters but not for Arondir. This again shows your double standard because of the grudge you hold against Arondir. He is the only one that requires an in-depth resolution.

I can't even say for sure he will be in Season 2, that's how ambiguous it is compared to the other POV characters.

Right now the Southlander story is concluded with a fresh start in mind. The story is going the way of the Harfoots in that their story is resolved, with Nori and Galadriel carrying the arcs forward. We're literally left to guess Arondir's motivations here on out. As in, his connections to S2, if any. Which, I continue to point out, is odd because he was literally a POV character for the first season. Not a side or supporting character, a POV character.

[Kumorii]

• They should've let him be king for a while.
• Help Galadriel trying to find Sauron while managing his new kingdom.
• He can be the bringer of gifts to his new people, help them rebuild and gain a following
• Get some Mithril from the dwarves or elves.
• Forge the rings for his generals/lords (who later becomes ringwraiths) and have Celebrimbor help by having Celebrimbor believe it will help ward off Saurons evil some what.
• Celebrimbor goes back with the other rings to gift to the dwarves or Sauron himself gifts them without elves knowledge while traveling back with Celebrimbor.
• Celebrimbor later creates the three elven rings with the knowledge Sauron provided without his knowledge.
• Sauron forges his own ring when he's back in Mordor.
• Shits hit the fan.

Think the payoff of his reveal would be greater. Write it so multiple people can be accused of being Sauron. To have people invested in the relationships between the three races.

Cut out Harfoots.
This would of course be less bombastic and EPIC in the short term. But certainly more engaging and making more sense imo.

[Myradin]

He is the only one that requires an in-depth resolution.

Maybe because everyone else got an indepth resolution, and Arondir gets some off-hand comment said by other characters?

The dwarves might not appear in the final episode, but its pretty clear where they're going.

[rhorle]

Maybe because everyone else got an indepth resolution, and Arondir gets some off-hand comment said by other characters?

They didn't though. We also know clearly where Arondir is going. To Pelargir to be a family. A place that is an old Numenorian town with a people whose king was revealed to be Sauron. That is the same as the Stranger and Nori who are walking to Rhun to find some stars. No one got an in-depth resolution only general directions for what they will do in Season 2.

[Adamas102]

Eh, the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it with plot twist shenanigans. If LOTR followed RoP's plot, a lot of things wouldn't make sense any more, this merely being one case. As someone said earlier, if Mithril were merely the macguffin that allows Elves to stay in Middle Earth, they would have no real reason to leave by the end of the events of LOTR.

OR mithril's restorative powers in this respect are only a band-aid (Sauron's influence and corruption will continue to grow as this story progresses). Arondir's story isn't finished. Celeborn is alive. Gandalf will leave Middle-earth at some point in order to be sent back on his mission in the 3rd Age. The show has several more seasons to have these things catch up to the LotR continuity. Complaining that an unfinished story hasn't answered all your questions immediately seems a bit silly.

[Triceron]

OR mithril's restorative powers in this respect are only a band-aid (Sauron's influence and corruption will continue to grow as this story progresses). Arondir's story isn't finished. Celeborn is alive. Gandalf will leave Middle-earth at some point in order to be sent back on his mission in the 3rd Age. The show has several more seasons to have these things catch up to the LotR continuity. Complaining that an unfinished story hasn't answered all your questions immediately seems a bit silly.

To be honest, you don't actually know any of these conclusions since the show doesn't actually follow the book canon, so answering these questions immediately when the rest of the show isn't completely out yet is also a bit silly.

Can you say for sure that any of what you've said is confirmed? No? Then you're just disagreeing for the sake of your personal opinion and complaining about opinions that do not draw the same conclusions that you have.

The difference between your argument and mine is that I have not put forth any of my own opinions or explanations to cover for the show's lack of explanation. I'm literally talking about the show, while you're talking about alternative assumptions and headcanon explanations that are otherwise not actually indicated by the show itself.

