Give the Horde better leaders.

[Maljinwo]

Ok, but what makes a great "war"............"chief"

Not King, not President, not god, but "warchief"? Strength does. Warchiefs arise in power by taking down all of their competitors vying for power, which was Cairne (via poison). Honestly, Cairne would have been a way cooler / better warchief imo than both Sylvanus and Garrosh, but Garrosh was definitely better than the current status quo.

The "Dumpster fire" was regarding all lore for why races can be certain classes. I posted a couple of example, but obviously not all. That's not cherry picking, it's making a ridiculously large post readable. When Blizzard decides to add classes to a race that didnt originally have access to the class, they make up a bunch of BS to explain it away. Like for example, Paladin Tauren.

A Warchief was originally intended as just a tool for war. Since the position was invented by the Shadow Council just to have Blackhand as a puppet.
I'd say the Warchief position had a lot more responsabilities than just going to war after Warcraft 3
Diplomacy, Resource Allocation, Industry, Trade... Anything a nation, or in this case the Horde, would need to prosper.

All lore is a bunch of bullshit someone came up with. I mean someone at some point came up with the Idea that orcs weren't actually mindless evil people that summoned daemons from hell as in Warcraft 1 and were instead corrupted by the Burning Legion, as they were originally shamanistic people with actual feelings and individual mindsets.
That's how lore is written. Sure, sometimes the lore is inherently bad or they retcon the shit out of the story.
But I'd rather have Sunwalkers in lore than someone on twitter saying "Oh yeah, Tauren Paladins exist and they are the same as humans"

[Aucald]

Oh, definitely not sudden, but part of your long standing pattern of bringing in tangents and distractions, and forcing discussion of those, typically to obfuscate. My mistake was in indulging that, rather than shutting it down quickly.

Then don't give me reason to believe you'd do it. You are notorious for rambling derails, followed by pronouncing "off topic!" to shut people up. I'm simply saving you the trouble.

Obviously. It's an attempt to distract and dodge having to discuss Thalyssra, while attacking a character for which you have expressed you have expressed dislike.

My initial reply to another user just concerned Thalyssra as a Horde diplomat - *you* brought up Tyrande and made the comment contrasting them, not me. Don't project your behavior onto other people in an attempt to duck out of having to own up to your own assertions and biases. And that is my final word on this sad tale.

[Feanoro]

My initial reply to another user just concerned Thalyssra as a Horde diplomat - *you* brought up Tyrande and made the comment contrasting them, not me. Don't project your behavior onto other people in an attempt to duck out of having to own up to your own assertions and biases. And that is my final word on this sad tale.

I made no contrast, nor a comparison of any kind.

Thalyssra is so much of a diplomat that she joined up with a sociopath after a Disneyland tour of Silvermoon, because Tyrande dared to question her. I don't know too many successful diplomats that thin skinned.

I made clear that I had no intention of doing so, yet you insisted on it. You kept trying to put words in my mouth, as you have always done to anyone who disagrees with you. You dare to talk about biases, when your dislike of a character leads to you trying to redefine words, derail, dismiss lore inconsistencies as unimportant, assign motives and views to me with zero basis, and now attempt to lecture me for YOUR behavior. I'll add this: Don't flat out lie in an attempt to duck out of being proven incorrect or having to entertain the idea that no one is obligated to agree with you.

As to final words, while I cannot use a certain forum feature, I will do my best to avoid engaging you in any way in the future. Should I forget, you have my blessing to remind me not to speak to you. Goodbye, Gatekeeper of Lore.

[Raisei]

Being a Horde emissary visiting a foreign head of state isn't at all tantamount to joining said foreign state, or else Anduin and Jaina revoked their own Alliance citizenship the moment they entered Orgrimmar to be part of Saurfang's funeral.

You are far too reasonable for this thread. For players like our Gazrug here even breathing so much as a word in the general direction of Stormwind is high treason punishable by triple death and eternity in the Maw.

[Aucald]

You are far too reasonable for this thread. For players like our Gazrug here even breathing so much as a word in the general direction of Stormwind is high treason punishable by triple death and eternity in the Maw.

