Assume the game had extremely minimal grinding: what's the worst that can happen?

[Jimson]

How do you do all 3 fated raids in 2 weeks? I suspect porkies

From the sounds of it (and this is just speculation) he had a group of friends/guildies to carry him through content.

[Toph Nasty]

And when people lust for gear they don't actually care about that; their true purpose is to feel more powerful compared to other people; and the best way to do that is to rank better at downing bosses instead of going on mundane time wasting grinds.

If we're talking about PvP I would agree with you, I don't believe that most players necessarily care about their gear when it comes to PvP as long as it makes them more powerful than whoever they are playing. I don't believe that this is the case for PvE though. Yes, players want to get better gear to be higher up on the DPS meter and brag to their friends/guild about being top DPS. But that is not the sole reason players want better gear and to become more powerful.

Gear gives you power which gives you a sense of progression. Throughout an expansion you get more gear and become more powerful which makes the content you were doing at the beginning of the expansion easier than it previously was. The other "benefit" to getting gear and becoming more powerful is that gear helps make up for skill. Now the reason I put benefit in quotes is that you could easily argue that this is actually a bad thing but I will touch on that later. From my experience players who focus on PvE content look at item drops from the new raid or dungeon and get excited about potential loot. They look at what piece of gear they want for each boss and some even change their main based on a cool new item that is going to be in an upcoming patch.

I'm not sure as many people would continue to play if gear no longer drops after you hit a specific "cap" because they want that reward for killing the boss. Getting loot after killing a boss has been a core mechanic to gameplay for the entire RPG genera, not just MMOs. You could make the argument that D&D would be less fun if there wasn't loot after you killed a powerful foe.

But let's say there is a system in place that gives you a new full set of gear from completing the main storyline and that gear scales with you as you level. This will be the gear you use and have for the rest of the expansion. How does progression work now? You mention that for players to feel more powerful they need to "rank better". Would there be a leaderboard of some type where players would compete against one another for faster kill times, top DPS, least damage taken, and other stats?

You keep talking about equalizing gear and that it shouldn't take players hours to grind gear. Are you against grinding gear to be able to do current content, so after you hit max level and maybe run a couple of dungeons you should be geared enough for the raid? If that is the case I would assume that you would be against the higher-difficulty M+ and Mythic raiding. Or are you against players being able to become so powerful they can make up for their lack of skill and complete more difficult content they don't "deserve" to do?

[Ateo]

Mentioned this in a reply already on how I did it, I came back on a Friday was done on a Tuesday reset So took me roughly 2 resets to do this.


For those who would like to do the same simply lead your own groups so no one cares about your characters ilvl nor achievements. This is also how I got KSM in 2 weeks, I pushed my own key from a 0-19 in 1 week and then sniped all m+ groups I needed to get KSM in 1 rotation. I then proceeded to farm +2-8s to max out my ilvl between runs of 15-18s.

I'm a former high end mythic raider so looking up normal fated mode strategies and leading the pug was not much of a challenge to me.

Biggest hurdle I'm having as a returning player is getting my elite gear now, as pvp against all this covenant bullshit is very annoying. Pushed from 0-1675 in 1 day. Then got rolled down to 1500 lol. Quite the frustrating experience with these new 1 shot comps. However I think I may get 1800 before end of season but it's kind of a hail mary at this point.

Tldr, game isn't hard just prioritize your game play goals and don't be scared to lead a group, even if you have no idea what you're doing YouTube on a 2nd screen and simply understanding your class will take you further than you expect. Fated normal and 2k m+ is a cake walk, pvp is the road block right now.

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I did this "solo", the only 2 irl friends I have playing retail right now are my brother and girlfriend both returned same day as me after skipping Shadowlands.

I did not get carried and I did this without a guild. I started from mythic 0 and with me leading groups (aka not applying to groups in group finder, I pushed my own keys) and I started and led the Fated normal raids.

Yes in the pugs there were many wipes. But I simply just kept reforming when idiots left group. All this took was determination and not being scared of social interactions lol. Also, it's normal mode not mythic stop acting as if this was some super roadblock of skill/gear, it's not Lol

[Archy]

Then why do you want a mundane and easy time-wasting grind? Just equalize the gear, so you can compete cleanly.

I already answered this in the post you quoted. Read it again.

[epigramx]

Yes, players want to get better gear to be higher up on the DPS meter and brag to their friends/guild about being top DPS. But that is not the sole reason players want better gear and to become more powerful.

You can postulate about that and it's the first thing I considered, but at the end of the day it all depends on the answer to the question: would they even play the game more than once an instance if it was a single-player game?

