M+ Rewards in Season 1 of Dragonflight now scale to +20s

[Relapses]

I may be in the fringe minority here, but I specifically do want rare drops. It's fun to hunt down items, I LOVED titanforging.

That's a spicy take in my books. I didn't particularly care for TFing but I really liked Corruption after they added the vendor. Regardless, I think generally the game's better off without it altogether. Too much RNG can start to make the game feel too much like a slot machine.

[Aurora]

The problem is guild leaders having these expectations on its members then the games actual fault unless you want the game to police what your guild leadership requirements? Those of us who despise raiding with a passion want a way to progress our toons as the game is not just a raiding simulator anymore since the people playing it have evolved over time, hell i pug KSM and then stop and do not even treat this game as a MMO.

It's not even a hard requirement in my guild to run M+ but it's a general self-motivation for people in a guild to put in effort to be as prepared as possible. That used to mean simple things like a daily dungeon or unlocking items from reps from daily quests but now it's a whole other sub-game demanding a lot of time and patience.

I've pugged KSM as well for most seasons in BFA and Shadowlands since my guild only had one tank interested in M+ and they get hogged by the officer group. Usually in my healing offspec to make finding groups quicker and stopping at 15 since I'm solely doing it for the vault and not some silly r.io score. The pugs say "hi" at the start and "thanks" at the end and that's about all as far as communication goes, it's like playing with bots doing the same dungeons over and over again. All accompanied with a timer to make sure you're kept on edge and can never relax. Absolutely mind numbing, it single handedly makes me want to not play the game.

This is obviously a common complaint about the game and even within my guild. My GM is fully understanding if I want to only log in for raids and never touch M+, I was told as much and decided to try it during BFA on the Eternal Palace. By the end of the second raiding week I was a full 20 ilevels behind those in the guild who were running M+ daily which felt uncomfortable and not very fun since I couldn't compete for damage with the others in the guild anymore, felt as if my performance was being carried by others and also that I was stifling raid progress but not being as geared as I could be. It's a no-win situation.

I don't think anyone should feel as if they're forced into raiding either. It's just horrendous design that these two very different forms of gameplay are so intertwined that people feel not doing both is stifling their character progression.

[Razorice]

I like this change.

There was little to no incentive to run anything past 15+ if you're not going for FOMO achieves and RIO, this change makes it so people can try and push higher keys for better rewards!

[jeezusisacasual]

It's not even a hard requirement in my guild to run M+ but it's a general self-motivation for people in a guild to put in effort to be as prepared as possible. That used to mean simple things like a daily dungeon or unlocking items from reps from daily quests but now it's a whole other sub-game demanding a lot of time and patience.

I've pugged KSM as well for most seasons in BFA and Shadowlands since my guild only had one tank interested in M+ and they get hogged by the officer group. Usually in my healing offspec to make finding groups quicker and stopping at 15 since I'm solely doing it for the vault and not some silly r.io score. The pugs say "hi" at the start and "thanks" at the end and that's about all as far as communication goes, it's like playing with bots doing the same dungeons over and over again. All accompanied with a timer to make sure you're kept on edge and can never relax. Absolutely mind numbing, it single handedly makes me want to not play the game.

This is obviously a common complaint about the game and even within my guild. My GM is fully understanding if I want to only log in for raids and never touch M+, I was told as much and decided to try it during BFA on the Eternal Palace. By the end of the second raiding week I was a full 20 ilevels behind those in the guild who were running M+ daily which felt uncomfortable and not very fun since I couldn't compete for damage with the others in the guild anymore, felt as if my performance was being carried by others and also that I was stifling raid progress but not being as geared as I could be. It's a no-win situation.

I don't think anyone should feel as if they're forced into raiding either. It's just horrendous design that these two very different forms of gameplay are so intertwined that people feel not doing both is stifling their character progression.

I gave up raiding at the end of WoD because of the change in direction from easier with gear to mechanically sound and by easier with gear i mean just obliterating the boss before mechanics even showed up etc. I wanted a more relaxed raiding situation while still getting the best gear in the game without trying to play Dark Souls in WoW. When i was able to get a seasonal mount and have some fun for a few weeks is why i played from Legion going forward stopping once i got KSM every single season as i treat WoW as a lobby game with Mythic plus 15s as my end game. Playing for 2-3 weeks and then stopping to play other games has been nothing but a boon to me since i do not like most MMO's excluding WoW seasonally and FF14 when i get the itch. Am i good enough to raid a high level? Sure but what incentive is there? I do not chase BIS or logs or being the best.

