[Megathread] Nintendo Switch

[Hariboenjoyer]

Well well well. The thing I said would happen happened.
Where are all the tweetard mongoloids now?
Your silence is deafening.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-nintendo-game

they said, Taylor asked for a six-figure sum as well as residuals on the game.

It beggars belief that someone would really ask for that, but in this day and age you never know. IDK. He said she said.

[Tech614]

It beggars belief that someone would really ask for that, but in this day and age you never know. IDK. He said she said.

Jason Schreier is not a he said she said when it comes to investigative journalism and saying so is a discredit to him. He pretty much has an ironclad rep on these things, and he definitely wouldn't be reporting in favor of a corp if a worker was actually wronged as a large part of his investigative journalism is exposing bad working conditions in the industry.

[Jastall]

Jeez, six figures is maybe, maybe what a big name like Troy Baker gets for main roles in long, story-driven games like Joel in Last of Us. Even that is a big maybe as I don't know how much he was paid. Bayonetta? Come on, that's definitely overvaluing yourself and then some.

[xmirrors]

Seems like silly drama to me. I don't know how much she was paid for her previous work but apparently that's $4k per session. 4 hour sessions, 20 hours overall. Clearly an unlivable wage.

With that said, I don't have all of the variables to make a strong, informed opinion so I can't be arsed to care at all about this. What does she typically make? What did she make for her previous Bayonetta work? What is the industry standard?

[Zenfoldor]

If your name itself isn't a draw that will bring people into a game(or the lack of that name would prevent people from buying), imo you shouldn't get residuals. You have to earn those residuals. Meaning you bring in more money to the project than you receive. Organically.

Just doing a good job isn't residual-worthy imo, you should actually have to bring in new/returning players vs the project would with a similar competing voice actor without the star power. Unfortunately, being residual-worthy is a lot more difficult when you do not have broad name recognition.

Residuals aside, the basic compensation should be commensurate with the work performed. I honestly do not even understand any other argument, I don't get it.

When an actor is replaced on a project because a company refused to pay residuals, the punishment(or reward) for the company should come organically from customers who make a buying decision based off the company's decision to not negotiate and rehire that actor. If the backlash isn't organic, did the company make the wrong decision in the first place?

[Tech614]

If your name itself isn't a draw that will bring people into a game(or the lack of that name would prevent people from buying), imo you shouldn't get residuals. You have to earn those residuals. Meaning you bring in more money to the project than you receive. Organically.

Just doing a good job isn't residual-worthy imo, you should actually have to bring in new/returning players vs the project would with a similar competing voice actor without the star power. Unfortunately, being residual-worthy is a lot more difficult when you do not have broad name recognition.

Residuals aside, the basic compensation should be commensurate with the work performed. I honestly do not even understand any other argument, I don't get it.

When an actor is replaced on a project because a company refused to pay residuals, the punishment(or reward) for the company should come organically from customers who make a buying decision based off the company's decision to not negotiate and rehire that actor. If the backlash isn't organic, did the company make the wrong decision in the first place?

I mean VAs asking for a very small % residuals for main roles isn't too much to ask for(and the union should start fighting for this like they do for on screen actors) but asking for them on top of an extremely large lump sum payment for a niche franchise is beyond out of touch.

If she was taking union minimum and asked for residuals that would be one thing. They offered her 3-4x above union minimum, she wanted 20x union minimum AND residuals. There is fighting for your worth and then there is vastly overvaluing yourself...

Then its one thing to overvalue yourself, but then on top of it to try and discredit the developers of the game, the new VA, outright lie with bs figures like "Bayonetta has earned $450 million before merchandising". Talk about going in way too hot and coming out the other side looking like the biggest idiot in the room.

[everydaygamer]

Unless the game is built around the VA, giving residuals for a few days work seems silly.

Like the stars of a naughty dog game sure, if only because they are doing mocap along with voices.

[Tech614]

Unless the game is built around the VA, giving residuals for a few days work seems silly.

Like the stars of a naughty dog game sure, if only because they are doing mocap along with voices.

Residuals is a gamble anyways. No one but the best actors in hollywood are getting top tier pay days on top of residuals its either one or the other. You either take the larger lump sum or bank on the product making enough money that your residual check will earn you more over time.

Residuals aren't what people seem to think they are. If Troy Baker got residuals for TLOU which he didn't, he's not getting some absurd monthly check from that he would be lucky to get a few hundred bucks a month out of it after the front loading which would just be replacing the lump sum payment to begin with.

