FFXIV Criticisms

[Pannonian]

They probably also just don't care a whole lot.
How important do you, for example, think double weaving or tripple weaving actually is?
Top-Gun Maverick players will obviously blame everything on stuff like that but in the grand scheme of things it's relatively irrelevant.
While I obviously believe the game would be better if there are ways to remove ping and what not, it doesn't really need to be in the game for the sake of the "console question".
Consoles are what they are. Mods will also always exist. There is nothing groundbreakingly important for this game that wouldn't allow you to play on your console just fine if you can manage the controls

And I don't think the stalking/voidlist thing is even related to the whole console/pc discussion in that regard, is it?

Ehm, beg to differ. Both healers in my static play on PS4 with controller. How they do it? I don't know, but they have no issue double weaving.

Even more so, a drg in our guild who plays way better than us (cleared dsr pretty quickly and last savage tier in week 1) - plays on controller.

So what i've heared it is pretty good, and it seems to work. No idea how as i will always prefer keyboard.

And true, they miss logs, but that changed when they started raiding with us, as we log and they can use analysis themselves. So it's not a big deal when it comes to raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

Double weaving is literally designed into nearly every class. It's expected that you can perform it without clipping. I don't know about triple weaving. The fix on Square-Enix's end would be relatively simple, too. So it's absurd they haven't done it.

The stalking thing is relevant insofar that you need a mod to remove them from the game, since GMs won't deal with it themselves.

Triple CAN work, but if it fails you clip the GCD. As you said, all classes and rotations are designed with double weave in mind so there is no advantage to a successful triple weave (though i think there was some shennanigans with blm in shb) and you loose if it fails - so most guides will discourage them.

[KrayZ33]

Triple CAN work, but if it fails you clip the GCD. As you said, all classes and rotations are designed with double weave in mind so there is no advantage to a successful triple weave (though i think there was some shennanigans with blm in shb) and you loose if it fails - so most guides will discourage them.

There is also no significant advantage to doubleweaving. It just doesn't mean there is no advantage, but it's not really relevant.
I don't even know where I use doubleweaving for SAM aside for Third Eye tbh.

Ehm, beg to differ. Both healers in my static play on PS4 with controller. How they do it? I don't know, but they have no issue double weaving.

Even more so, a drg in our guild who plays way better than us (cleared dsr pretty quickly and last savage tier in week 1) - plays on controller.

So what i've heared it is pretty good, and it seems to work. No idea how as i will always prefer keyboard.

And true, they miss logs, but that changed when they started raiding with us, as we log and they can use analysis themselves. So it's not a big deal when it comes to raiding.

doesn't that just mean you agree with me?

The stalking thing is relevant insofar that you need a mod to remove them from the game, since GMs won't deal with it themselves.

Yeah but honestly, isn't that just a ToS thing in the first place and the platform you play on doesn't matter.
Or not even ToS... it's something they could fix by making the blacklist hide your location for that player and stuff like that. Stalking was most likely a thing for that person because they always know where you are.

[Cattleya]

There is also no significant advantage to doubleweaving. It just doesn't mean there is no advantage, but it's not really relevant.
I don't even know where I use doubleweaving for SAM aside for Third Eye tbh.

Well, depends on the job and circumstances. I double weave a *lot* as DNC, particularly during burst windows, where you have about 15 seconds to blow through sometimes over 10 OGCDs. But also things like improv, which won't cost you a GCD or clip into one if you double-weave it.

Things like P5S' second burst window (a bit over 2 mins into the fight) even moreso because then i also have to weave arms' length into it and help my healers with curing waltz and/or improv if necessary.

I'm sure you could technically get by without doing these things, but i'd still say they're relevant when you're hitting enrages in savage and every extra OGCD you fit into the burst/pot window helps.

[Cthulhu 2020]

I'm never amazed at how people can never understand that if they're the ones always "receiving toxicity" from the general community and dungeon/party finder, it's very likely because they have aggressive and toxic energy in everything they say and do, and they're simply getting that energy back. The VERY FEW times I've encountered toxicity in this game, it was from highly forward and aggressive people with an ego the size of my state. They took other people's opinions incredibly poorly, and said others were being toxic when they received any pushback from said people who didn't want to be pushed around.

And the kicker was, they always claimed they were "just being honest". So many people who think they're "just being honest" when they're a forward, aggressive asshole are completely oblivious of their own toxicity because it's become so normal for them.

I've been playing since ARR, and I can count on a single hand all of the times I've had toxic encounters with people, and it's always been someone who's overly aggressive about their opinion and has an overinflated sense of self and ego.






