The Emerald Dream: an Expansion or a Patch?

[Ielenia]

I don't remember seeing percentages.

I did not need to use percentages to answer that question.

You're still stuck on biomes... jeez.

Because each zone in an expansion is at least a separate, different biome from the rest. Take Zandalar for example: Zuldazar is a tropical forest, Nazmir is a marsh, and Vol'dun is a desert. Or Draenor: Shadowmoon Valley is a valley in perpetual night, Gor'grond is a dense jungle with an arid region at the north, Talador is a forest, Nagrand is plains, and Frostfire is a frozen wasteland. But if the Emerald Dream is used as the location for an expansion? Zone 1: lush green forest. Zone 2: lush green forest. Zone 3: lush green forest. Zone 4: lush green forest. Zone 5: lush green forest. And so on and so forth.

No. That's just throwing stuff around that has no meaning. You need some kind of context.

I did the exact same thing you did. What is your 'context'? "Emerald Dream is totally going to be an expansion theme!" So I used the same context, "Deepholm is totally going to be an expansion theme!" to illustrate how your connections are flimsy and nonsensical.

With you, i do. Because you can't distinguish between different kinds of green.

Says the guy who claims "you need a specific shade of green" while at the same time using every single shade of green and blue in existence and claiming it's "emerald". The pictures you posted even betray you, because we can clearly see that the glow in the sea is way more blue than green. And yet it's a "reference to the Emerald Dream"?

We've explored a planet-sized zone?

I already addressed that question. Please pay attention to not keep asking questions that were already answered. Rewording that question doesn't warrant a second answer if it's just going to be the same answer.

Your vision might be tricked by the fact that it is occuring in water. Therefore, you see shades of light blue.

That color is not "emerald" like you claimed it was:

3) not just any green, Emerald green.

For example, the Shadowlands still follow that original description of land of the dead and shadowy realm of souls with Maldraxxus and the Maw. But, there are still more zones than just what we had expected beforehand.

Show me at least five varied and distinct biomes while still keeping true to the "verdant lush forests". Go.

The fact that you can't answer it shows a lot.

It shows that I'm honest. Especially since I'm not the one claiming "blue = emerald green".

Not just moss. Titanic watcher covered in moss. You haven't noticed these statues lying around, have you?

Which is still meaningless. Just because those statues exist there doesn't mean the stone watchers, who have moss on them because they remained inert for several millennia, are a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Which is older lore.

Which is irrelevant, unless you can show where in the current lore that part is retconned, which doesn't exist.

If it wasn't on the cosmic scale, it wouldn't have appeared on the cosmic chart. *facepalm*

Why shouldn't it?

No. Conceptual goldmine.

Fine. This so-called "conceptual gold mine" has been basically stripped of almost all "conceptual gold" thanks to all the times we visited it, quested there, raided there, and saw it in the books.

Better?

Much like the Dream. You only saw a small part of it.

It's not the same, though. We've been to Argus once, while we've been to the Emerald dream multiple times.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HKcYAHg8g1o/maxresdefault.jpg

Cooooooooool... an image with no context or link to an article... yaaaaaaaaay.....

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Eme...mcreatures.JPG

And we can find elementals in zones such as Badlands, but that doesn't make those zones "magical elemental zones".

[Ersula]

Anyone else think they should stop using new zone ideas for major tier content? Zones like Argus, Nazjatar, Korthia and inevitably Zareth Mortis become ghost towns, compared to the much livelier & beloved zones like Suramar & Hyjal

[Mecheon]

If you cannot identify this color, then i can only advise you to go and see an eye doctor.

Y'know, while I could bring up the fact that throughout history, people have considered green and blue to be the same colour (See ancient writings saying the sky is the same colour as copper, or Japan not really having a distinct word for green for a while), that's. that's demon stuff. We've seen demon stuff portrayed that way for ages. That's probably the Well of Eternity after it went boom as per the text in the trailer, in fact. She's talking about the world being sundered, we know that happened with the whole Well, its that felstorm that was overhead (Plus, y'know, the lightning which is very much established as a demon thing)

[username993720]

I did not need to use percentages to answer that question.

"Enough" is not an indication.

Because each zone in an expansion is at least a separate, different biome from the rest. Take Zandalar for example: Zuldazar is a tropical forest, Nazmir is a marsh, and Vol'dun is a desert. Or Draenor: Shadowmoon Valley is a valley in perpetual night, Gor'grond is a dense jungle with an arid region at the north, Talador is a forest, Nagrand is plains, and Frostfire is a frozen wasteland. But if the Emerald Dream is used as the location for an expansion? Zone 1: lush green forest. Zone 2: lush green forest. Zone 3: lush green forest. Zone 4: lush green forest. Zone 5: lush green forest. And so on and so forth.

No...
An Emerald Dream continent could be comprised of a Nightmare zone; A Thros, the Blighted Lands zone; a magical, physics-defying zone; a Timeless Isle-like zone for fun; an aphrodisiac zone; and a lush Jungle like you'd expect with some Islands around.