It's a bit of a silly hill to die on, I think - the political realities of Azeroth have required the Horde and Alliance to work together on more than one occasion, all the way back to WC3 where they did so to repel the Legion in the Third War. WC3 is what, in my eyes, should've long ago put the Alliance/Horde conflict to bed, having joined forces to overcome a shared enemy and getting the understanding that despite old wounds they're really not so different. Sadly, all that forward development got tossed aside to retread the faction war, again and again, ad nauseum.

[Shadowferal]

They wear feathers and teeth in their outfits, worship the land, Tauren are not as intelligent as other races (which is why they cannot be a mage)... less intelligent being tend to give into their "wild side". Baine has been sitting down for the entirety of the Shadowlands... know why? Because he's confused bro. Like how in the heck can anyone look at a minotaur and say they aren't primal? They are the epidemy epitome of primal, like what else can top that? A feral cat with branches and twigs in fur?

While I appreciate your defense, I do think it's less apropos regarding horde sensibilities.
They have a shared belief system with night elves. (Which should be even more confusing) And my little hobby of rewriting lore would position them in a more neutral faction.

[ThatsOurEric]

All this thread has proven is how logic and common sense (Aucald) will always prevail when debating against someone
who talks without either (we all know who they are).

You have a lot more patience than I do, that's for sure.

[VladlTutushkin]

Legion was akin to that of "An enemy of my enemy is my friend". The Horde and Alliance fight each other for survival, the Legion threatens their existence; therefore, they were forced to join sides. Legion failed to convey the Horde as strong or heroic (Vol'jin getting smacked down like it was nothing and Sylvanus abandoning the Broken Shore). If anything, the only "heroic" act was Varian Wrynn holding back the Legion while everyone else escaped. So I guess I don't see how Legion proves that the Horde and Alliance have a consistent view of heroism. No case in point at all. If there's one case of heroism on the Horde side it's Broxigar jumping into a Legion portal and slaughtering hordes of demons down / cutting Sargeras. That wasn't heroism via self sacrifice, it was heroism via bloodlust

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Baine Bloodhoof is an Alliance simp and needs replaced. Cairne is rolling in his grave. The rest of the Tauren were being eliminated by the centaur and needed a strong ally that was close (hint Orgrimmar)

And i already explained in detail while “bloodthirsty” Horde cannot exist in MMO without constant scapegoating and backpedaling to return to status quo. It is simply not feasible in the game format.

[Grazrug]

All this thread has proven is how logic and common sense (Aucald) will always prevail when debating against someone
who talks without either (we all know who they are).

You have a lot more patience than I do, that's for sure.

There is no logic in accepting a bad deal. Auclad might be happy with how Blizzard's handled the Horde but I will continue to critizise them for the broken dishes they left behind after Bfa was over.

[Raisei]

And i already explained in detail while “bloodthirsty” Horde cannot exist in MMO without constant scapegoating and backpedaling to return to status quo. It is simply not feasible in the game format.

Technically it is possible, but not at the level of writing we have.

SWTOR is doing it just fine. There are bloodthristy Sith that really exist just to destroy Jedi, there are pragmatically evil Sith who are ruthlessly following their ambitions and there are Sith that apart from their use of the Dark Side are not very different from the Jedi, in as much as they want to protect their people.

This works because the Sith government is relatively silent (The Emperor) while the theme of betrayal and personal ambitions is a given for the Sith, so not even the Dark Council speaks with one voice and the different factions keep scheming against each other.

The Horde is just not complex enough for that. If there is a Warchief then the entire Horde follows him or her implicitly. There are no factions at first despite that fact that there really really should be. Everyone is speaking with one voice, single identities are none-existant until the point where they are needed to paint the Warchief as the sole perpetrator and evil in the faction, whose removal magically erases all the blood that has been spilled.

For example Lot'themar and Liadrin really should not need Baine's capture and sheduled execution to see that Sylvanas is bad. Teldrassil made that very clear to anyone who isn't completely rotten to the core. Not to mention the Horde's druids, that just accept the fact that their Warchief is actively trying to murder one of if not THE greatest archdruid on the planet and did murder civilians for at best a shakily justified reason (towards the Horde, we know why she did it).