[Adamas102]

To be honest, you don't actually know any of these conclusions since the show doesn't actually follow the book canon, so answering these questions immediately when the rest of the show isn't completely out yet is also a bit silly.

Can you say for sure that any of what you've said is confirmed? No? Then you're just disagreeing for the sake of your personal opinion and complaining about opinions that do not draw the same conclusions that you have.

This isn't a matter of my personal opinion or saying that these things WILL happen. I'm simply countering your assumed continuity errors with possibilities that it seems you've already dismissed. I'll wait to see how these things pan out before passing judgement.

No, I don't know for sure that the show will 100% connect to the later continuity, but they certainly have the time to do so. Despite changes, the show is very clearly drawing a lot from the book canon and also has made a point of connecting itself to the movie aesthetics, so it seems very likely that they will end with the expected conclusions to most, if not all, of these plot/character threads.

[Triceron]

This isn't a matter of my personal opinion or saying that these things WILL happen. I'm simply countering your assumed continuity errors with possibilities that it seems you've already dismissed. I'll wait to see how these things pan out before passing judgement.

No, I don't know for sure that the show will 100% connect to the later continuity, but they certainly have the time to do so. Despite changes, the show is very clearly drawing a lot from the book canon and also has made a point of connecting itself to the movie aesthetics, so it seems very likely that they will end with the expected conclusions to most, if not all, of these plot/character threads.

Then that doesn't actually address anything I've actually said, since you lumped in a bunch of random responses that don't touch on my argument about Arondir.

Mithril could be a band-aid - so what? I never said it was a surefire solution
Gandalf could return later in 3rd age. So what? I didn't say anything about Gandalf.
Celeborn is alive. So what? I didn't say he was dead.

You're just lumping all these explanations which have nothing to do with what I said, so not sure why you really bothered replying just to say these things that don't address anything I actually said. You're not countering anything since I never made any statements about these things you addressed. I didn't even say Arondir's story is finished.

[Myradin]

I still find it weird the Celeborn thing wasn't mentioned till episode 7. The show goes on about her trying to avenge her brother, but not her lover? Yes he is (extremely likely) just to be lost or captured somewhere, but you'd think the show would focus on this more since it would presumably have payoff eventually.

I'm curious if reshoots happened. Just like how Galadriel and Theo somehow get split up from the group when the town only has 5 buildings. Or the giant awesome super forge is built in a flash in one awkward scene with pointless dialogue from Calibrimbor, meanwhile the Dwarf king is still doubting if he can trust the elves later in the episode. Or episode 7 feeling like a perfectly fine season finale, followed by 8 rushing to get some rings made.

[Veggie50]

Sigh…

Bees do not waste their time convincing flies that honey is sweeter than shit…

Im out ^^

[Adamas102]

Then that doesn't actually address anything I've actually said, since you lumped in a bunch of random responses that don't touch on my argument about Arondir.

Mithril could be a band-aid - so what? I never said it was a surefire solution
Gandalf could return later in 3rd age. So what? I didn't say anything about Gandalf.
Celeborn is alive. So what? I didn't say he was dead.

You're just lumping all these explanations which have nothing to do with what I said, so not sure why you really bothered replying just to say these things that don't address anything I actually said. You're not countering anything since I never made any statements about these things you addressed. I didn't even say Arondir's story is finished.

You very clearly made a point of saying that the show's canon retcons LotR ("the show's canon clearly doesn't work with LOTR and effectively retcons it"), and that if LotR followed RoP's plot that a lot of things wouldn't make sense (specifically citing mithril and the elves leaving Middle Earth at the end of the 3rd Age). You're making an assumption that at least this one thing which is presented in the first season of the show is now set in stone and cannot evolve to line up with the later canon.

I brought up Arondir based on your other posts concerning his apparent pointlessness and/or lack of conclusion, again despite not knowing how the character will be handled in future seasons. The other two points were also ones that appear as contradictions to the later lore (even if you yourself didn't bring them up) yet still can be brought in line with later canon, which I mentioned to further highlight the point of how silly it is to draw conclusions at this time.