Another option would be different biomes, as the Plane of Life would obviously show various kinds of fauna and flora that developed on Azeroth and not just those that developed in foresty areas. Think about a David Attenborough kind of a show, where each episode shows a different biome.

I did the exact same thing you did. What is your 'context'? "Emerald Dream is totally going to be an expansion theme!" So I used the same context, "Deepholm is totally going to be an expansion theme!" to illustrate how your connections are flimsy and nonsensical.

You need a good reasoning and a relevant theme.

Says the guy who claims "you need a specific shade of green" while at the same time using every single shade of green and blue in existence and claiming it's "emerald". The pictures you posted even betray you, because we can clearly see that the glow in the sea is way more blue than green. And yet it's a "reference to the Emerald Dream"?

It's a mix because of the water. You see light blue due to the waves. Look hard enough and you'll see patches of Emerald.

I already addressed that question. Please pay attention to not keep asking questions that were already answered. Rewording that question doesn't warrant a second answer if it's just going to be the same answer.

"Enough" is not a measure of size.
"Everything is the same" isn't a compelling argument as well.

That color is not "emerald" like you claimed it was:

I can't do anything about your vision.

Show me at least five varied and distinct biomes while still keeping true to the "verdant lush forests". Go.

Tundra, your verdant lush forest, grassland, desert, a plateu, jungle, savanna, woodland, marsh, etc, etc...

It shows that I'm honest. Especially since I'm not the one claiming "blue = emerald green".

It shows you only have half of the picture.

Which is still meaningless. Just because those statues exist there doesn't mean the stone watchers, who have moss on them because they remained inert for several millennia, are a reference to the Emerald Dream.

If you'd like to believe so.

Which is irrelevant, unless you can show where in the current lore that part is retconned, which doesn't exist.

I just did. With the new titan lore. You really aren't expecting it to change with all that is going around?

Why shouldn't it?

A) you said it is a Titanic constructed dimension. Therefore, it should appear on the Order cosmic force.
2) you said it is a patch-worth of a zone. It shouldn't exist on the cosmic scale when the Shadowlands were an expansion-worth of content.

Fine. This so-called "conceptual gold mine" has been basically stripped of almost all "conceptual gold" thanks to all the times we visited it, quested there, raided there, and saw it in the books.

Better?

It wasn't. Because you've mostly seen a monotonous and generic depiction of the place. Goldmine means it can be more.

It's not the same, though. We've been to Argus once, while we've been to the Emerald dream multiple times.

Has anything changed between these times? It's like visiting the same patch of Argus.

Cooooooooool... an image with no context or link to an article... yaaaaaaaaay.....

Emerald Dream test zone. Meaning, they tried, but clearly didn't have the time or resources to finish it.

And we can find elementals in zones such as Badlands, but that doesn't make those zones "magical elemental zones".

Is Ardenweald a fey zone?
Then, you can expect the same with the Emerald Dream.

Y'know, while I could bring up the fact that throughout history, people have considered green and blue to be the same colour (See ancient writings saying the sky is the same colour as copper, or Japan not really having a distinct word for green for a while), that's. that's demon stuff. We've seen demon stuff portrayed that way for ages. That's probably the Well of Eternity after it went boom as per the text in the trailer, in fact. She's talking about the world being sundered, we know that happened with the whole Well, its that felstorm that was overhead (Plus, y'know, the lightning which is very much established as a demon thing)

I know what it is.
Look at the artistic choice, though. It isn't the same color as in the Legion cinematic (Fel-colored green).

[Ielenia]

"Enough" is not an indication.

It is, though. It's not an exact measure, but it is enough of a measure. Just like the example I gave from the Lord of the Rings story: you can't quantify in an exact percentage how much about Frodo we know, but what we know is enough to get an accurate idea of his personality. You can't quantify in an exact percentage how much about Mordor we know, but what we know is enough to get an accurate idea how the rest of that location looks like.

An Emerald Dream continent could be comprised of a Nightmare zone; A Thros, the Blighted Lands zone; a magical, physics-defying zone; a Timeless Isle-like zone for fun; an aphrodisiac zone; and a lush Jungle like you'd expect with some Islands around.

So, Emerald Nightmare; Emerald Nightmare; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream?

Another option would be different biomes, as the Plane of Life

The Emerald Dream is not the plane of life. Unless you want to claim that the plane of life is super-teensy-tiny because the Emerald Dream exists for Azeroth, and Azeroth only.

You need a good reasoning and a relevant theme.

And what is your "reasoning" and "theme" other than "I want an Emerald Dream expansion"?

It's a mix because of the water. You see light blue due to the waves. Look hard enough and you'll see patches of Emerald.

So because a small handful of pixels just happen to briefly get a kinda-maybe-sorta-if-you-squint-and-look-at-it-under-the-right-light emerald-ish color, that's a reference to the Emerald Dream?

Tundra, your verdant lush forest, grassland, desert, a plateu, jungle, savanna, woodland, marsh, etc, etc...