Yet we hear veeeeery little complaints. The two people speaking up being Baine and Saurfang and while the first is being silenced quickly (until the Derek plot) the second requires several month to do anything of note. Months in which the Horde does whatever Sylvanas says. Civilian cities are being blighted into dust, farmers are pinned to walls without so much as a murmur.

What about Thalyssra, who we freed from a murderous tyrant just month ago. How is she fine with Teldrassil? Those are still her people being slaughtered, even if they are not on speaking terms. Even if she is pissed at Tyrande... it was still even canonically also the Nightelves that faught for the Nightborne against Elisande, she'd have to have gone through a 180 degree turn on her character to be fine with this wholesale murder.

Or take Liadrin, a goddamn Paladin, that owes Velen and by extension the Draenei and Alliance her life free of Fel corruption and she happily joins the slaughter. There even is a world quest where she actively tells the player to kill a healer that is trying to protect wounded Alliance soldiers...

This is not a new complaint, but one I would wish the writers to really pick up on. If they intend to go back to the faction war then by all the Old Gods, they need to brush up on their political writing.
My hope is that we are never going back there, but I doubt that. Long as there players like the ones in this thread there will never be a lasting peace.

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There is no logic in accepting a bad deal. Auclad might be happy with how Blizzard's handled the Horde but I will continue to critizise them for the broken dishes they left behind after Bfa was over.

Yet you keep ignoring the fact that everything that happened in BFA happened because of one of the people you want back. You want a bloodthirsty Horde but you are complaining about an expansion where you got it.

I think the problem is that you want the Horde to be bloodthirsty AND win. Something that will never happen, because the Alliance will not be destroyed. It can't be, because it is a Player faction.

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It's a bit of a silly hill to die on, I think - the political realities of Azeroth have required the Horde and Alliance to work together on more than one occasion, all the way back to WC3 where they did so to repel the Legion in the Third War. WC3 is what, in my eyes, should've long ago put the Alliance/Horde conflict to bed, having joined forces to overcome a shared enemy and getting the understanding that despite old wounds they're really not so different. Sadly, all that forward development got tossed aside to retread the faction war, again and again, ad nauseum.

Agreed. I do not understand why we keep repeating this cycle. It was pointless in MoP and then it was downright frustrating in BFA, because everyone thought that maybe this time they would implement some drastic change so that it would not be MoP 2.0, like actually merging the factions. Turns out everyone was wrong and Blizzard did repeat MoP exactly. Including the evil Warchief fleeing to a different realm and joining the army of the next big threat to Azeroth.

How they thought that this would look in any way positive to the playerbase is just beyond me. Even if it is true and the team had to play catch-up after Afrasiabi got kicked out, I think that a better story then the rest of BFA and the total mess that was SLs was absolutely possible.

I hope that DF will be better, I really do. because this time Danuser has no one to blame but himself.

[Grazrug]

Technically it is possible, but not at the level of writing we have.

SWTOR is doing it just fine. There are bloodthristy Sith that really exist just to destroy Jedi, there are pragmatically evil Sith who are ruthlessly following their ambitions and there are Sith that apart from their use of the Dark Side are not very different from the Jedi, in as much as they want to protect their people.

This works because the Sith government is relatively silent (The Emperor) while the theme of betrayal and personal ambitions is a given for the Sith, so not even the Dark Council speaks with one voice and the different factions keep scheming against each other.

The Horde is just not complex enough for that. If there is a Warchief then the entire Horde follows him or her implicitly. There are no factions at first despite that fact that there really really should be. Everyone is speaking with one voice, single identities are none-existant until the point where they are needed to paint the Warchief as the sole perpetrator and evil in the faction, whose removal magically erases all the blood that has been spilled.

