Loot Distribution Holy Wars, Wrath Edition

[God Save The King]

Well if you’re hit capped I wouldn’t say items with hit are useless, although the item might have to sit in the bank for a bit until a different +hit piece can be replaced.

Yeah not a great analogy. Hit is useful until you cap it (assuming you're not a dual-wield class).

A better analogy would be that healers have an 'hit cap' of 0. So hit is literally useless in this case. That's what mp5 is right now. There hasn't been a fight long enough that I could reasonably run out of mana. If you played a melee dps, using a 2h weapon, and had a talent that said 'Increases chance to hit by 9%', you would never keep a hit item in the bank. With my guild and killtimes, mp5 pieces give absolutely no value to me.

Full raid buffs I have 21,681 mana. I have 0 mp5 on my gear. I have water shield + blessing of wisdom giving me 210 mp5. Replenishment buff pushes that up to 427 mp5. With all raid buffs (outside heroism) I cast a chain heal every 1.98s. That means I get 2.52 casts per 5 seconds. Chain heal costs 793 mana. My chain heal hits 4 targets, and has a 36.2% crit chance in raid. Doing some quick math, based on my crit chance + mana return talent on crit, I generate 214 mana per chain heal cast on average. So it really costs 579 mana on average. Long way of staying that I burn about 1030 mana per 5 if I full throttle. This is actually lower in game as I would be weaving in Earth Shield, Riptide, and Lesser Healing Waves, but for the sake of argument let us say I am full pumping. Based on that quick math, including a mana potion and my own mana tide totem, I can spam, uninterrupted, for about 2.5 minutes. There is not a single kill on my 25m naxx clear that is longer than that. I have not been able to oom as a healer in Naxx25. The only exceptions are weird fights like Thaddius, Gothik, and Kel'Thuzad which have long preliminary phases, but the actual time to kill once fully engaged is sub 2 min. Longest fight is patchwerk at 2 min 18s, and that is a fight where I basically spam CH the whole time only weaving in riptides/earthshields.

I imagine if your dps is low and kill times approach the 4-6 minute mark, you will need more healers and more mp5 because fights are more about attrition there.

The odd thing about a lot of healers is that their regen in WotLK is built into spamming their abilties. I get a lot of 'free' mp5 just by critting a lot, which is why every piece I have is haste/crit.

[blastfromthepast]

It's been more than ten years but I remember that you were hitcapped with 4 or 5 ICC items, even with reforging. T10 had almost twice as much secondary stats as T7. I think it started in T9 when your main concern for reforging was to get down to all your caps.

OffTopic: There is no reforging in Wotlk that is a Cataclysm feature.

[hzjf]

the class has to be taken into consideration,

Mage:
Arcane Mage, they are using more mana than most classes a little MP5 goes a long way to the sustain in their burst window.

Warlock:
More mp5 means they life tap less, they need to life tap once every 30 seconds to get the buff, but Spirit is AMAZING for a warlock, as Spirit is passive mp5/hp5 and also equates to spellpower for warlocks.

Spriest:
The comparison between mp5 to crit/haste gear, if they are hit cap is very little, as they are generally there to buff bot at this stage.

the ring you linked is on NO ones BIS list as their number 1 anyway.

the way we do it:

MS BIS > MS Upgrade (dont care if its mp5 or not for caster healer or dps) > OS > PVP > Greed.

this way people can let you know if its BIS or not, if it isnt BIS for them and someone has marked it as BIS, GG it goes to the person who marked it as BIS.

if only MS Upgrades, everyone should be able to Roll.

only time you stop people rolling on just blind upgrades, is when it is actually BIS for someone in the group, id hate to lose Wraithstrike for instance on my Shaman when its P1 BIS to a balance druid when its not P1 BIS for them, the hammer from KT is.

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also the sword off KT, and mace isnt BIS for everyone.