So... not the Emerald Dream, Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, and not the Emerald Dream. You got one. I asked for at least five.

It shows you only have half of the picture.

I have the whole picture, thank you very much. I just don't go creating nonsensical claims that go beyond conspiracy theory levels of logic.

If you'd like to believe so.

If you want to believe the DF cinematic points to a Deepholm expansion because of all the stone, stone beings and stone buildings, that's on you. Because that is the kind of logic you're bringing here with your """"""""""analysis"""""""""".

I just did. With the new titan lore. You really aren't expecting it to change with all that is going around?

It didn't retcon anything that we're discussing here. The text in that in-game in no way says that the Titans or their creations can't create anything at all.

A) you said it is a Titanic constructed dimension. Therefore, it should appear on the Order cosmic force.

Not really. By your logic, Tyr shouldn't be able to wield Light magic, since it's not part of the "Order cosmic force", and yet you do claim that he did wield Light magic, don't you?

2) you said it is a patch-worth of a zone. It shouldn't exist on the cosmic scale when the Shadowlands were an expansion-worth of content.

Why? The cosmic chart is just an artwork and in no way is representative of the actual size of the dimensions.

It wasn't. Because you've mostly seen a monotonous and generic depiction of the place.

Because that's all there is to it as far as the lore has shown us throughout the many years and books.

Has anything changed between these times? It's like visiting the same patch of Argus.

And the same would happen to the Emerald Dream: everywhere we go, we would be visiting "the same patch of the Emerald Dream".

Emerald Dream test zone. Meaning, they tried, but clearly didn't have the time or resources to finish it.

But that doesn't mean they didn't have the skills or technology. Resources and technology they definitely had, because otherwise we wouldn't have portals and instances in the game back in vanilla WoW.

[Mecheon]

Emerald Dream test zone. Meaning, they tried, but clearly didn't have the time or resources to finish it.

Oh hey, this is a subject I know way too much about

Okay, so what we know about the Emerald Dream is that it was planned as an early Thing, but that early it was sort of the Shadowlands in that you'd go there when you died. That obviously changed to becoming a ghost and the corpse runs we all know and love, and while we don't know the next one, we do know the four portals that have been there since Vanilla, where the world dragons spawn, were all intended as leading into the Dream. Wasn't time or resources, the Dream just got scrapped.

I know what it is.
Look at the artistic choice, though. It isn't the same color as in the Legion cinematic (Fel-colored green).

Fel lightning though. Dream-related green tends to have cloud particles that go to white and an overall softer design, the differing colour of green could be explained due to distance, the oncoming storm clouds, or it being an after-effect of the fel storm and not the proper storm.

[Le Conceptuel]

If you cannot identify this color, then i can only advise you to go and see an eye doctor.

Color perception actually varies from individual-to-individual. I read that color as teal.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, so what we know about the Emerald Dream is that it was planned as an early Thing, but that early it was sort of the Shadowlands in that you'd go there when you died. That obviously changed to becoming a ghost and the corpse runs we all know and love, and while we don't know the next one, we do know the four portals that have been there since Vanilla, where the world dragons spawn, were all intended as leading into the Dream. Wasn't time or resources, the Dream just got scrapped

Correct and researchpilled

- - - Updated - - -

Not really. By your logic, Tyr shouldn't be able to wield Light magic, since it's not part of the "Order cosmic force", and yet you do claim that he did wield Light magic, don't you?

In that connection, Eonar. As in the Titan of Life.

[username993720]

It is, though. It's not an exact measure, but it is enough of a measure. Just like the example I gave from the Lord of the Rings story: you can't quantify in an exact percentage how much about Frodo we know, but what we know is enough to get an accurate idea of his personality. You can't quantify in an exact percentage how much about Mordor we know, but what we know is enough to get an accurate idea how the rest of that location looks like.

Your idea of enough differs from mine.

So, Emerald Nightmare; Emerald Nightmare; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream; not Emerald Dream?

Shadowlands: Shadowlands, Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands.

The Emerald Dream is not the plane of life. Unless you want to claim that the plane of life is super-teensy-tiny because the Emerald Dream exists for Azeroth, and Azeroth only.

Azeroth is tiny now?

And what is your "reasoning" and "theme" other than "I want an Emerald Dream expansion"?

We know the Emerald Dream is relevant, we know Elementals are relevant, so are the titans, and so on and so on...

So because a small handful of pixels just happen to briefly get a kinda-maybe-sorta-if-you-squint-and-look-at-it-under-the-right-light emerald-ish color, that's a reference to the Emerald Dream?

Damn. You really have a bad eyesight if you need to make an effort to see it. But, basically, yes.

So... not the Emerald Dream, Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, not the Emerald Dream, and not the Emerald Dream. You got one. I asked for at least five.

What were you expecting? Everything that isn't a forest doesn't qualify in your eyes. That's a trick question.

The Emerald Dream, not as you know it, not as you would expect it, development of the concept, expanding on the zone, basically what every expansion does. Your expectations are too set in stone. How do you even handle new expansions innovating on lore zones?