For example Lot'themar and Liadrin really should not need Baine's capture and sheduled execution to see that Sylvanas is bad. Teldrassil made that very clear to anyone who isn't completely rotten to the core. Not to mention the Horde's druids, that just accept the fact that their Warchief is actively trying to murder one of if not THE greatest archdruid on the planet and did murder civilians for at best a shakily justified reason (towards the Horde, we know why she did it).

Yet we hear veeeeery little complaints. The two people speaking up being Baine and Saurfang and while the first is being silenced quickly (until the Derek plot) the second requires several month to do anything of note. Months in which the Horde does whatever Sylvanas says. Civilian cities are being blighted into dust, farmers are pinned to walls without so much as a murmur.

What about Thalyssra, who we freed from a murderous tyrant just month ago. How is she fine with Teldrassil? Those are still her people being slaughtered, even if they are not on speaking terms. Even if she is pissed at Tyrande... it was still even canonically also the Nightelves that faught for the Nightborne against Elisande, she'd have to have gone through a 180 degree turn on her character to be fine with this wholesale murder.

Or take Liadrin, a goddamn Paladin, that owes Velen and by extension the Draenei and Alliance her life free of Fel corruption and she happily joins the slaughter. There even is a world quest where she actively tells the player to kill a healer that is trying to protect wounded Alliance soldiers...

This is not a new complaint, but one I would wish the writers to really pick up on. If they intend to go back to the faction war then by all the Old Gods, they need to brush up on their political writing.
My hope is that we are never going back there, but I doubt that. Long as there players like the ones in this thread there will never be a lasting peace.

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Yet you keep ignoring the fact that everything that happened in BFA happened because of one of the people you want back. You want a bloodthirsty Horde but you are complaining about an expansion where you got it.

I think the problem is that you want the Horde to be bloodthirsty AND win. Something that will never happen, because the Alliance will not be destroyed. It can't be, because it is a Player faction.

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Agreed. I do not understand why we keep repeating this cycle. It was pointless in MoP and then it was downright frustrating in BFA, because everyone thought that maybe this time they would implement some drastic change so that it would not be MoP 2.0, like actually merging the factions. Turns out everyone was wrong and Blizzard did repeat MoP exactly. Including the evil Warchief fleeing to a different realm and joining the army of the next big threat to Azeroth.

How they thought that this would look in any way positive to the playerbase is just beyond me. Even if it is true and the team had to play catch-up after Afrasiabi got kicked out, I think that a better story then the rest of BFA and the total mess that was SLs was absolutely possible.

I hope that DF will be better, I really do. because this time Danuser has no one to blame but himself.

Bfa was not about the Horde being bloodhirsty. It was about the Horde loathing itself while the alliance rolled around collecting victories left and right. Like literally NOTHING good happened for the Horde because a of something that was a minor issue in every other game. In SWTOR you can torch entire planets and nobody bats an eye. But suddenly a single city goes burst and Baine and Saurfang stage a coup against the legitemate government? Sorry but no. I will not stand for this. You can't impose human morals on a faction that is made up of monsters and misfits. The burning of Teldrassil should be celebrated. Not frowned.

[Feanoro]

What about Thalyssra, who we freed from a murderous tyrant just month ago. How is she fine with Teldrassil? Those are still her people being slaughtered, even if they are not on speaking terms. Even if she is pissed at Tyrande... it was still even canonically also the Nightelves that faught for the Nightborne against Elisande

Oh, but as we've been informed, a few words asking how she can be trusted 100% justifies her Jekyll and Hyde transformation between Legion and BfA.

she'd have to have gone through a 180 degree turn on her character to be fine with this wholesale murder.

Which is exactly what happened, right up until there were 30 foot neon letters spelling out that just maybe Sylvie was using the Horde.

My hope is that we are never going back there, but I doubt that. Long as there players like the ones in this thread there will never be a lasting peace.

Sadly, smart money says to expect MoP 3.0 in the future.

because this time Danuser has no one to blame but himself.

Nonsense, Blizzard will follow the example set by other franchises that went down the toilet and blame the audience. That's already started.

