Dragonflight Beta SPOILERS! Titan Lore Objects

[Clawsout]

Blizzard wishes they could pull of such a functioning trainwreck

I agree but they direly want it in there writing

[Combatbutler]

You're still conflating "not infinite" with "pathetically small" for no real reason but to justify your own scorn. There are a number of happy mediums between infinite and infinitesimal, after all. WoW's physical universe can be finite and fundamentally traversable given enough time, especially for beings with the power of the Titans, who are god-like at the very least.

I won't continue arguing schematics, though if blizz does go down this route eventually, their scaling is already pathetic beyond belief it will be just another reason to make fun of the writing

How else would they "safeguard" her if not to hide her from forces which you helpfully point out already know her location in a matter of speaking? Whether through masking her presence, or somehow shielding her from access, the result is essentially the same insofar as the inability to access goes. The Titans knew that the Void was a threat, and they knew that demons were a threat (which is why they dispatched Aggramar and Sargeras to deal with them in the place), and they also knew that demons were attracted to the Arcane from prior experience. It all flows together without the need for external props.

Again not hinted at, never mentioned in all of the franchise and as such I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they ever do decide to make your speculation canon, I will treat it pretty much the same as our genius Mr clean of the afterlife, picking it apart it for fun.

[Aucald]

Again not hinted at, never mentioned in all of the franchise and as such I am not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. If they ever do decide to make your speculation canon, I will treat it pretty much the same as our genius Mr clean of the afterlife, picking it apart it for fun.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. You won't be convinced, and I'm not to be dissuaded it's not the obvious outcome of what's already known, so it is what it is.

[Combatbutler]

I agree but they direly want it in there writing

Well for one, blizz utterly sucks at conveying scale or any kind of threat really. The united armies of 10 backwater cities beat pretty much the equivalent of the warhammer chaos armies.

[Edlarel]

That's actually incredibly cool, and I enjoy how all of it makes sense from what we've seen before now. This is absolutely something that the Titans would do, and their keeping any possible good things done by the Old Gods (in pursuit of their own goal) has been demonstrated as well by the Light in trying to silence Alleria.

In reading this, it paints a proper picture of the allegiance between the Light and the Titans (Order). They joined forces to be the "good guys" united against everybody else who didn't follow them, including Life and Death.

[Aucald]

That's actually incredibly cool, and I enjoy how all of it makes sense from what we've seen before now. This is absolutely something that the Titans would do, and their keeping any possible good things done by the Old Gods (in pursuit of their own goal) has been demonstrated as well by the Light in trying to silence Alleria.

In reading this, it paints a proper picture of the allegiance between the Light and the Titans (Order). They joined forces to be the "good guys" united against everybody else who didn't follow them, including Life and Death.

One element to point out is that this is the Keepers speaking on behalf of the Titans, without them necessarily knowing or understanding the Titans' actual perspectives on the matter firsthand. We know the Keepers are imminently fallible by nature (e.g. corrupted Loken, vainglorious Odyn, depressive Ra, etc.), so it's entirely likely they don't have the full picture behind the conflict of Void and Order themselves and are just injecting their own viewpoints and opinions onto the matter without effective oversight. Odyn, especially, would be all for invoking the authority of the Titans without actually bothering to question the veracity of what he's ordering.

[Combatbutler]

Why are you downplaying the power of a Titan and the size of WoWs Physical Reality?

That would be Aucald, I said it should be as it is described infinite, the problem would be breaking that continuity and as always not properly taking care of scale, it is something that runs rampant in the warcraft universe, things are always far too small as they should be in the lore.

Prime example populations of the races, number of cities towns, villages. Etc.

Your logic of "bad writing" is as bad as the arguments you claim are "baseless and purely speculatory". Bad writing isn't an argument. Try again.

Of course it is, if your story constantly contradicts itself and is filled with such yikes moments like the jailer, then it is just plain bad.