Here's something people who think "the whole community" is toxic: Have you ever considered that maybe you're the toxic one, and the energy that you're receiving from "everyone else" is just your own energy being returned at you? Food for thought. Not that I expect anyone with that kind of attitude to self reflect enough for it to matter.

It's like those people who complain that everyone around them is a drama queen. Those people tend to be the primary source of the drama, even if others take part in it, most normal people are able to avoid being embroiled in drama constantly.

Just like how basically everyone manages to somehow avoid toxic interactions in FFXIV, except for a small handful of people who claim toxicity is everywhere. You get the energy you give.

[Grinning Serpent]

There is also no significant advantage to doubleweaving. It just doesn't mean there is no advantage, but it's not really relevant.
I don't even know where I use doubleweaving for SAM aside for Third Eye tbh.

You are mathematically wrong with this. *Some* classes don't need to double weave, but many do. And good luck getting good performance out of tanks (except WAR, who has like 3 buttons and has all of the brainpower removed from the class so you get extra time to go lick those windows) if you can't double weave without clipping, because there are going to be plenty of times where you need to use role actions while still maintaining DPS.

Yeah but honestly, isn't that just a ToS thing in the first place and the platform you play on doesn't matter.
Or not even ToS... it's something they could fix by making the blacklist hide your location for that player and stuff like that. Stalking was most likely a thing for that person because they always know where you are.

It's theoretically a ToS violation but GMs don't hardly touch it because I guess it's hard for them to *prove* the offending character was actively stalking the other one? And yeah the social systems in XIV are fucking *HORRIBLE.* What kind of garbage, demented fucking friends system requires consent to activate but then allows the other person to see your information if you've decided to stop being friends with them? I guess it's just a JP dev thing - are JP players just that much more conscientious than EU and NA players? How does this concept not get brought up during development, if it's just not really a "thing" that they have to deal with over there?

[Pannonian]

You are mathematically wrong with this. *Some* classes don't need to double weave, but many do. And good luck getting good performance out of tanks (except WAR, who has like 3 buttons and has all of the brainpower removed from the class so you get extra time to go lick those windows) if you can't double weave without clipping, because there are going to be plenty of times where you need to use role actions while still maintaining DPS.



It's theoretically a ToS violation but GMs don't hardly touch it because I guess it's hard for them to *prove* the offending character was actively stalking the other one? And yeah the social systems in XIV are fucking *HORRIBLE.* What kind of garbage, demented fucking friends system requires consent to activate but then allows the other person to see your information if you've decided to stop being friends with them? I guess it's just a JP dev thing - are JP players just that much more conscientious than EU and NA players? How does this concept not get brought up during development, if it's just not really a "thing" that they have to deal with over there?

@Double Weave: plenty of classes have them in their optimal rotation. Both jobs i played a lot in raids: MCH and RPR both have double weaves in their opener. On top of that, both have a burst where their gcd is halfed. Especially MCH is one of the jobs where people often tell you cannot play in a decent manner if you connection is too bad. Burst for MCH is similar to DNC -> press all buttons at once.

The stalking thing seems to be one weird japanese culture thing. They are not moving an inch. Even worse than the friendship: Marriage. A friend of ours married another player for both of them to receive the mounts/glams - happens hundred times per week. Well, turns out that guy started to stalk her as he interpreted more in the in game marriage. Now if you dont know, if you're married in FFXIV you get a ring letting you teleport right to your partner.

Of course there is an option to divorce. This removes the ring from your inventory. Though the ring of your (ex)partner stays in their inventory. So, when she divorced him, he still had the best tool to stalk her -> curtesy from SE. But they don't seem to think that's a problem...

[zealo]

@Double Weave: plenty of classes have them in their optimal rotation. Both jobs i played a lot in raids: MCH and RPR both have double weaves in their opener. On top of that, both have a burst where their gcd is halfed. Especially MCH is one of the jobs where people often tell you cannot play in a decent manner if you connection is too bad. Burst for MCH is similar to DNC -> press all buttons at once.

The stalking thing seems to be one weird japanese culture thing. They are not moving an inch. Even worse than the friendship: Marriage. A friend of ours married another player for both of them to receive the mounts/glams - happens hundred times per week. Well, turns out that guy started to stalk her as he interpreted more in the in game marriage. Now if you dont know, if you're married in FFXIV you get a ring letting you teleport right to your partner.

Of course there is an option to divorce. This removes the ring from your inventory. Though the ring of your (ex)partner stays in their inventory. So, when she divorced him, he still had the best tool to stalk her -> curtesy from SE. But they don't seem to think that's a problem...