For the timer i generally ignore it because either way you get points towards your KSM assuming that you did not blow the timer by a wide margin and i tend to think some pressure is fine if its in the back of your mind as a way to put your feet to the fire ( i am also a tank only so perhaps thats why i like the timer? ). I find it interesting to find little bits about the dungeon with repeated trips like the extra infiltrators this current season which helps keep them somewhat fresh. The way mythic plus is constructed reminds me of my favorite part of Diablo3 which is greater rifts in a way, not the same but the same kind of impact i guess.

For reference on my brewmaster monk i finished KSM this season at 288 Ilvl 9 days in to the patch with Iron Docks, Kara Upper , Streets and Gambit all at 17 or 18 with lower kara being done at 12 on both tyranical and fortified. Which to me at 9 days is a perfect amount of time to play in a lobby based dungeon only game since most of my friends have stopped playing so WoW is not a long form game for me anymore nor should it be since i have an avenue to complete those goals with unique rewards that is on par with raiding with none of the stupidity that comes from raiding. I will also say i have not added a single person on my battle tag or made a new friend doing mythic plus either its just a HI! and Thanks and move on with my life kind of how an opening and ending in a LoL or Dota2 match which again is fantastic its just a jump in and jump out experience like Call of duty or those 2 games i mentioned earlier.

I have never felt compelled as a tank to ever raid one single time this expansion excluding the stupid gem things in season 2 and i got KSM before i unlocked the max ones anyway so it was never really required outside of 2 or 3 trips to LFR. I tend to think that raiders feel compelled to run a piece of content they do not enjoy because of how the fights are tuned and the expectations of the guilds doing those raids. I would not be willing to be apart of a guild that measures your ability based on how much shit you gotta do outside of your content and i myself have never once raided this expansion outside of a pug normal in season 3 to get my 2pc.

[adamap]

It's not even a hard requirement in my guild to run M+ but it's a general self-motivation for people in a guild to put in effort to be as prepared as possible. That used to mean simple things like a daily dungeon or unlocking items from reps from daily quests but now it's a whole other sub-game demanding a lot of time and patience.

I've pugged KSM as well for most seasons in BFA and Shadowlands since my guild only had one tank interested in M+ and they get hogged by the officer group. Usually in my healing offspec to make finding groups quicker and stopping at 15 since I'm solely doing it for the vault and not some silly r.io score. The pugs say "hi" at the start and "thanks" at the end and that's about all as far as communication goes, it's like playing with bots doing the same dungeons over and over again. All accompanied with a timer to make sure you're kept on edge and can never relax. Absolutely mind numbing, it single handedly makes me want to not play the game.

This is obviously a common complaint about the game and even within my guild. My GM is fully understanding if I want to only log in for raids and never touch M+, I was told as much and decided to try it during BFA on the Eternal Palace. By the end of the second raiding week I was a full 20 ilevels behind those in the guild who were running M+ daily which felt uncomfortable and not very fun since I couldn't compete for damage with the others in the guild anymore, felt as if my performance was being carried by others and also that I was stifling raid progress but not being as geared as I could be. It's a no-win situation.

I don't think anyone should feel as if they're forced into raiding either. It's just horrendous design that these two very different forms of gameplay are so intertwined that people feel not doing both is stifling their character progression.

A typical story from raiding only people

What I found funny is that you think m+ is so lack of social communication, yet you can put up with your guild which obviously has some small/closed clique of officers and tanks who do their own things without trying to interact with other people of guild outside raid, they run their own M+ and not bother helping guildie. Outside of that circle, others are just bodies to filling raid. You think that is better than "hi", "gg" from m+ group? probably even worse which I am not gonna to elaborate.

you claim you can pug to KSM most seasons so that is basically doing +15 for both ty and fort on each dungeon. for some reason you not willing to spend 30-40 mins to run a +15 per week, yet you can spend couple of night each week in raid?

what your described is the typical heroic raiding only guild, half are capable raiders and the other half basically need carry in raid, M+ gear difference is only the symptom not the cause. What make you think those will not pug into more raid progression to gear up if there is no M+ at all? Without M+, those capable raiders will jump ship to better progressive guild eventually. To think removing/nerfing M+ gear reward, people will stay together happily everafter is just naive.