I have the whole picture, thank you very much. I just don't go creating nonsensical claims that go beyond conspiracy theory levels of logic.

Then answer me. Why is it on the Life force and why is it a cosmic dimension?

If you want to believe the DF cinematic points to a Deepholm expansion because of all the stone, stone beings and stone buildings, that's on you. Because that is the kind of logic you're bringing here with your """"""""""analysis"""""""""".

There's nothing pointing to Deepholm. Again, it's not pointing to everything in a cinematic, but to specific stuff.

It didn't retcon anything that we're discussing here. The text in that in-game in no way says that the Titans or their creations can't create anything at all.

That's not the issue.
They didn't create what you think they did. The First ones did. They tell you clear and loud: "take credit for every work of wonder in the universe". This includes the Emerald Dream.

Not really. By your logic, Tyr shouldn't be able to wield Light magic, since it's not part of the "Order cosmic force", and yet you do claim that he did wield Light magic, don't you?

I do, because i know they delve into other magics. Once again, if it is attributed to the work of the Titans, why would it be on the Life force and not part of their plane? A dimension of Life would have a Pantheon of Life. They don't need another pantheon. That's like expecting Titans to be responsible for the Shadowlands, yet having it on the Death force. And no. Delving into a magic doesn't make you part of it. I.E. - the Dreadlords using different kinds of magic.

Why? The cosmic chart is just an artwork and in no way is representative of the actual size of the dimensions.

Why would it be less than the Shadowlands? It is the dimension of Life as much as the Shadowlands is the dimension of Death.

Because that's all there is to it as far as the lore has shown us throughout the many years and books.

Lore expands, develops, changes and retcons. Especially when it comes to new expansions.

And the same would happen to the Emerald Dream: everywhere we go, we would be visiting "the same patch of the Emerald Dream".

Only if it is a patch. An expansion obviously can't be same-y.

But that doesn't mean they didn't have the skills or technology. Resources and technology they definitely had, because otherwise we wouldn't have portals and instances in the game back in vanilla WoW.

I said resources and time. They had plans, but scrapped them. Same as with the Dragon Isles.

Oh hey, this is a subject I know way too much about

Okay, so what we know about the Emerald Dream is that it was planned as an early Thing, but that early it was sort of the Shadowlands in that you'd go there when you died. That obviously changed to becoming a ghost and the corpse runs we all know and love, and while we don't know the next one, we do know the four portals that have been there since Vanilla, where the world dragons spawn, were all intended as leading into the Dream. Wasn't time or resources, the Dream just got scrapped.

Yes. That's what i meant. They had to give up on Dragon Isles and i think even Outland back in the day to all be included in Vanilla.

Fel lightning though. Dream-related green tends to have cloud particles that go to white and an overall softer design, the differing colour of green could be explained due to distance, the oncoming storm clouds, or it being an after-effect of the fel storm and not the proper storm.

Unlikely. The devs know what they do. They'd be aware that it looks more Emerald than Fel in the cinematic. It is a deliberate choice, consistent with the theme of the trailer.

Color perception actually varies from individual-to-individual. I read that color as teal.

Heard of it.

These are all different kinds of pretty much the same green. Emerald, Turquoise, Teal, Jade.

[Ielenia]

Your idea of enough differs from mine.

Not surprising, considering you believe the blue light in the ocean is "emerald green", we also seem to have different definitions for the color "emerald".

Shadowlands: Shadowlands, Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands, not Shadowlands.

Not the same thing. I already addressed that, so I'm not repeating myself.

Azeroth is tiny now?

Compared to an entire plane of existence such as the Shadowlands? You bet it's tiny.

We know the Emerald Dream is relevant, we know Elementals are relevant, so are the titans, and so on and so on...

Congratulations, you just gave credence to my "the DF cinematic points at Deepholm" pseudo-theory.

Damn. You really have a bad eyesight if you need to make an effort to see it. But, basically, yes.

So you're admitting to dishonesty? Because when you claim that a felstorm and the blue glow of the sea are "emerald green therefore a reference to the Emerald Dream", you basically admit that you're not using the same kind of logic the real world does.

What were you expecting?

I delineated my question clearly enough.

Then answer me. Why is it on the Life force and why is it a cosmic dimension?

Is it a "cosmic dimension" to begin with? Because the Emerald Dream exists for Azeroth only.

There's nothing pointing to Deepholm.

Aside from all the rocks and stones, stone watchers and stone buildings? Again, this is the exact same kind of logic you're using to claim your connections to the Emerald Dream.

That's not the issue.
They didn't create what you think they did. The First ones did. They tell you clear and loud: "take credit for every work of wonder in the universe". This includes the Emerald Dream.

It doesn't mean they didn't create anything. Again: even mortals were capable of creating pocket dimensions, so why do you believe the titan keeper Freya would be unable to?

I do,

Then you're being inconsistent. You can't claim that they can wield magics not associated with their domain (order, therefore arcane) while at the same time claim that their creations can't belong to any domain other than their own.