Residuals should be an option for VAs but they aren't gonna get a 100k lump sum payment AND residuals for 5 sessions of work, that's absolute insanity.

[Zenfoldor]

Residuals is a gamble anyways. No one but the best actors in hollywood are getting top tier pay days on top of residuals its either one or the other. You either take the larger lump sum or bank on the product making enough money that your residual check will earn you more over time.

Residuals aren't what people seem to think they are. If Troy Baker got residuals for TLOU which he didn't, he's not getting some absurd monthly check from that he would be lucky to get a few hundred bucks a month out of it after the front loading which would just be replacing the lump sum payment to begin with.

Residuals should be an option for VAs but they aren't gonna get a 100k lump sum payment AND residuals for 5 sessions of work, that's absolute insanity.

I think really, the entire cause of this whole outrage, is the broad and unbelievably childish belief that anyone who ever existed in any form of entertainment(even youtube) is automatically at least a millionaire and makes money on the scale of NFL players at a whim without having to work hard or much.

We see so many celebrities who seem to be so fabulously wealthy(and many seemingly undeservedly so) that we can't imagine anyone we perceive as "an artist" doesn't command at least minor wealth. When we hear about real dollar figures, and they are inevitably much lower than we anticipated, we defend our preconceived notions instead of educating ourselves.

In this case, we had that combined with kneejerk reactions that came in before the whole situation had presented itself. Many also felt the need to defend those initial reactions, at all costs. If we all could occasionally admit that we might have been wrong, even anonymously, I think this world would be a better place.

[Rennadrel]

Seems like silly drama to me. I don't know how much she was paid for her previous work but apparently that's $4k per session. 4 hour sessions, 20 hours overall. Clearly an unlivable wage.

With that said, I don't have all of the variables to make a strong, informed opinion so I can't be arsed to care at all about this. What does she typically make? What did she make for her previous Bayonetta work? What is the industry standard?

Well when you factor in taxation, it's not exactly a years income. That is why VA's tend to charge so much per session, because their working hours are not a standard 40 hour week for 50 weeks a year. If you do say 50 sessions a year at $750 an hour, that's not really a living wage. Big name VA's like Troy Baker and Jess Harnell probably do hundreds of hours of VA sessions a year because of all the projects they are involved in, but a lot of them also do conventions because the income is not steady or super lucrative for sustaining a decent living.

[Zenfoldor]

Well when you factor in taxation, it's not exactly a years income. That is why VA's tend to charge so much per session, because their working hours are not a standard 40 hour week for 50 weeks a year. If you do say 50 sessions a year at $750 an hour, that's not really a living wage. Big name VA's like Troy Baker and Jess Harnell probably do hundreds of hours of VA sessions a year because of all the projects they are involved in, but a lot of them also do conventions because the income is not steady or super lucrative for sustaining a decent living.

Great point about conventions. Many minor and major celebs do conventions after they are no longer famous for any other reason but the shows they were previously in. They will do them their whole lives. That is their living. I suspect that many of them make more money off of the conventions, than in the original projects that got them famous. I went to the Denver comicon and saw the Animaniacs perform live, and it was absolutely incredible!!!

[Darththeo]

Unless the game is built around the VA, giving residuals for a few days work seems silly.

Like the stars of a naughty dog game sure, if only because they are doing mocap along with voices.

Music artists get residuals for songs that some do in a "few days of work" and some actors can get residuals for movies that they did one day of filming on. so it isn't really "silly" for that reason.

The issue is that video games aren't really in the same vain. Sells for games drop significantly after a while, and they don't have the same level of streaming as music does. And unlike movies, you don't have home media release that come later.

[Zenfoldor]

Music artists get residuals for songs that some do in a "few days of work" and some actors can get residuals for movies that they did one day of filming on. so it isn't really "silly" for that reason.

The issue is that video games aren't really in the same vain. Sells for games drop significantly after a while, and they don't have the same level of streaming as music does. And unlike movies, you don't have home media release that come later.

The amount of work means very little, I agree, but I think you are oversimplifying the second part. It isn't just that videogames don't stream as much(I suspect they might) but rather with music, the voice/writing is the whole thing, with tv/movies, the actor/writing is the whole thing. In videogames, the voice actor is only a minor part of the production and often could be changed out with similar voice actors to no consequence. The same is not true in music, TV, movies, or even literature.