As far as I'm aware the other player can't actually use that ring to teleport to you even with it being in their inventory if you've put them on your blacklist too, but this isn't explained anywhere near as clearly as it really should be.

[Soikona]

Well, I can see your point. Certain people on FFXIV enjoy the whole... 'Posing' with mods and it's really prevalent on some servers (Balmung)
I have seen however lots of people paying for porn drawings or even animations with their characters on it, specially for wow

The difference, I think, is that in FF people share it directly from the game mods while the wow stuff I've seen is more external

Wait, what? This is a side of WoW I wish I never had heard of!

But for FF side, it seems be more the “norm” than the exception for WoW, at least from my experience on EU realms.

[Maljinwo]

Wait, what? This is a side of WoW I wish I never had heard of!

But for FF side, it seems be more the “norm” than the exception for WoW, at least from my experience on EU realms.

I believe that's the difference I referred to.
Both communities have a highly... 'Active' adult community

WoW's keeps it on twitter or whatever
FFXIV's does whatever in game

[KrayZ33]

You are mathematically wrong with this. *Some* classes don't need to double weave, but many do. And good luck getting good performance out of tanks (except WAR, who has like 3 buttons and has all of the brainpower removed from the class so you get extra time to go lick those windows) if you can't double weave without clipping, because there are going to be plenty of times where you need to use role actions while still maintaining DPS.

To be mathematically wrong we'd first have to establish what kind of performance tanking is acceptable and what isn't.
And then you'd have to actually know the difference between single weave and double weave, which you don't even know, I'm sure of that, because hardly anyone thinks about that.
I'd estimate it at 5% at most on average, but I'm not sure of that either. Just seems to me that getting oGCDs outside of your DPS window won't kill your DPS completely considering these windows are just a fraction of the total boss fight in the first place and you are getting in most of it even without doubleweaving...
Not to mention that you can just clip a GCD if it's really important in the first place, so wtf.
Maybe EU servers are just "that" good or something and NA has a horrible time, so I can't properly relate.

So your raid is probably not even losing 5% of damage. This tier had a tougher DPS check, so my static would probably get in trouble as early as in P7S, but it's not like we are playing well anyway.
My static is losing out on like 6k DPS from healers alone compared to a group with 50 percentile healers.
I don't even know if raids with good DPS healers would even notice something. At most they'd have to run another weak to gear up or something.

Honestly, I don't see this being much of a deal for the average savage gamer.
Any theoretical scenarios where it would matter to have "8 PC players for double weaving" in this game just doesn't exist in real life.

I guess it's just a JP dev thing - are JP players just that much more conscientious than EU and NA players? How does this concept not get brought up during development, if it's just not really a "thing" that they have to deal with over there?

Yes, they are the weirdest kind of beings. It's a completely different world over there.

[Pannonian]

To be mathematically wrong we'd first have to establish what kind of performance tanking is acceptable and what isn't.
And then you'd have to actually know the difference between single weave and double weave, which you don't even know, I'm sure of that, because hardly anyone thinks about that.
I'd estimate it at 5% at most on average, but I'm not sure of that either. Just seems to me that getting oGCDs outside of your DPS window won't kill your DPS completely considering these windows are just a fraction of the total boss fight in the first place and you are getting in most of it even without doubleweaving...
Not to mention that you can just clip a GCD if it's really important in the first place, so wtf.
Maybe EU servers are just "that" good or something and NA has a horrible time, so I can't properly relate.

So your raid is probably not even losing 5% of damage. This tier had a tougher DPS check, so my static would probably get in trouble as early as in P7S, but it's not like we are playing well anyway.
My static is losing out on like 6k DPS from healers alone compared to a group with 50 percentile healers.
I don't even know if raids with good DPS healers would even notice something. At most they'd have to run another weak to gear up or something.

Honestly, I don't see this being much of a deal for the average savage gamer.
Any theoretical scenarios where it would matter to have "8 PC players for double weaving" in this game just doesn't exist in real life.




Yes, they are the weirdest kind of beings. It's a completely different world over there.

Don't get this wrong, but it seems you don't really know a lot about how jobs and their dps works in FFXIV. 2 minute buff windows exist. Getting your ogcd into the buff window is important.

After wiping to Agditis at 5,4 and 3 percents - the 5% MATTER. It is important to play your burst and your double weave correctly. And again, not everyone is a SAM. A DNC without double weave is way worse.

Also if you're just progressing P7S right now, forget any log precentile - you're logging "against" people that have 8 weeks of P7S and P8S loot (ff logs has no ilvl brackets!) - so the values are skewed anyway.