It is the dimension of Life

The Emerald Dream is not the "dimension of life".

Lore expands, develops, changes and retcons. Especially when it comes to new expansions.

So you're openly admitting that you are not only a-okay, but also even eager to have the Emerald Dream changed into something it is not, just so you can have your "emerald dream expansion"?

Only if it is a patch. An expansion obviously can't be same-y.

Which is why people have been telling you that the Emerald Dream doesn't work as an expansion theme.

[Mecheon]

Yes. That's what i meant. They had to give up on Dragon Isles and i think even Outland back in the day to all be included in Vanilla.

Outland was going to be a levelling zone and just a one-area type thing, like Hellfire.

Unlikely. The devs know what they do. They'd be aware that it looks more Emerald than Fel in the cinematic. It is a deliberate choice, consistent with the theme of the trailer.

The thing is though, the difference between Fel and Emerald Dream stuff isn't just the particular colour of green. Yeah, fel tends towards a sharper, more yellow tone, but that's not consistent.

You have to look at the whole design of the thing and not just "This colour seems off"

Fel magic tends to have surrounding lightning, bright green, dark storm clouds that spiral to a central point. We saw it in Argus, we saw it in Well of Eternity, its a regular Warcraft thing that we know about, a deliberate callback,
Emerald Dream/Druid stuff tends to have soft particle effects, reminiscent of floating clouds, lighter clouds that fade to white, no lightning, and would be more reminiscent of pollen falling than what we've seen

Also frankly I think its a visual thing as it seems completely in line with the fel green in the Warlords of Draenor trailer, which does tie into that whole visual colour thing about the dark storm clouds thing being a Fel Thing

[Le Conceptuel]

Emerald, Turquoise, Teal, Jade.

I do not think most people perceive those middle two colors as similar to the former and latter colors. Those seem to be held by general consensus to be more of a green-going-on-blue, whereas Emerald is pretty solidly placed in the middle of the color spectrum. It's fairly difficult to conflate the two as similar. Although, as I said, color perception is somewhat subjective, there does exist a general understanding as to where most colors exist on the wavelength spectrum. and teal is around a transitory point, whereas emerald would be best placed around the middle of the "green" area.

[username993720]

Not surprising, considering you believe the blue light in the ocean is "emerald green", we also seem to have different definitions for the color "emerald".

Apparently. But, you are satisfied with 20% while i'm looking more for like 80%.

Not the same thing. I already addressed that, so I'm not repeating myself.

The same thing because we had previous description of the place.

Compared to an entire plane of existence such as the Shadowlands? You bet it's tiny.

What?
Shadowlands = 1 expansion worth of content.
Azeroth = 7 expansions worth of content.

Congratulations, you just gave credence to my "the DF cinematic points at Deepholm" pseudo-theory.

Elementals do not point to Deepholm. We've already been there. There are no mentions of the place or anything to expand upon.

So you're admitting to dishonesty? Because when you claim that a felstorm and the blue glow of the sea are "emerald green therefore a reference to the Emerald Dream", you basically admit that you're not using the same kind of logic the real world does.

Only if you were right. But, apparently, you don't see the same colors i do. Are you color blind by any chance?

I delineated my question clearly enough.

What? Were you expecting different kinds of forests? Is that what you were trying to achieve?

Is it a "cosmic dimension" to begin with? Because the Emerald Dream exists for Azeroth only.

It is because it's on the cosmic map.
You don't know if it encompasses Azeroth only. We expected Shadowlands to be Azeroth's afterlife only but that turned out to be wrong.

Aside from all the rocks and stones, stone watchers and stone buildings? Again, this is the exact same kind of logic you're using to claim your connections to the Emerald Dream.

Rocks and stones do not stick out in the cinematic. And, besides, we do know Elementals are a theme as well, so it's nothing new. You just don't know what to relate it to. Stone Watchers do not hint at anything Earth elemental related, but Titanic content.

It doesn't mean they didn't create anything. Again: even mortals were capable of creating pocket dimensions, so why do you believe the titan keeper Freya would be unable to?

How many times do i have to repeat myself? They are retconning the creations that were associated with the Titans to be instead the works of the First ones. Period. There's nothing to debate.

Then you're being inconsistent. You can't claim that they can wield magics not associated with their domain (order, therefore arcane) while at the same time claim that their creations can't belong to any domain other than their own.

Did you miss the Dreadlord example? Originally beings of Death, they turned into beings of Fel, Light, delved into the Void and might even infiltrated Life. Doesn't mean they can be representatives of the other forces of the universe.

The Emerald Dream is not the "dimension of life".

Dude. It is right there. Next to the cosmic force of Life. How hard is it to realize that? It's like saying the Shadowlands is a domain of the Naaru but it appears on the cosmic force of Death.

So you're openly admitting that you are not only a-okay, but also even eager to have the Emerald Dream changed into something it is not, just so you can have your "emerald dream expansion"?