[Aurora]

A typical story from heroic raiding only people

What I found funny is that you think m+ is so lack of social communication, yet you can put up with your guild which obviously has some small/closed clique of officers and tanks who do their own things without trying to interact with other people of guild outside raid, they run their own M+ and not bother helping guildie. Outside of that circle, others are just bodies to filling raid. You think that is better than "hi", "gg" from m+ group? probably even worse which I am not gonna to elaborate.

you claim you can pug to KSM most seasons so that is basically doing +15 for both ty and fort on each dungeon. for some reason you not willing to spend 30-40 mins to run a +15 per week, yet you can spend couple of night each week in raid?

what your described is the typical heroic raiding only guild, half are capable raiders and the other half basically need carry in raid, M+ gear difference is only the symptom not the cause. What make you think those will not pug into more raid progression to gear up if there is no M+ at all? Without M+, those capable raiders will jump ship to better progressive guild eventually. To think removing/nerfing M+ gear reward, people will stay together happily everafter is just naive.

One key a week never felt like great odds for getting something useful from the vault so I usually did four to at least have some kind of choice, I was clearly willing to do it for a couple of seasons of Shadowlands at least but that's several hours and a significant amount of time spent weekly doing something I don't enjoy and considered a chore. It takes a toll and leads to burnout eventually.

The rest of what you've said is mostly true, heroic raiding is filled with raiding teams of people with a wide range of skill although it's a mistake to presume that just because somebody is a capable raider that they want to be in a mythic guild and chase progress at all costs.

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I gave up raiding at the end of WoD because of the change in direction from easier with gear to mechanically sound and by easier with gear i mean just obliterating the boss before mechanics even showed up etc. I wanted a more relaxed raiding situation while still getting the best gear in the game without trying to play Dark Souls in WoW. When i was able to get a seasonal mount and have some fun for a few weeks is why i played from Legion going forward stopping once i got KSM every single season as i treat WoW as a lobby game with Mythic plus 15s as my end game. Playing for 2-3 weeks and then stopping to play other games has been nothing but a boon to me since i do not like most MMO's excluding WoW seasonally and FF14 when i get the itch. Am i good enough to raid a high level? Sure but what incentive is there? I do not chase BIS or logs or being the best.

I think that's a great idea, switch games early and often to make sure you're continuously having fun.

In terms of the changing raid design I can understand although I think WoW and any MMO lose a huge deal without the sort of communities that gravitated around raiding in the earlier expansions. Ultimately if people don't want to raid then nothing in the game should attempt to force them into it but the two systems of M+ gear and raid gear still feel too much at odds with each other at the moment.

[Archy]

Well somehow that didn't stop them in Legion and BFA.

Mythic + was better back then, in Shadowlands they ruined it.

If they can add these rare unique powerful items to raiding, they can add them to Mythic +.

The highest gear obtainable in Legion was even worse than in Shadowlands. So no, they didn't run into this particular problem.

But I fully agree that they should add special items to M+. The whole system needs more love as it is more popular than raids (imho).

[Rigsy]

Blizzard treating mythic+ players like a lower class citizen rather than a paying customer, so they can say goodbye to my sub when it expires.

[Coldkil]

Blizzard treating mythic+ players like a lower class citizen rather than a paying customer, so they can say goodbye to my sub when it expires.

You can actually get better gear than before in m+ in DF. Just you cannot get it for free from 15s.

[Rigsy]

I guess it was to be expected. People preferred M+ over raiding, and so the sledge hammer has to come out to REALLY make sure you go do it. Fair enough.

indeed, not everyone can or even wants to raid, mythic+ players are being treated like peasants even though they pay the same monthly tax. somethings not right here..