[Raisei]

Bfa was not about the Horde being bloodhirsty. It was about the Horde loathing itself while the alliance rolled around collecting victories left and right. Like literally NOTHING good happened for the Horde because a of something that was a minor issue in every other game. In SWTOR you can torch entire planets and nobody bats an eye. But suddenly a single city goes burst and Baine and Saurfang stage a coup against the legitemate government? Sorry but no. I will not stand for this. You can't impose human morals on a faction that is made up of monsters and misfits. The burning of Teldrassil should be celebrated. Not frowned.

You really are living in an alternate reality. Nothing you say makes sense.

The fact that you call the murder of an entire city full of civilians "a minor issue" and that it should be celebrated tells us a lot about what kind of a person you are...

And again, you are still completely and utterly ignoring the fucking fact that Sylvanas wasn't working for the goddamn Horde. She was working for the Jailer. The Horde was nothing to her, she would have killed you all. We have her own words ordering the deaths of several of the Horde's heroes and her monologue in front of Orgrimmar that prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt. How are you not getting this through your brain?

Baine and Saurfang saved the entire friggin organisation when they rebelled against her. How do you keep talking about nonsense like "legitimate government" when this is the proven truth?

By this point you are either trolling or you are really hard RPing a mentally challenged Orc. With your ability to ignore the reality in front of you, I would say that you should go into politics, but the thought of you having any kind of power over people or armies frightens me deeply.

[Ramz]

I also dislike BfA immensely, albeit for likely different reasons than you. I never really thought Rastakhan was a great leader for the Zandalari, and I wasn't said to see him go in BfA and like Bwonsamdi, I felt he'd been chewing the scenery for too long already. But I also dislike the faction war as a story arc on its face and find expansions where it comes to the fore among the weakest WoW has to offer. Plus, as I think we've previously agreed on, I really dislike what they did to N'Zoth and his story arc in BfA's closing patch.

I think Rastakhan had potential to show a true greatness. He wouldn't be the King for over 200 years if he was super incompetent. Zandalari loved him, and even lower caste trolls respected him (as was seen how they all gathered to his funeral). He made mistakes, he became complacent, but after the assasination he got a bucket of cold water and was working his behind to fix his mistakes. I believe it would be much better story than just offing him as devs did. That is a true redemption story I could get behind, and trolls wouldn't lose enother long established hero the moment he appeared in game which was incredibly discouraging.

Rastakhan and Talanji could compliment each other, and Talanji could roam the world working as his Right Hand, while Rastakhan stays on the throne and continues to make amendmends for his faults.

In the end he was incredibly charismatic, and he even came up with clever code language that only he and his bodyguards knew, the fact that he survived over 40 assasination attacks is not a small feat as well. I'm sure the experiences in BfA could make him improve as leader greatly.

But the more I think about BfA the more Zandalari lore appears to be super messy, and there were enormous missed opportiunities that could give a much greater pay-off that was provided. But that is another subject.

[Grazrug]

You really are living in an alternate reality. Nothing you say makes sense.

The fact that you call the murder of an entire city full of civilians "a minor issue" and that it should be celebrated tells us a lot about what kind of a person you are...

And again, you are still completely and utterly ignoring the fucking fact that Sylvanas wasn't working for the goddamn Horde. She was working for the Jailer. The Horde was nothing to her, she would have killed you all. We have her own words ordering the deaths of several of the Horde's heroes and her monologue in front of Orgrimmar that prove this beyond the shadow of a doubt. How are you not getting this through your brain?

Baine and Saurfang saved the entire friggin organisation when they rebelled against her. How do you keep talking about nonsense like "legitimate government" when this is the proven truth?

By this point you are either trolling or you are really hard RPing a mentally challenged Orc. With your ability to ignore the reality in front of you, I would say that you should go into politics, but the thought of you having any kind of power over people or armies frightens me deeply.

Saurfang and his rebels were in the minority. The majority of the Horde kept supporting Sylvanas until the confrontation infront of Orgrimmar. What Baine did afterwards as he admittet control of the Horde council was to make the faction a puppet state in the service of Anduin. We know this because he stood in the royal court during the N'zoth patch. Baine's top priority never was the Horde. He only cares about his human friends Jaina and Anduin. Just listen to his dialouge with Mayla on wowhead. Anytime he talks it will be either about making peace with the alliance or sending Anduin another part of his body. That is all Blizzard uses him for.