Dude, a whole expansion can't be just what you've seen so far. It is inevitable.

Which is why people have been telling you that the Emerald Dream doesn't work as an expansion theme.

It kinda does. They just don't want another Shadowlands.

Outland was going to be a levelling zone and just a one-area type thing, like Hellfire.

Point still stands. It didn't make the cut. They wanted a bunch of things for vanilla but had to settle for what we got.

The thing is though, the difference between Fel and Emerald Dream stuff isn't just the particular colour of green. Yeah, fel tends towards a sharper, more yellow tone, but that's not consistent.

You have to look at the whole design of the thing and not just "This colour seems off"

Fel magic tends to have surrounding lightning, bright green, dark storm clouds that spiral to a central point. We saw it in Argus, we saw it in Well of Eternity, its a regular Warcraft thing that we know about, a deliberate callback,
Emerald Dream/Druid stuff tends to have soft particle effects, reminiscent of floating clouds, lighter clouds that fade to white, no lightning, and would be more reminiscent of pollen falling than what we've seen

Also frankly I think its a visual thing as it seems completely in line with the fel green in the Warlords of Draenor trailer, which does tie into that whole visual colour thing about the dark storm clouds thing being a Fel Thing

Care to show me another instance of an Emerald-colored fel magic?

I do not think most people perceive those middle two colors as similar to the former and latter colors. Those seem to be held by general consensus to be more of a green-going-on-blue, whereas Emerald is pretty solidly placed in the middle of the color spectrum. It's fairly difficult to conflate the two as similar. Although, as I said, color perception is somewhat subjective, there does exist a general understanding as to where most colors exist on the wavelength spectrum. and teal is around a transitory point, whereas emerald would be best placed around the middle of the "green" area.

[Ielenia]

Apparently. But, you are satisfied with 20% while i'm looking more for like 80%.

For someone who claims "can see the obvious" and "can connect dots", you sure are making a terrible job at it.

What?
Shadowlands = 1 expansion worth of content.
Azeroth = 7 expansions worth of content.

Moving the goalposts? Because you went from "dimension size" to "amount of expansions". Shadowlands and Azeroth are varied. The Emerald Dream is not.

Elementals do not point to Deepholm.

And moss does not point to the Emerald Dream, either. And for the record, neither does blue glowing algae. And yet here you are, making such claims.

What? Were you expecting different kinds of forests? Is that what you were trying to achieve?

I was expecting you to realize the folly of your arguments in your attempts to change the Emerald Dream into something it is not.

You don't know if it encompasses Azeroth only.

Considering we have lore spelling it out that it was created as a blueprint for Azeroth, I'd say we do know that.

Rocks and stones do not stick out in the cinematic.

They do, though. That giant stone building is sitting atop a rocky shore. The stone watchers also stand vigil on that same rocky shore. Later in the cinematic we see that stone watcher falling down to its death toward the stone ground.

Stone Watchers do not hint at anything Earth elemental related, but Titanic content.

And the Emerald Dream, because everything points to the Emerald Dream, apparently. Even demons and their fel magic point to the Emerald Dream, in your eyes.

How many times do i have to repeat myself? They are retconning the creations that were associated with the Titans to be instead the works of the First ones. Period. There's nothing to debate.

Until you realize you're wrong? Because that book doesn't mean the Titans didn't create anything at all, and despite that, we're talking about a watcher, not a titan. And again, we have mortals being able to create pocket dimensions, so I'll ask again: why do you think watchers are incapable of the same feat?

Did you miss the Dreadlord example? Originally beings of Death, they turned into beings of Fel, Light, delved into the Void and might even infiltrated Life. Doesn't mean they can be representatives of the other forces of the universe.

Except no one is claiming that Freya or Tyr are "representatives" of anything.

Dude. It is right there.

Doesn't matter. The Emerald Dream is not the "plane of life" because the Emerald Dream is a tiny (by comparison) pocket dimension that is the size of Azeroth.

Dude, a whole expansion can't be just what you've seen so far. It is inevitable.

Which is why the Emerald Dream doesn't work as an expansion theme. That's what we've been saying! Because it lacks the proper variation of biomes that is basically required of an expansion's location.

It kinda does.

You so far have failed to properly explain why it does without changing it into something it's not.

[username993720]

For someone who claims "can see the obvious" and "can connect dots", you sure are making a terrible job at it.

No. You're just tunnel-visioned.

Moving the goalposts? Because you went from "dimension size" to "amount of expansions". Shadowlands and Azeroth are varied. The Emerald Dream is not.

Meaning, Shadowlands consists of 6 zones. Azeroth consists of 8 continents.

And moss does not point to the Emerald Dream, either. And for the record, neither does blue glowing algae. And yet here you are, making such claims.

Are you saying the Emerald Dream has no relevancy to the expansion or going forward?

I was expecting you to realize the folly of your arguments in your attempts to change the Emerald Dream into something it is not.

It's time you realize it can't stay the same anymore.

Considering we have lore spelling it out that it was created as a blueprint for Azeroth, I'd say we do know that.