Priest, Druid (balance/Resto), Shaman (ele/resto), for isntance use the mace for their DPS specs.
Mages/Warlocks use the Sword or the Staff from 10 Malygos

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Correct, and Spriest Moonkin, and Ele its BIS for their Resto/heal Counterparts as well

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226 caster does exist, but it aint BIS, just because it exists, doesnt mean people want it.

the staff from Malygos 10 is BIS for casters wanting a Staff, the Mace/Sword from KT is BIS for caster dps for 1H/OH

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this is wrong, some classes have BIS items, even with MP5, as its just the other stat makeups that come with the Mp5, that give people their thresholds, and break points.

Having MP5 on it and saying healer only is the same as saying "sorry your a ret paladin its agi crit/haste gloves no str not for you", even though they are a Rets BIS.

What ? Turning Tide is so far ahead its not even a discussion. Spellpower is KING

[loras]

Ah, caster jewelry, cloth as BiS for non-cloth wearers, and the infamous "gun as stat stick" debate, we meet again.

In your opinion should a MS/OS pug give priority on MP5 items to healers? For example Sarth 25 drops Wyrmrest Band https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=40433/wyrmrest-band

41 stam
40 int
32 haste
67 spellpower
20 MP5

Now this first few weeks that's probably a legit upgrade for most any caster. However, if I'm trying to pug in to a run and see that +hit items are going to DPS as a priority, and that spirit items aren't being prioritized to anyone, then if I also see MP5 items going to DPS...I'm joining a different run.

But I definitely see the DPS' point of view as that item has pretty good stats and not a lot of its allocation is spent on MP5. Nor is MP5 worthless to caster DPS.

It makes a difference what question we're asking. If the question is "Is this an upgrade" the answer would be to let everyone roll. But if the question is "Looking at the Tier 7 loot overall, is letting DPS go after +hit and +spirit and +MP5 the best way?" at this time I think the answer is no. As someone that pugs a lot the question I usually ask myself is "Are these loot rules going to make it tough to find good applicants of every role?" which in this case I feel means MP5 to healers.

But if for example there was a gap in itemization and the ring above was one of the only options to caster DPS, I'd feel differently about the situation. Maybe Trial and its 5 bosses has that issue, but the loot table for Naxx is enormous.

Also I'm not gonna sift through 30 specs worth of BiS lists, but if people want to summarize how good spirit is for the different casters I'm willing to listen.

Thing is that you presume a common interest here, namely "Item goes to the one who can use it best". That is not an overly relevant consideration in pugs, since their involvement with you and viceversa most likely ends after a run.

Ergo it goes to whoever wants it, can use, can show it to be an upgrade for them and either rolls the highest or sucks off the run leader best.
Not some theoretical "best for my role".

(Which coincidentally is part of why i consider personal loot a downright superior system to, say, master loot)

[Foolicious]

The odd thing about a lot of healers is that their regen in WotLK is built into spamming their abilties. I get a lot of 'free' mp5 just by critting a lot, which is why every piece I have is haste/crit.

Mp5 is mostly a dead stat in wrath. If an item like torch shows up in bis lists its usually because it has other things going for it like the most spellpower, a setpiece etc. You never want to have an item exclusively because theres mp5 on it.
The spirit healers just scale way better with spirit because they have talents that increases spellpower the more spirit they have or increase spirit in general.
And like you said Pala and shaman get a lot of mana by spamming heals. Then there is also replenishment that is basically mp5 that scales with your gear way better than mp5 would.

I would even argue that right now in p1 you safe more mana by giving mp5 items to a dps if its an damage increase.(The math probably proves me very wrong here) But there are no fights i have seen that require healers to have gear or a lot of mana regen. Just funnel your dps all the gear so the killtimes get even lower than they already are.

[SinR]

Can't wait for ICC and every Warrior to demand "THATS MY BIS" for a piece that has ArPen on it.

Deathbringer's Will... oh god I forgot about that trinket. Even for classes like Enh or Ret that put ArP on a lower priority, its STILL good cause of the procs.