Since it's pretty blatantly obvious most people would not play for months and years a single player game of this sort: they care about the multiplayer aspect and: the multiplayer aspect is closely tied to competition always.

[Niwes]

So what. If it's wrong change it. I don't see why Vanilla was better with gear grinding; they've already admitted mistakes anyway; e.g. the RNG of the early legendaries was just a blatantly unfair mess and they later admitted gear grinding sucks at least for PvP etc.

i am not sure, what today exactly the audience is for Blizz. i am also not sure, if you, your opinion and your wishes represent the majority. so, maybe, just a thought, there is no need to change the „gear carrot on a stick core mechanics“. from your perspective? maybe. from the perspective of the majority of players? not sure. from Blizzards perspective, to earn more money? very very unsure.

so, yeah, what shall i say? in the end it’s your opinion. and that’s fine. but i would not bet, that the game is changing that much, into a direction that fits your opinion better. personally i would not bet on that. but that’s just me. in the end it will come down to „you get what you see. if you don’t like what you see, play another game.“ simple as that.

[epigramx]

not sure, what today exactly the audience is for Blizz.

not sure, if you, your opinion and your wishes represent the majority

That's a form of survivorship bias, because if you ask the current subscribers: of course they may disagree or convince themselves they disagree (cognitive dissonance is a thing).
But the current subscribers are much fewer than in the past and in a world of more gamers/people online too so it's not necessarily the best design at all.

[Soikona]

From the sounds of it (and this is just speculation) he had a group of friends/guildies to carry him through content.

So not an accurate representation?

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So what. If it's wrong change it. I don't see why Vanilla was better with gear grinding; they've already admitted mistakes anyway; e.g. the RNG of the early legendaries was just a blatantly unfair mess and they later admitted gear grinding sucks at least for PvP etc.

I don’t think gear grinding sucks. Well, I suppose it depends on what you mean. Grinding keys at the start of a season/expansion sucks, but I don’t mind farming raids.

Mainly because when I do my weekly lockout, that’s it. With keys, at least at higher world ranks, you are expected to always be doing keys for trinkets and etc which I just don’t have the time for.

Imo, it’s a horrible feeling to have the skill to compete but just not the time. I think that’s a big issue.

[pharma]

All games should have some sort of grind so players can feel accomplishment in the end. What really matters is the scale of the grind, and MMORPGs, of all genres, should have the bigger grinds because the MMORPG genre is a game which requires dedication.

The problem is that devs usualy take advantage of that grind requirements to keep players paying subs for as long as possible.

That said, if WoW had minimal grinds, Blizz would have to compensate that loss of subs with lots of in-game store content to keep the money coming.

[epigramx]

it’s a horrible feeling to have the skill to compete but just not the time

I don't see where you disagree then; that's exactly the point; to play what you actually like: PvE.
It's not even necessarily profitable to the devs because they may lose people in the long term.
It just makes a worse game to be unable to play what you like (PvE) instead of grinding.

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All games should have some sort of grind so players can feel accomplishment

Nobody actually feels good in PvE just because they grind. They feel good if they feel more powerful against other people.
And the best way to feel more powerful than other people is to rank better than them without wasting your time grinding.

[VinceVega]

There are only 2 Types of PC games you play for years on end: (I am ignoring mobile type games for now like CandyCrush etc)

1. Sandbox games like Builders or strategy: Minecraft, City Builders, Stellaris

Because every game is different. There is no real "goal" to achive. Player generated content so to speak. Also Mods.

2. MMOs with every type of online activity with other players.

PvP games on one side, because again, every game is different so you have new experiences every game
PvE like the PvE part of Wow or FF14 etc.
How do you keep players from quitting early? Once you have seen the raid it doesn't change. Dungeons are the same everytime, which got a bit of a push towarsd PvP type of replayabilitie with mythic+ but still with a ceyling.
In a single player rpg you don't run a dungeon multiple times. You do it once and maybe again years later if you go for a replay.

Grinds is the answer to that. Grinding for iLvl in the case of groupcontent. Cosmetic rewards are a bonus but many people don't really care about that.

The only reason for wow to exist for nearly 2 decades is that players always had SOMETHING to grind for. Be it in single player for open world stuff or in group content for the rewards you are not guaranteed the second you kill the boss the first time.

It is OF COURSE a way for the dev to keep you playing.
Imagine they removed RNG and Grinds from wow.

First week. Cleared raid. Done... you cannot gain anything from it anymore. Ever. You have everything.