Which, could be obsolete the moment an Emerald Dream expansion launches. We also expected the Shadowlands to be an Azerothian realm, yet it went universal.

They do, though. That giant stone building is sitting atop a rocky shore. The stone watchers also stand vigil on that same rocky shore. Later in the cinematic we see that stone watcher falling down to its death toward the stone ground.

I'll give you an example. Remember these animated shows where you could tell what was background and what was animated? It had stronger colors and an outline. Same with games. You'd know what is interactable and what is just background. That's how you approach cinematic analysis.

And the Emerald Dream, because everything points to the Emerald Dream, apparently. Even demons and their fel magic point to the Emerald Dream, in your eyes.

If it wasn't moss-covered, a clear reference to the numerous titanic statues lying around the Emerald Dream zone. And the fact that Titans were related to the Emerald Dream in lore, hence why the Emerald in their designs, like the staff, headband and columns.

Until you realize you're wrong? Because that book doesn't mean the Titans didn't create anything at all, and despite that, we're talking about a watcher, not a titan. And again, we have mortals being able to create pocket dimensions, so I'll ask again: why do you think watchers are incapable of the same feat?

If i'm not able to convince you, maybe he will:

Except no one is claiming that Freya or Tyr are "representatives" of anything.

Dreadlords didn't create the Twisting Nether, either, did they?

Doesn't matter. The Emerald Dream is not the "plane of life" because the Emerald Dream is a tiny (by comparison) pocket dimension that is the size of Azeroth.

Calling Azeroth tiny is baffling...
A pocket dimension of what cosmic force, exactly? You keep forgetting that fact.

Which is why the Emerald Dream doesn't work as an expansion theme. That's what we've been saying! Because it lacks the proper variation of biomes that is basically required of an expansion's location.

That's where innovation comes in.

You so far have failed to properly explain why it does without changing it into something it's not.

Because of the potential. You're so afraid of change, it blurs your vision.

[Ielenia]

No. You're just tunnel-visioned.

Says the guy who is so deep into tunnel-vision that everything even remotely green-ish is a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Meaning, Shadowlands consists of 6 zones. Azeroth consists of 8 continents.

So? What's your point? Since the Emerald Dream is a copy of Azeroth, it would be "eight continents of lush, green forests".

Are you saying the Emerald Dream has no relevancy to the expansion or going forward?

That is not what I said.

It's time you realize it can't stay the same anymore.

Except it will stay the same. Unless something happens to make it into "not Emerald Dream", like how it happened to Draenor that changed it into Outland.

Which, could be obsolete the moment an Emerald Dream expansion launches.

So... never? Because an expansion based in never-ending same-y forests for all the zones in the expansion is not going to happen.

I'll give you an example. Remember these animated shows where you could tell what was background and what was animated? It had stronger colors and an outline. Same with games. You'd know what is interactable and what is just background. That's how you approach cinematic analysis.

You're still wrong. We made that association in older cartoons because that is something we constantly saw in other cartoons at the time. This isn't the case here.

If it wasn't moss-covered, a clear reference to the numerous titanic statues lying around the Emerald Dream zone.

It's not a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Dreadlords didn't create the Twisting Nether, either, did they?

Can you show me a piece of lore that originally said the dreadlords created the Twisting Nether?

Calling Azeroth tiny is baffling...

Yes, I am calling it tiny BY COMPARISON. That's an important keyword you're missing or ignoring.

A pocket dimension of what cosmic force, exactly? You keep forgetting that fact.

So what? That doesn't mean the Emerald Dream is the plane of life.

That's where innovation comes in.

So innovation, for you, is the destruction and desecration of current lore?

Because of the potential. You're so afraid of change, it blurs your vision.

I'm not afraid of change. I just dislike dumb changes for the sake of change. Especially one that heavily retcons something into something else entirely.

[Lochton]

Anyone else think they should stop using new zone ideas for major tier content? Zones like Argus, Nazjatar, Korthia and inevitably Zareth Mortis become ghost towns, compared to the much livelier & beloved zones like Suramar & Hyjal

Nazjatar is actually still partially being used. To be honest, the most dead zones I've seen, are the zones that are not part of Azeroth (Outland, Draenor, Argus, and soon Shadowlands is going to join with Korthia, the Maw, and ZM).

- - - Updated - - -

Mate.

Can we just put an end to this, @username993720?

The green light in the cinematic is NOT the bloody Emerald Dream, or a hint to it, it is Azeroth freaking sundering! The reason the colors can be considered different is down to perspective, and the fact that it is an HD cinematic compared to the small shards of it that we have seen before.

Why would you connect the Emerald Dream to the shit show created at the Well of Eternity? There ain't no Dream there, just the Night Elves witnessing their home going down.

[Mecheon]

Care to show me another instance of an Emerald-colored fel magic?

Legion Fel reaver model update, Felstone Inquisitor card from Hearthstone, plenty of instances of fel going into other shades of green.