[KrayZ33]

Don't get this wrong, but it seems you don't really know a lot about how jobs and their dps works in FFXIV. 2 minute buff windows exist. Getting your ogcd into the buff window is important.

After wiping to Agditis at 5,4 and 3 percents - the 5% MATTER. It is important to play your burst and your double weave correctly. And again, not everyone is a SAM. A DNC without double weave is way worse.

Also if you're just progressing P7S right now, forget any log precentile - you're logging "against" people that have 8 weeks of P7S and P8S loot (ff logs has no ilvl brackets!) - so the values are skewed anyway.

That's a whole lot of saying nothing though. HOW important is it? What's the difference we are looking at.
What's the difference between pooling feathers or not.
I just don't think it's significant enough, it's not like you clip every 10th GCD and thus lose out 10% of all your GCDs if you clip or whatever.
What % of your overall damage do feathers do?
10%? If you miss out on 50% from that in your DPS window and do them "later", how much overall damage lost in % is that going to be?
That's the point im coming from.

It's not like I'm saying it's just as good?

Also if you're just progressing P7S right now, forget any log precentile - you're logging "against" people that have 8 weeks of P7S and P8S loot (ff logs has no ilvl brackets!) - so the values are skewed anyway.

doesn't matter, our healers are 10-20% parsers at the very best because because they are clickers, overheal and stop doing things when mechanics happen most of the time.
I'd say they have around 33-40% less *GCDs* than top parsers.
It's not about grey/green/blue parsing or whatever. They simply don't deal more than 2 to 2,5k DPS, ever.

[Pannonian]

That's a whole lot of saying nothing though. HOW important is it? What's the difference we are looking at.
What's the difference between pooling feathers or not.
I just don't think it's significant enough, it's not like you clip every 10th GCD and thus lose out 10% of all your GCDs if you clip or whatever.
What % of your overall damage do feathers do?
10%? If you miss out on 50% from that in your DPS window and do them "later", how much overall damage lost in % is that going to be?
That's the point im coming from.

It's not like I'm saying it's just as good?



doesn't matter, our healers are 10-20% parsers at the very best because because they are clickers, overheal and stop doing things when mechanics happen most of the time.
I'd say they have around 33-40% less *GCDs* than top parsers.
It's not about grey/green/blue parsing or whatever. They simply don't deal more than 2 to 2,5k DPS, ever.

No way you kill the boss with a 60% uptime on healers - i'd love to see that log, because i cannot imagine killing any boss (or at least P7S or P8S) with 60% uptime.

Page 15 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...5SKSIWJeU/edit - i'd rather trust people that calculate all this stuff, than your gut feeling. Is it necessary to play the optimal rotation? No of course not, but that is a stupid argument, because that is also true for the thunder3-mage in normal raids - sure it works (somehow), but its neither designed in that way not helping your group.

[eschatological]

There are definitely double weaves in almost every melee class I can think of, because the nature of melee is instant cast weapon attacks. Maybe casters don't need to weave as much, but they're playing a different game in terms of planned movement.

[Pannonian]

There are definitely double weaves in almost every melee class I can think of, because the nature of melee is instant cast weapon attacks. Maybe casters don't need to weave as much, but they're playing a different game in terms of planned movement.

For Casters it may be even worse, because of casts you have way less chances to weave, so you need all of them. You should hear our blm curse when he has lags and cannot fit his pot, the next window is ages...

[KrayZ33]

Page 15 - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...5SKSIWJeU/edit - i'd rather trust people that calculate all this stuff, than your gut feeling. Is it necessary to play the optimal rotation? No of course not, but that is a stupid argument, because that is also true for the thunder3-mage in normal raids - sure it works (somehow), but its neither designed in that way not helping your group.

I don't understand the purpose of linking the guide? Does it mention how much DPS you lose and how big the % difference is?
It should be obvious that it's recommended to double weave and that's obviously what it's going to suggest, isn't it? And it's not a stupid argument... If you can clear the game relatively easy without doing it, you can't say you need it to be "competitive" in Savage. Maybe I misunderstood and we are talking about parsing and not just clearing it with enough room to spare?

No way you kill the boss with a 60% uptime on healers - i'd love to see that log, because i cannot imagine killing any boss (or at least P7S or P8S) with 60% uptime.

Some pog-champ parsing healer in the top 200 or whatever does like 190 Boils in a 9:30 fight against that boss.
Our healer does 110 in 11:00 on our first kill and we had 3 deaths (although all of them were healers and tanks). How many does your healer do? This wouldn't be any different if the healer hadn't died btw. I could look at P1S or P5S or P4S it just doesn't matter they are always dedicating way more to healing than necessary and lose out on GCDs overall (and not just a bit)
The same thing with the other one.
That's not coming from having to heal more due to gear difference.