[Tojara]

If there's no definitive better option we usually let people roll on things. There is no turning tide for elemental shaman, balance druids or shadow priests. Outside of that example we generally let spirit healers take the spirit gear, and the MP/5 healers take that gear. A lot of people do need to keep in mind that a few of the hybrid DPS classes do benefit from spirit, but some don't. Also spirit, at least how I remember it is one of the cheapest budgeted stats in the game, so while it might seem as 'wasted' it's probably not as bad as somebody ignorant of the class would think.

We don't let melee roll on hunter weapons, nor do we allow hunters to roll on stat sticks for melee. The caster trinket from Sartharion is reserved for caster DPS only.

People will literally go to WoWhead (and some of these guides are awful), look at their BiS lists and cite a range that's either BiS, all the way down to 4th BiS, without understanding the relative difference between them.

At the end of the day though you save yourself a lot of hassle when doing pugs if you're just consistent with the rules and are upfront with them. If you're doing a GDKP all of this gets thrown out the window, if you're doing a guild run with ML it gets thrown out the window as well. Pugs with MS > OS rules just need to tread lightly, and the best course of action is just cementing rules (even if they're dumb) and not deviating from them.

[StrawberryZebra]

People will literally go to WoWhead (and some of these guides are awful), look at their BiS lists and cite a range that's either BiS, all the way down to 4th BiS, without understanding the relative difference between them.

It's funny you should mention this. I pugged Naxx over the weekend and we invited a Shadow Priest who claimed to have "full raid Pre BiS". What he had was a lot of crafted and BoE epic gear, mixed in with some badge loot. Which, to be fair to him, were probably at or close to the top of every BiS list thats out there, and it was fully gemmed and enchanted properly.

What he did not have, however, was enough Hit. Not even close. So his DPS was attrocious and he rage quit not long after we killed Noth because he wasn't topping the meters. He was so focused on being top DPS that he didn't bother with what few mechanics actually matter.

People will follow these lists blindly without even considering their stats. Some of it is perhaps not understanding some of the game unexplained mechanics, like hit caps, and some is not understanding how those tier lists were created. In a pug, most likely the RL is going to check the same Moonkin guide, see the Torch as the BiS item and decide to give it to them even when a Resto Shaman or Holy Priest might have put it to better use.

It's at least true to the spirit of WotLK where everyone was a loot horny meter whore and pugs were misinformed and totally awful in evey respect. So there is that.

[Mhyroth]

Can't wait for ICC and every Warrior to demand "THATS MY BIS" for a piece that has ArPen on it.

Deathbringer's Will... oh god I forgot about that trinket. Even for classes like Enh or Ret that put ArP on a lower priority, its STILL good cause of the procs.

DBW will go for goldcap in week 1 GDKP's. Dragonspine Trophy or Nelt's Liar are nothing compared to the fiesta that the ICC Trinket will bring. It was bad in the original Wrath, Classic Wrath will be a whole other level.

[anon5123]

Having MP5 on it and saying healer only is the same as saying "sorry your a ret paladin its agi crit/haste gloves no str not for you", even though they are a Rets BIS.

agi still gives crit for ret paladins

mp5 gives nothing for mages/warlocks that effectively have infinite mana from their class abilities

shoo

[garicasha]

Actually I forgot the other holy war, guns with tank stats. Are there any in Naxx and are they actually good for hunters?

[SinR]

It's funny you should mention this. I pugged Naxx over the weekend and we invited a Shadow Priest who claimed to have "full raid Pre BiS". What he had was a lot of crafted and BoE epic gear, mixed in with some badge loot. Which, to be fair to him, were probably at or close to the top of every BiS list thats out there, and it was fully gemmed and enchanted properly.

What he did not have, however, was enough Hit. Not even close. So his DPS was attrocious and he rage quit not long after we killed Noth because he wasn't topping the meters. He was so focused on being top DPS that he didn't bother with what few mechanics actually matter.