In Elden Ring the VA for the bosses is great, but if you changed one of the bosses VA out to a bad one, I don't think it would have affected the games sales that much. VA in Elden Ring, like Bayonetta, is a small piece of the overall puzzle. The main actor in Doctor Who on the otherhand, is make or break for the series.

Like, if they gave Link a new voice actor suddenly, should that VA have power over Link/Zelda now?

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Also, I don't think this will hurt Bayonetta 3 sales, I think it will help them. Awareness of Bayonetta 3 and attention has turned to a niche game. If it's good, I think this helps at this point, more than hurts.

[Darththeo]

The amount of work means very little, I agree, but I think you are oversimplifying the second part. It isn't just that videogames don't stream as much(I suspect they might) but rather with music, the voice/writing is the whole thing, with tv/movies, the actor/writing is the whole thing. In videogames, the voice actor is only a minor part of the production and often could be changed out with similar voice actors to no consequence. The same is not true in music, TV, movies, or even literature.

In Elden Ring the VA for the bosses is great, but if you changed one of the bosses VA out to a bad one, I don't think it would have affected the games sales that much. VA in Elden Ring, like Bayonetta, is a small piece of the overall puzzle. The main actor in Doctor Who on the otherhand, is make or break for the series.

Like, if they gave Link a new voice actor suddenly, should that VA have power over Link/Zelda now?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, I don't think this will hurt Bayonetta 3 sales, I think it will help them. Awareness of Bayonetta 3 and attention has turned to a niche game. If it's good, I think this helps at this point, more than hurts.

It has to do with how residuals are determined. It is based on long term sales/leasing.

And you really picked Doctor Who and Link for your examples? Also, I would say you are vastly understating what a voice actor can do. Look at Avatar the Last Airbender, Mako's Iroh vs the needed replacement to him. There is a clear drop off in quality. Mark Hamill's Joker from BtAS and the Arkham games, Hamill's version of the Joker is many people's default version. A voice actor can make or break a character just as much as any other actor. Look at the Ocean Dub of Dragonball Z vs Funimation's, there is a clear difference in the performances.

We can also go with video games. Compare Dinklage's work in Destiny to Nolan North's. The idea that the VA has little impact on a game or other media is just insane to me. Though, it is a commonly shared belief that you have, but I find it delusional.

Also, Bayonetta isn't really a niche game. It had about half the sales Bayonetta 2 of Devil May Cry 5, and Bayonetta 2 only launched on Nintendo consoles. It isn't a big seller, but it is a bit larger than niche.

[Zenfoldor]

It has to do with how residuals are determined. It is based on long term sales/leasing.

And you really picked Doctor Who and Link for your examples? Also, I would say you are vastly understating what a voice actor can do. Look at Avatar the Last Airbender, Mako's Iroh vs the needed replacement to him. There is a clear drop off in quality. Mark Hamill's Joker from BtAS and the Arkham games, Hamill's version of the Joker is many people's default version. A voice actor can make or break a character just as much as any other actor. Look at the Ocean Dub of Dragonball Z vs Funimation's, there is a clear difference in the performances.

We can also go with video games. Compare Dinklage's work in Destiny to Nolan North's. The idea that the VA has little impact on a game or other media is just insane to me. Though, it is a commonly shared belief that you have, but I find it delusional.

Also, Bayonetta isn't really a niche game. It had about half the sales Bayonetta 2 of Devil May Cry 5, and Bayonetta 2 only launched on Nintendo consoles. It isn't a big seller, but it is a bit larger than niche.

Those examples you mentioned where the VA makes or breaks the work, that is when residuals should be considered. Clearly some games where narrative is a focus is important or ip is important, VA is important.

That said, Destiny is not really one of them imo. Nor is Bayonetta 1, 2, or 3 imo(no matter how good the VA is). Just saying. Most games aren't those. Computer gamers especially, who listen to music while playing or discord. I still believe VA, while very important in some games, isn't near the level of importance on average as many other aspects of gaming. I believe in music or TV however, the actor or singer is often the primary attraction. I mean, it really depends on the game.

If you have a licensed game, it will help tremendously to have those original VA. It can make or break some games. Just not most.

In my defense, I've been mentioning Hamill and Kevin Conroy a lot related to this as examples of VA that can carry a game.