PvE content is not by itself evergreen.

[epigramx]

How do you keep players from quitting early?

Grinds is the answer to that.

Maybe in the short term. In the long term you may lose more because maybe people will realize they are being abused by a company trying to addict them in order to leech monthly fees from them when they never actually wanted to grind: they wanted to play PvE.

The game has much fewer subscribers in a world of much more internet users so the burden of proof is on those saying it doesn't have a flawed design.

[VinceVega]

Maybe in the short term. In the long term you may lose more because maybe people will realize they are being abused by a company trying to addict them in order to leech monthly fees from them when they never actually wanted to grind: they wanted to play PvE.

The game has much fewer subscribers in a world of much more internet users so the burden of proof is on those saying it doesn't have a flawed design.

No. There are no games in the world who keep you playing purley for intrinsic reasons. Not one.

Even single player games don't have that. They don't have to use grinds for it because they don't care how long you play the game. But there still are rewards systems in it like a carrot on a stick.

Also saying long term doesn't work when we can look back at nearly 2 decades of wow is... just disingenuous and frankly rather shows the opposite.
The game is there and it is still a financial success.
Did it loose players sure. For a bunch of reason. No monopoly on MMOs anymore. Playerbase grew up. Company internal problems. Etc. pp. Some people probably also quit because of whatever grind wow had. There is non to speak of anymore though. I just came back after quitting after castle. I had flying in not even a week everywhere.
Wow is not grindy. It was in legion. And it gives you stuff to do for every patch which is maybe timegated for a bunch of reason (which i like personally). But grinds? WHere? What? Anima? Purely optional. PvP Lvl? ALso optional. WQs? You can completly ignore them if you like no disadvantage whatsover.
Thorgast barely qualified as a grind compared to other games and you were done so fast.

Wow does not have a flawed design. It is simply an old game with an rapidly aging playerbase.

I honestly believe the story decisions sind wod have been the cause of more players leaving than any grind in the game by a long shot.
If the itemization is grinding for you than MMORPGs are not for you.

Is wo anywhere near dead? Not at all in any way shape or form.

Edit: Also the burden of proove is with you since you started this topic btw. I cannot put a theory up, say i am right and tell everyone else to disproove me. No one would take me serious. I have to deliver the proove in that case and people can look at the proove and pick it apart then. But the initial responsibility is with the person who initially started it.

[Soikona]

I don't see where you disagree then; that's exactly the point; to play what you actually like: PvE.
It's not even necessarily profitable to the devs because they may lose people in the long term.
It just makes a worse game to be unable to play what you like (PvE) instead of grinding.

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Nobody actually feels good in PvE just because they grind. They feel good if they feel more powerful against other people.
And the best way to feel more powerful than other people is to rank better than them without wasting your time grinding.

My bad then, I must have misunderstood what you wrote.

[Lodreh]

The thing is that if they remove the grindy part, they don't have nearly enough content for the game to last this long.

You say that as if it's a bad thing... if there is nothing else to do I can level a new character or be done until the next content drop... I don't need/want/like infinite grinds or no real progression.

[epigramx]

They don't have to use grinds for it because they don't care how long you play the game.

And many of us are aware of that abuse. We don't want to be addicted by the devs to a mundane grind for gear/power/enchants(/whatever) before we are even able to play end-game.
Either consciously or unconsciously: many of us completely quit the game BECAUSE you try to keep us with time-wasting grinds and that's unprofitable to Microsoft.

[Kuntantee]

The game would be fun again and that horrifies Blizzard developers.

[Lordofbelbol]

From the sounds of it (and this is just speculation) he had a group of friends/guildies to carry him through content.

Nice xD you wanted to feel superior to add to that person ignorance but showed ppl that you don't know how fated raids work xD keep farmin WQ and keep quiet

[Jimson]

Nice xD you wanted to feel superior to add to that person ignorance but showed ppl that you don't know how fated raids work xD keep farmin WQ and keep quiet

How fated raids work? As in, they reset each week? Yeah, it's possible that he did three in two weeks, but I was skeptical that he came back from a long break and just leaped into raiding without any help whatsoever.

[epigramx]

If warlords had more interesting dungeons (like adding m+), no legendary quest, and a full three tiers instead of two, it would have been a great expansion.

I'm pretty sure people misunderstand why they memed Warlords as "bad"; it had nothing to do with "nothing to do"; most people hate being addicted to mundane grinds anyway.
It was that stupid boring followers-game-table; it was practically required to min-max end-game; on top of it:; they had dozens of followers that took months to level and optimize.