[Polybius]

That would be Aucald, I said it should be as it is described infinite, the problem would be breaking that continuity and as always not properly taking care of scale, it is something that runs rampant in the warcraft universe, things are always far too small as they should be in the lore.

Prime example populations of the races, number of cities towns, villages. Etc.





Of course it is, if your story constantly contradicts itself and is filled with such yikes moments like the jailer, then it is just plain bad.

Not only that, but adding layers to the onion each time they run out of ideas. Cliches are for amateurs.

[Aucald]

Why are you downplaying the power of a Titan and the size of WoWs Physical Reality?

That would be Aucald, I said it should be as it is described infinite, the problem would be breaking that continuity and as always not properly taking care of scale, it is something that runs rampant in the warcraft universe, things are always far too small as they should be in the lore.

Combatbulter isn't downplaying a Titan's size or the size of the physical universe, and neither am I, really. Titans are planet-sized entities capable of interstellar travel under their own power (the speed of which is an unknown), and similarly, we also know that the universe is finite in size because we know that Sargeras' Burning Crusade was approaching success, with Azeroth being noted as "the Final Titan," and subsequently the last of the worlds Sargeras needed to corrupt and/or destroy to complete his goal of ending the Void's threat to the universe. Also, as I previously stated, we know that the physical universe is bordered by the other realms of existence in the metacosm, especially the Twisting Nether, which is where the physical universe canonically ends and other realms begin. The same is probably also true of the realms of Order, Death, Void, Light, and so on - roughly matching the cosmological chart in Chonicle Vol. 1 with "Reality" in the center of the metacosm, bounded by other six primordial realms.

The physical universe of Warcraft is vast, no doubt, likely hundreds of galaxies or galactic clusters, but I'd say it is on the whole smaller than the actual universe we inhabit in terms of its scale and breadth. It would take eons to raze it all down - but eons are exactly what immortal demons have, and so did their former corrupted Dark Titan leader.

[Skytotem]

It always seemed to me that all cosmic forces have good and bad things

Mod Edit: Don't quote a series of a large images for a one-sentence reply.

That statement doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted, which is my issue with the way they're -writing- that nuance or rather NOT writing it.

They're telling us the Void can have good things... while only showing us the Void as soul eating monsters that talk about how we'll have eternities of torment and slavery.

THAT is the problem, not that the void CAN have good things, but that they're not SHOWING it.

[Feanoro]

That statement doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted, which is my issue with the way they're -writing- that nuance or rather NOT writing it.

They're telling us the Void can have good things... while only showing us the Void as soul eating monsters that talk about how we'll have eternities of torment and slavery.

THAT is the problem, not that the void CAN have good things, but that they're not SHOWING it.

One of Blizzard's most consistent traits is their lack of consistency between show and tell.

[Rhlor]

That statement doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted, which is my issue with the way they're -writing- that nuance or rather NOT writing it.

They're telling us the Void can have good things... while only showing us the Void as soul eating monsters that talk about how we'll have eternities of torment and slavery.

THAT is the problem, not that the void CAN have good things, but that they're not SHOWING it.

Natalie Seline, founder of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, before she died, she sent her soul to the void and, according to herself, she was in such a wonderful place that she did not want to return.
that is to say that in the void there must exist a nice place.

[Skytotem]

Natalie Seline, founder of the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, before she died, she sent her soul to the void and, according to herself, she was in such a wonderful place that she did not want to return.
that is to say that in the void there must exist a nice place.

Don't inject words, she never said 'wonderful'

I cannot deny the part of me that would stay there forever, embraced by the shadows.

This is so vague as to be meaningless. There's no 'show' there. It's just more 'tell'.

[Raven]

That statement doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted, which is my issue with the way they're -writing- that nuance or rather NOT writing it.

They're telling us the Void can have good things... while only showing us the Void as soul eating monsters that talk about how we'll have eternities of torment and slavery.