I guess it is better to say it like this:

Some things in music I put above voice quality:

Nothing

Some things in movies I put about Acting quality:

Narrative maybe....and nothing else

Some things in gaming I put above Voice Acting:

Gameplay
Narrative quality
Innovation(freshness)
Art Style/Graphics

then

Music/Sound design(and yes VA is here)

I get it, I really do, I'm not saying VA is completely unimportant, it just isn't the same thing as what an actor contributes to a movie. Each additional element a video game has diminishes the relative value of the other elements. Also games are very different, and while yes VA is important to some games, it doesn't even exist in others and doesn't matter at all.

[Darththeo]

Some things in music I put above voice quality:

Nothing

This just makes me feel you don't listen to music that lacks vocals. Vocals are big part of it, but hardly the most important thing.
A song with a good beat and okay vocals > great vocals on an okay beat for me.

Some things in movies I put about Acting quality:

Narrative maybe....and nothing else

Literally anything you can put above in a movie can also be put above for a game. But, even this, great actors can only do so much to make a movie better.
Even the greatest of actors can't really make crappy dialogue good.

Some things in gaming I put above Voice Acting:

Gameplay
Narrative quality
Innovation(freshness)
Art Style/Graphics

then

Music/Sound design(and yes VA is here)

Innovation above voice acting is weird to me.

I get it, I really do, I'm not saying VA is completely unimportant, it just isn't the same thing as what an actor contributes to a movie. Each additional element a video game has diminishes the relative value of the other elements. Also games are very different, and while yes VA is important to some games, it doesn't even exist in others and doesn't matter at all.

That's not really how it works. Something being more important doesn't reduce how important something else is. If you are claiming "narrative is important", there are times where a bad voice actor takes me out of the narrative because it doesn't fit either the character or story. Acting in general has a huge impact on the narrative. Take the first three Mass Effects, imagine instead of Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale as Shepard, you have Gilbert Gottfried and Ellen DeGeneres; do you think the story and scenes would or even could have the same impact? Or in Zelda that has only had limited Voice Acting, if Link's grunts and sounds were replaced by a screaming sheep?

A bad voice actor can make narrative worse. So, placing VA just in sound design doesn't make sense to me. Honestly, for me, sound design is part of narrative quality and impacts the innovation of game. Sound also for me is above graphics, but that just could be because I have been gaming since the NES days.

The issue here is your argument is essentially exactly why VA are undervalued, because people see your argument and come to the conclusion Voice Acting isn't important (yes, I know you personally don't think that; I am just pointing out your arguments you are using are the ones they use too.)

[Zenfoldor]

On the innovation above voice acting question, my reasoning is that I've found that lately playing games that feel fresh or unique seems to beat anything related to production values, which is why I mentioned it. If I feel like I've played a game before, it does bring my level of fun down a bit.

When I was younger I actually preferred production values to unique experiences most of the time, so I totally see the other side on that one.

The irony is that I'm a huge VA snob and actually do purchase or not purchase games and content by the VA, lol. I do want to agree to disagree though, because I still believe that VA is a smaller part of the overall pie in games than similar artists in other mediums. All due respect to excellent VA work that I have loved over the years, and I also 100% agree that the difficulty of that work is absolutely something that can easily be considered an art, famous or not.

[Tech614]

Innovation doesn't really exist in games anymore. I often see a dev perfect or better a style that has been done in the past and people call it "innovation", just no. It's like the people that think From Software invented checkpoint based action games.

This is also fine, it's a nearly 5 decade old industry now most ideas have been done before focus on making them good instead of trying to do something new for the sake of it.

[Zenfoldor]

True, innovation isn’t the right word, what I mean to describe is more of a unique feeling some games have. Some games just hit different. I feel like I should give some examples to be fair, because really everyone is different and a game that “feels” unique certainly won’t be universal. For my tastes some games that kinda feel “different” to me are Inscryption, Outer Wilds, Doki Doki, Braid, Obra Djinn, Papers Please, Disco Elysium, Baba is You, Neon White, and Spiritfarer.

I guess I value a game that is willing to take risks as well. Not that the games above were necessarily risky, but I do think that when a game feels overly familiar, I may occasionally(when I don’t love the gameplay or I’m burned out on a certain genre) get a little bored. Horizon forbidden west is an example of a game that has the greatest VA, and really everything else in the world, but they played it too close to the first game which was already pretty bland open world, I would sacrifice a little bit of VA quality in that game to have something that felt fresher or just different.