Bigly Yikes.

What we've got here is someone that doesn't understand how basic mechanics work

[Myradin]

It's been more than ten years but I remember that you were hitcapped with 4 or 5 ICC items, even with reforging. T10 had almost twice as much secondary stats as T7. I think it started in T9 when your main concern for reforging was to get down to all your caps.

Reforging wasnt a thing till Cata.

[SinR]

Actually I forgot the other holy war, guns with tank stats. Are there any in Naxx and are they actually good for hunters?

Warrior's best is the Engineering Gun IIRC. Armor plated shotgun or something like that. There's no +Str +Tanky stats in Naxx, I think one in Ulduar, and two in ICC. One gun in Ulduar that has Str and DPS stats on it too. And there's a throwing weapon with tanky stats in TOC.

Any warrior tank that is rolling on Agi ranged weapons is doing it wrong.

[JamesTeeple]

As I would prioritise dpsers to hit things and healers to MP5 items if I were the leader.
That's all there is to it: both accept haste/crit.
However, other leaders may have their own ideas. For this reason. ML is a great method for distributing plunder since it provides people a choice in how to proceed.

[God Save The King]

I would even argue that right now in p1 you safe more mana by giving mp5 items to a dps if its an damage increase.(The math probably proves me very wrong here) But there are no fights i have seen that require healers to have gear or a lot of mana regen. Just funnel your dps all the gear so the killtimes get even lower than they already are.

A good piece might net a player 100-150dps if it's around 26 ilvl upgrade, statted well, and in a big slot (e.g. heroic dungeon blue to KT/Maly 25 drop). Let's use torch as an example for argument. My boomkin alt current sims about 6.4k dps single target. Swapping my titansteel spellblade for torch ups my dps about 130. Patchwerk, in 25m, has 16.96m. My guild does him in about 130s. So raid dps of about 130k. My new dps shaves the killtime down to 129.85s. Using the above math, my shaman burns about 1030 mp5. In 0.15s, that is 31 mana spent. Over the course of a 130s fight fight, 19 mp5 from torch would net me 494 mana.

Now the real trick is, last week with just mana pot + tide, I did not oom on patchwerk. So torch would have netted me 0 effective mana. It comes back to kill times and if that mp5 would actually do anything. Most guilds/logs I've looked at in the 50%+ range get basically no value from spirit/mp5 because of killtimes and excess mana at the end of each fight on heals.

[Rusken]

Actually I forgot the other holy war, guns with tank stats. Are there any in Naxx and are they actually good for hunters?

There aren't any tank focused ranged weapons in Naxx. The crafted one is arguably better than all Naxx drops for Prot Warrs, although they'd probably take an Arrowsong if no one else needed it.

The tanking gun in Ulduar is pretty bad for Hunters, as it has strength and full tank stats on it. Someone who skipped Naxx might take it if there's no Warriors in the group but otherwise they'd obviously prefer something else.

[Linkedblade]

the class has to be taken into consideration,

Mage:
Arcane Mage, they are using more mana than most classes a little MP5 goes a long way to the sustain in their burst window.

Yeah for arcane an item with mp5 and/or spi is fine. I know crit is lower on the stat priority, but it spi does convert to crit thanks to molten armor. And of course mp5 and int are welcome.

[Segus1992]

Yeah for arcane an item with mp5 and/or spi is fine. I know crit is lower on the stat priority, but it spi does convert to crit thanks to molten armor. And of course mp5 and int are welcome.

Big difference between spirit, int, and mp5. Spirit and int both increase damage, whereas mp5 does not. General priority should be bis > mp5 gear to healers > rest.

[Linkedblade]

Big difference between spirit, int, and mp5. Spirit and int both increase damage, whereas mp5 does not. General priority should be bis > mp5 gear to healers > rest.

Talking about bis is strange, an upgrade is an upgrade regardless of some idyllic perfect set of gear.