THAT is the problem, not that the void CAN have good things, but that they're not SHOWING it.

But at the same time its hard to show when we havent actually meet anyone yet other then Xal'atath.

And her actions was in a way a very small proof that they are not only evil, since she didnt try to kill us the second she was freed.

[Feanoro]

But at the same time its hard to show when we havent actually meet anyone yet other then Xal'atath.

And her actions was in a way a very small proof that they are not only evil, since she didnt try to kill us the second she was freed.

Not killing us outright only proves she was calculating how to use us to her advantage. It says nothing about her being evil.

[Skytotem]

But at the same time its hard to show when we havent actually meet anyone yet other then Xal'atath.

And her actions was in a way a very small proof that they are not only evil, since she didnt try to kill us the second she was freed.

I mean, that's... that's what I'm criticizing. That they keep not showing us. You say it's hard to show... because they haven't showed us. That's a circular argument.

And Xal'atah not trying to murder us doesn't mean she's not evil, she's a manipulator.

[Vasti]

But at the same time its hard to show when we havent actually meet anyone yet other then Xal'atath.

And her actions was in a way a very small proof that they are not only evil, since she didnt try to kill us the second she was freed.

Yes, maybe blizzard ought to have introduced us to some more void people before.
Maybe if they did, we could see that not all of them are evil.
But they didn't.

Which is the issue

[Myradin]

Technically the Arakkoa we work with in WoD are void worshippers who are being persecuted by the crazy light guys.

The Klaxxi actually happily worked with us until we opposed Garrosh using the heart.

[Rhlor]

Don't inject words, she never said 'wonderful'



This is so vague as to be meaningless. There's no 'show' there. It's just more 'tell'.

if she wanted to continue there it is because it must be such a good place that she would not want to return

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Technically the Arakkoa we work with in WoD are void worshippers who are being persecuted by the crazy light guys.

The Klaxxi actually happily worked with us until we opposed Garrosh using the heart.

and evil botani is clearly life. all cosmic forces can be good or bad

[Le Conceptuel]

Don't inject words, she never said 'wonderful'



This is so vague as to be meaningless. There's no 'show' there. It's just more 'tell'.

That strikes me more as though she's acknowledging there's a side of her that lusts for the Void, a small part of her that has gone insane and fully embraced the Void and that there's something there not entirely dissimilar from the less-savory followers of the Void we've met before, not that she's saying that she actually yearns to return.

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I mean, that's... that's what I'm criticizing. That they keep not showing us. You say it's hard to show... because they haven't showed us. That's a circular argument.

I brought it up before, but I like the idea that it's not strictly that the Void actually has some kind of traditionally "good" side we haven't seen yet, but rather that it's simply capable of producing great things in terms of magnitude and power—that it can build powerful civilizations and make unprecedented advances. The Mantid and Nerubians show precisely how a functional society descended from the Void could look—the former Darwinistic and violently xenophobic and the latter at least implied to be xenophobic and potentially evil, but both being extremely advanced societies with a strong habit of innovation. There is no denying that these societies were successful and powerful in their respective heydays in spite of their cruel nature. I think this creates a far more appealing and interesting dynamic than the hidden existence of some great good within the Void we have yet to see.

Rather, it shows the dark practicality of the Void, the precise results of the "thousand futures" Blizzard's been cramming down our throats at every possible stop. Although it's thus far been portrayed as meaning "free will lol", perhaps something more interesting could come of the Void being a force of cruel self-determination, one in which the weak are expected to be trampled underfoot, and in which great people oversee unprecedented innovation and advancement and pursue themselves to the absolute zenith, yet at the cost of others. This arguably gives the Void a great deal more depth by framing it as a force of potential and innovation, yet simultaneously making it even more insidious by virtue of applying a framework of selfishness and Darwinism to its character, something far more recognizable as a force of true evil than "lol destroy the planet and condemn ourselves to an eternity of death and suffering because we're nebulously insane"