Care to show me another instance of the Emerald Dream being represented with dark storm clouds, lightning, and a whole heap of visual elements we've seen previously associated with the Legion? You can't discard all of the visual language associated with the Legion just because of a slight colour shift that can be explained away with lighting

[Lochton]

Legion Fel reaver model update, Felstone Inquisitor card from Hearthstone, plenty of instances of fel going into other shades of green.

Care to show me another instance of the Emerald Dream being represented with dark storm clouds, lightning, and a whole heap of visual elements we've seen previously associated with the Legion? You can't discard all of the visual language associated with the Legion just because of a slight colour shift that can be explained away with lighting

Well, the user doesn't like that we take those other things into account. I mean, I don't really like the idea that the Emerald Dream is the reasoning behind the Sundering, and not what happened at the Well of Eternity, soon the Emerald Legion shall arrive?

[Mecheon]

Well, the user doesn't like that we take those other things into account. I mean, I don't really like the idea that the Emerald Dream is the reasoning behind the Sundering, and not what happened at the Well of Eternity, soon the Emerald Legion shall arrive?

Ain't it just?

Heck, I was just going through my mounts and, hey, y'know the Felfire hawk's description?

Burning things in emerald flame.

hrm.

[username993720]

Says the guy who is so deep into tunnel-vision that everything even remotely green-ish is a reference to the Emerald Dream.

At least i'm not so fixated on soon-to-be old lore.

So? What's your point? Since the Emerald Dream is a copy of Azeroth, it would be "eight continents of lush, green forests".

You said it is tiny.
You really believe 8 continets of a planet would be all foresty?

That is not what I said.

Then, that's it. You acknowledge what i say is right.

Except it will stay the same. Unless something happens to make it into "not Emerald Dream", like how it happened to Draenor that changed it into Outland.

Let's see... did Shadowlands stayed the same? Nope. Did the Dragon Isles? Nope. Would the Emerald Dream? Unlikely. They're introducing so many new aspects to the lore that would inevitably affect that place as a lore zone, from the First Ones, to the Elementals and so on...

So... never? Because an expansion based in never-ending same-y forests for all the zones in the expansion is not going to happen.

Correct.
That's not how an Emerald Dream expansion would look like.

You're still wrong. We made that association in older cartoons because that is something we constantly saw in other cartoons at the time. This isn't the case here.

Look for motifs in each and every WoW cinematic, from WotLk or MoP forward. You'll see what i'm talking about.

It's not a reference to the Emerald Dream.

It's a reference to the statues lying around that place, which is in turn a reference to the Emerald Dream.

Can you show me a piece of lore that originally said the dreadlords created the Twisting Nether?

No. That's my point. Beings that delve into other cosmic forces are not responsible for the creation of dimensions related to it. Same as with the Titans. They didn't create the dimension associated with the Plane of Life. They ordered it.

Yes, I am calling it tiny BY COMPARISON. That's an important keyword you're missing or ignoring.

How it is it tiny in comparison?

So what? That doesn't mean the Emerald Dream is the plane of life.

That means it belongs to that cosmic force. Don't drop this important fact.

So innovation, for you, is the destruction and desecration of current lore?

No. It's expanding on a concept. It doesn't mean there wouldn't be a green forest. It means there will be more.

I'm not afraid of change. I just dislike dumb changes for the sake of change. Especially one that heavily retcons something into something else entirely.

There's so much you can drag the same concept for over 20 years...something has to change if they want to utilize that lore location.

Mate.

Can we just put an end to this, @username993720?

The green light in the cinematic is NOT the bloody Emerald Dream, or a hint to it, it is Azeroth freaking sundering! The reason the colors can be considered different is down to perspective, and the fact that it is an HD cinematic compared to the small shards of it that we have seen before.

Why would you connect the Emerald Dream to the shit show created at the Well of Eternity? There ain't no Dream there, just the Night Elves witnessing their home going down.

Legion cinematic is not low quality.
You keep talking about the event. We all know what it is. I'm talking about the color. The artistic choice to go with Emerald green. That's a recurring motif in the cinematic. It is used in the water scene, when the Titanic Watcher wakes up. It is used in the titans' architecture and gear, sporting pieces of Emerald green.

Legion Fel reaver model update, Felstone Inquisitor card from Hearthstone, plenty of instances of fel going into other shades of green.

Care to show me another instance of the Emerald Dream being represented with dark storm clouds, lightning, and a whole heap of visual elements we've seen previously associated with the Legion? You can't discard all of the visual language associated with the Legion just because of a slight colour shift that can be explained away with lighting

You are right. They do sport an Emerald green. Still, an interesting choice considering we already had a cinematic felstorm with a different color entirely.

Well, the user doesn't like that we take those other things into account. I mean, I don't really like the idea that the Emerald Dream is the reasoning behind the Sundering, and not what happened at the Well of Eternity, soon the Emerald Legion shall arrive?

What? Who said the Emerald Dream is responsible for the Sundering? I'm not attributing any event to the Emerald Dream. Just the color.