[trapmaster]

Extra steps with an extra steps with an extra steps with an extra steps.. just stop... this is ridiculous bs change. Make the game fun not extra chore-y

[Koollan]

indeed, not everyone can or even wants to raid, mythic+ players are being treated like peasants even though they pay the same monthly tax. somethings not right here..

Did you not seen the fact that DF has higher rewards for M+ than it ever has?

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Extra steps with an extra steps with an extra steps with an extra steps.. just stop... this is ridiculous bs change. Make the game fun not extra chore-y

M+ is supposed to be content. Smashing out a 15 and calling it a week is not... real content. Is that what you want?

[Rigsy]

Did you not seen the fact that DF has higher rewards for M+ than it ever has?

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M+ is supposed to be content. Smashing out a 15 and calling it a week is not... real content. Is that what you want?

content is defined by the user.

[jeezusisacasual]

Did you not seen the fact that DF has higher rewards for M+ than it ever has?

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M+ is supposed to be content. Smashing out a 15 and calling it a week is not... real content. Is that what you want?

I just play the game until i get KSM and then quit all together, it was 8 days this last time, 15 days the time before that, 19 days before that and 51 days in season 1. I do not chase gear or logs or stats, i am here for content and content alone once that is completed i am done and move on treating WoW like a baulders gate with other people.

[klaps_05]

WoWs gameplay and classes and specs are probably some of the most interesting and interactive of any game. I really wish blizzard changed their gear philosophy and focus on allowing players to explore each patch on as many characters as they want.

Imagine if maxed out gear +/- 2-3 ilevels took only 1 or 2 months of a patch cycle, instead of having people missing gear or ilevel when the new patch is coming. This will allow players to completely explore the high level content blizzard makes on so many classes.

That could be so easily accomplished especially via M+. But nah, lets make shit more complicated, with dozen ilevel systems, brackets, randomly required 10 weeks for 4 pc tier or other non-sense instead of letting people play the game as much as they want.

[Relapses]

WoWs gameplay and classes and specs are probably some of the most interesting and interactive of any game. I really wish blizzard changed their gear philosophy and focus on allowing players to explore each patch on as many characters as they want.

Imagine if maxed out gear +/- 2-3 ilevels took only 1 or 2 months of a patch cycle, instead of having people missing gear or ilevel when the new patch is coming. This will allow players to completely explore the high level content blizzard makes on so many classes.

That could be so easily accomplished especially via M+. But nah, lets make shit more complicated, with dozen ilevel systems, brackets, randomly required 10 weeks for 4 pc tier or other non-sense instead of letting people play the game as much as they want.

The game's primary content loop is gear upgrades. By design, almost all content in the game is soft nerfed by better gear. Your suggestion would not only make the game significantly less interesting for a majority of players, it'd also require them to tune encounters to the point that lower-end Mythic guilds likely wouldn't be able to kill any bosses in the instance at all. Hard pass, imo.

[Jester Joe]

content is defined by the user.

What.

That's not how it works at all. Like, pet battles are still content even if you don't engage with it.

This sounds like some sorta "the customer is always right!!!" nonsense honestly.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

The game's primary content loop is gear upgrades. By design, almost all content in the game is soft nerfed by better gear. Your suggestion would not only make the game significantly less interesting for a majority of players, it'd also require them to tune encounters to the point that lower-end Mythic guilds likely wouldn't be able to kill any bosses in the instance at all. Hard pass, imo.

The other thing is that the easier and quicker gear is to get, the more FOTM becomes important. Like, it would be even worse than now where it is already bad

[Rigsy]

What.

That's not how it works at all. Like, pet battles are still content even if you don't engage with it.

This sounds like some sorta "the customer is always right!!!" nonsense honestly.

if mythic+ is my personal content then so be it, no one is to say otherwise to me.

[sponge5307]

I don't raid coz I don't have time to sit there for hours and hours and not even getting loot. I don't raid coz I don't want to be tie down to a schedule several hours a week to raid.
m+ was perfect I can do a few dungeons here and there and it doesn't take long. Now with the lower ilvl gear in m+ and the fact you need to get to m+20 for the max ilvl (which is more like a +23 on live). totally turn me off. I might just complete the story unsub and come back last season and see how things are.

For people who remember when in SL doing S1 to get +15 timed was terrible. It didn't get better till mid S2.