[Pannonian]

I don't understand the purpose of linking the guide? Does it mention how much DPS you lose and how big the % difference is?
It should be obvious that it's recommended to double weave and that's obviously what it's going to suggest, isn't it? And it's not a stupid argument... If you can clear the game relatively easy without doing it, you can't say you need it to be "competitive" in Savage. Maybe I misunderstood and we are talking about parsing and not just clearing it with enough room to spare?




Some pog-champ parsing healer in the top 200 or whatever does like 190 Boils in a 9:30 fight against that boss.
Our healer does 110 in 11:00 on our first kill. How many does your healer do?
The same thing with the other one.
That's not coming from having to heal more due to gear difference.

Do they miss 40% of their gcds (aka, also heals) or do they cast 50% less damage spells? Alright, that's fine, but please use correct language next time - heals can also be gcds - so if you claim they miss 40% gcds, then I#d assume their uptime is horrible.

And sure, you can kill stuff - thunder 3 mage also works in aglaia, but its neither optimal nor intended.


Edit: To clarify why i linked it - because they talk to lenghts about how important it is - and if you have ever compared a log of a dnc packing their feathers into the burst, you would know why it may be not so important for YOUR sam, but maybe for other jobs it is.

I've taken the timeline of the damage of our agdistis first kill:



overall dps: 58k

The extrema are way above that. The burst is 81k - all the buffs running, of course you want to dump all your ogcds into it. They're still at 80k way into the fight, only at harvests they drop to around 70k.

When we killed it - the enrage cast was nearly finished.

Without double weaving we would be a long way off...

Edit2: Fan Dances are about 15% of the dnc damage, so i'd argue it is important. Even moreso as it is not only feathers, but also get-all-your-proccs (i forgot the name) which is also woven.

[KrayZ33]

Do they miss 40% of their gcds (aka, also heals) or do they cast 50% less damage spells? Alright, that's fine, but please use correct language next time - heals can also be gcds - so if you claim they miss 40% gcds, then I#d assume their uptime is horrible.

Well, I just found out that there is a cast column that neatly puts both heals and damage casts together for me to count. (or rather, it counted it for me)
Top 200 guy in ~9:30 minutes = 341 cast
Our healer in ~11:00 = 286.

90 seconds difference = 36 GCDs (not casts, but I'll just pretend there are no oGCD so basically, I'm being "nice" to our healer here - obviously "Embrace" is not included)
So ~340 vs ~250, our healer missed 90 casts one way or another.
That's the best I could think of matching them up against? Do you have another idea?
33-40% missing seems to be plausible then.

But to re-iterate - you haven't cleared savage, but claim that double weaving is unnecessary?

What? Yeah, I didn't clear this one yet? "We" usually need 2 weeks (~4h ) per boss to just get the movement done, with the last boss needing double, or way longer, due to it having 2 phases and being more difficult in general. We don't have problems with enrage though unless people are dying? And we didn't raid for the past 3 weeks so I'd say we are "on time".
I cleared all of ShB and the P1S-4S though? Way before Echo yada yada. I already mentioned that this tier is more DPS heavy than any other before, which of course is why they nerfed it - so it was obviously never intended to be like that.

I mean, even with our 1 and 2 Percentile healers in that fight, we have more than 1k DPS more overall DPS than you guys. I think there is a lot of stuff you have to look at first, before you think about perfectly doubleweaving everything. In fact I don't even know how you killed him with just 58k? It surely has to be way closer to 59k considering we saw the enrage cast as well? Or FFlogs is actually *that* useless.
It's not like I'm, or the other DPS for that matter, are parsing exceptionally good. Heck. Hell no we don't. We had like 7 deaths in our P6S kill this week because after not raiding for several weeks, no one knew how to play their classes anymore, let alone how the boss worked. Lol.
There is no way my group will ever be able to get a good run on any boss, I'm not above that.

That obviously doesn't mean no one is double weaving in my raid, of course.

Edit2: Fan Dances are about 15% of the dnc damage, so i'd argue it is important. Even moreso as it is not only feathers, but also get-all-your-proccs (i forgot the name) which is also woven.

Is it? Even Rank 1 doesn't reach 15%.
I'd say it's closer to 12% if we want to be more precise... but again, you aren't losing 15% by not double weaving. The question is how much you lose, and I'd say it's probably even less than 5%.

[Grinning Serpent]

Multiple classes literally cannot function as designed without double weaving.

[KrayZ33]

Yeah, sure - whatever. I don't care anymore...