[Shadowferal]

The majority of the Horde were nothing more than puppets for the Jailer.

[VladlTutushkin]

Bfa was not about the Horde being bloodhirsty. It was about the Horde loathing itself while the alliance rolled around collecting victories left and right. Like literally NOTHING good happened for the Horde because a of something that was a minor issue in every other game. In SWTOR you can torch entire planets and nobody bats an eye. But suddenly a single city goes burst and Baine and Saurfang stage a coup against the legitemate government? Sorry but no. I will not stand for this. You can't impose human morals on a faction that is made up of monsters and misfits. The burning of Teldrassil should be celebrated. Not frowned.

In SWTOR sith end up extinct eventually.

Just putting it out here.

With only two and like a 5 or so knock offs left by the time of Star Wars movies.

[Raisei]

Saurfang and his rebels were in the minority. The majority of the Horde kept supporting Sylvanas until the confrontation infront of Orgrimmar. What Baine did afterwards as he admittet control of the Horde council was to make the faction a puppet state in the service of Anduin. We know this because he stood in the royal court during the N'zoth patch. Baine's top priority never was the Horde. He only cares about his human friends Jaina and Anduin. Just listen to his dialouge with Mayla on wowhead. Anytime he talks it will be either about making peace with the alliance or sending Anduin another part of his body. That is all Blizzard uses him for.

And you are still ignoring the truth about Sylvanas. You complain insessantly about Baine, the guy that safed the Horde from being anima to feed the Jailer, for having friends in the Alliance (something that has benefited the Horde greatly several times already) but you love Sylvanas, who actually betrayed the Horde, something she has admitted to and has been judged for (albeit much too lightly).

There is no real point to continue this discussion. You are either unable or unwilling to accept the reality of the lore and I see no worth in arguing against the fanfiction you have in your head that you somehow think is what happens in game. You are living in a fantasy and as long as that is the basis for your arguments, we are talking about two different worlds.

Oh well, probably you will consider this a victory, much like you have misconstrued EVERYONE DISAGREEING with you as them wanting to hear what you have to say. But whatever. I do not have the patience of Aucald to humor you.

[Varodoc]

In SWTOR sith end up extinct eventually.

Just putting it out here.

With only two and like a 5 or so knock offs left by the time of Star Wars movies.

And they definitely, undoubtedly, decisively go extinct at the end of the Disney trilogy, as their cult and their last emperor are destroyed. Meanwhile, the Jedi live on through Rey and the Republic is restored from the ashes of the First Order.

Empire = Horde are doomed for failure.

Republic = Alliance are destined for success.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if High King Anduin of the Alliance will be the one to lead the forces of Azeroth against the Void Lords.

[Raisei]

In SWTOR sith end up extinct eventually.

Just putting it out here.

With only two and like a 5 or so knock offs left by the time of Star Wars movies.

In fact the Sith Empire is destroyed 4 seperate times. Once in the Old Republic timeline with only Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness surviving, then when Bane wiped that one out, then when the Skywalkers destroyed Palpatines Empire and finally when the First/Last Order is wiped out.

Evil Empires always fail. Both in real world history as in media, simply because evil people cannot rule without trampling on others, thus creating hate, thus creating rebellion, the end is preprogrammed. The Sith are especially difficult, since their entire believe is founded on the individual getting ahead by betrayal and guile and power. The only reason Tenebrae's Empire survived for a thousand years is that he was ungodly powerful and immortal, so none of the Sith could dream of surplanting him, the Dark Council on the other hand constantly swapped members because they couldn't stop with the intrigues and thus weaked the Empire from within again and again.
A man like Darth Baras for example was a brilliant strategist and politician, who almost single-handedly orchestrated the Sacking of Coruscant, if he hadn't tried to kill the future Hand of the Emperor for petty reasons, he would have been extremely useful to the Empire.