Give the Horde better leaders.

[Darth-Piekus]

I always find the internment camp thing funny.

Every other invading enemy force, heck even hostile local forces, have been ground into dust and put to the sword by pretty much every faction throughout warcraft's history.

Yet the alliance, after the orcs came from a portal, butchered the southern lands, headed north to do the same, while also tring to call the burning legion to destroy the world, decided to instead lock the orcs up and keep them fed. Now, the interment camps sucked, but you're also asking medieval nations to support effectivey an additional nation of former marauding killers.

What should have the alliance done otherwise? They had 3 options:
1) Keep the orcs in better conditions, possible at the loss of their own nations, under hope the orcs would magically reform and become their friends?
2) Kill the orcs, like every other hostile force.
3) Let them keep the south, or otherwise give them land, hoping the horde would learn their lesson (admittedly, this would be the modern alliance stance)

What was the alliance supposed to do? They created effectively a wellfare state to help keep the orcs alive.

I wonder if they gave Orcs some land into a fertile area would they behave differently?

[Caiphon]

Alliance is so "victorious" that best they can do is leave an empty threat and actually give more of their stuff to the Horde , legally or just matter of factly.

Hell, Alliance even helped Forsaken clean up Undercity after Shadowlands which is INSANE. You do not fucken help your enemy like this! Every victim of the forsaken after that will be on Alliance's list now, since they helped them regain ground.

Thats just how it always goes - victory without rewards, but with all the losses, while enemy "loses" but comes out on top somehow when it comes to the final "score" of loss to gain ratio.

Everything is relative. Winning a war and getting nothing out of it isn't great, but losing a war and having your capital sacked sucks just a bit more.

As for Genn sending the Alliance PC to help Calia out, he got a rather sweet deal out of it with Calia pushing for the return of Gilneas to him. This was pretty much a win for both sides, something that doesn't happen all that often in this game.

One thing you might consider is that the Horde has lost many loved lore characters to the faction drama either because the writers made them go insane or because they fell victim to the insane. Garrosh, Saurfang, Sylvanas, all were once relatable characters. Rastakhan a bit less so but he was still a prominent lore figure even before his debut. Meanwhile the Alliance lost 0 major lore characters to the Horde since Putress killed Bolvar, and Bolvar came back pretty quickly. The Alliance still has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Muradin, Moira, Gelbin, Velen and even got the Alleria-Turalyon couple back. The Horde has preciously few old timers left - it's basically Thrall, Baine (who was a nobody up until MoP) and Lor'themar at this point. I just hope nothing happens to Thrall in the near future as Blizzard's been quite eager to seperate him from Horde for the last decade or so.

[Grazrug]

I always find the internment camp thing funny.

Every other invading enemy force, heck even hostile local forces, have been ground into dust and put to the sword by pretty much every faction throughout warcraft's history.

Yet the alliance, after the orcs came from a portal, butchered the southern lands, headed north to do the same, while also tring to call the burning legion to destroy the world, decided to instead lock the orcs up and keep them fed. Now, the interment camps sucked, but you're also asking medieval nations to support effectivey an additional nation of former marauding killers.

What should have the alliance done otherwise? They had 3 options:
1) Keep the orcs in better conditions, possible at the loss of their own nations, under hope the orcs would magically reform and become their friends?
2) Kill the orcs, like every other hostile force.
3) Let them keep the south, or otherwise give them land, hoping the horde would learn their lesson (admittedly, this would be the modern alliance stance)

What was the alliance supposed to do? They created effectively a wellfare state to help keep the orcs alive.

Thrall actually demanded land from Terenas after they escaped the camps. But then Medivh showed up and told them to go west.

[Ninelives9]

Here is the deal! Horde can have whatever they want as long as the Alliance can kill Anduin! We need to put an end to the ridiculous "high king" silliness.

[Grazrug]

Everything is relative. Winning a war and getting nothing out of it isn't great, but losing a war and having your capital sacked sucks just a bit more.

As for Genn sending the Alliance PC to help Calia out, he got a rather sweet deal out of it with Calia pushing for the return of Gilneas to him. This was pretty much a win for both sides, something that doesn't happen all that often in this game.

One thing you might consider is that the Horde has lost many loved lore characters to the faction drama either because the writers made them go insane or because they fell victim to the insane. Garrosh, Saurfang, Sylvanas, all were once relatable characters. Rastakhan a bit less so but he was still a prominent lore figure even before his debut. Meanwhile the Alliance lost 0 major lore characters to the Horde since Putress killed Bolvar, and Bolvar came back pretty quickly. The Alliance still has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Muradin, Moira, Gelbin, Velen and even got the Alleria-Turalyon couple back. The Horde has preciously few old timers left - it's basically Thrall, Baine (who was a nobody up until MoP) and Lor'themar at this point. I just hope nothing happens to Thrall in the near future as Blizzard's been quite eager to seperate him from Horde for the last decade or so.

I couldn't care less if Thrall passed away. The entire council is basically a puppet government installed by Anduin to hold the Horde on a short leash. They have shown already that its members care not for the well being of the faction.

- - - Updated - - -

Here is the deal! Horde can have whatever they want as long as the Alliance can kill Anduin! We need to put an end to the ridiculous "high king" silliness.

Why do you hate Anduin? He has proven himself in Bfa by dealing a massive blow to the Zandalari.

[Feanoro]

I don't know why you feel so personally attacked when I've never addressed you in person (before now anyway).

To introduce yourself to me, your approach was to make strawman assumptions and attack me on those. Seems like you do that to others too, with comments like "I don't know if you played the game" and other condescending crap.

you don't see an angry mob of Horde fans pop up everytime the Alliance is mentioned, not on these forums anyway.

You really ARE new here. There's precious few Alliance posters, and damn few Alliance topics because every one of them has the Horde poster dogpiling like @Darth-Piekus has described. If you haven't seen that, to use an ancient Internet phrase, lurk more.


@Myradin
Absolutely correct. Reminder, the success of the Cult of the Damned was in no small part due to anger over high taxes to pay for the camps. People were correctly pointing out they had lost family, friends, and homes, and now were expected to work harder to support the very monsters who had done all that.

I wonder if they gave Orcs some land into a fertile area would they behave differently?

I know this was likely sarcasm, but just in case... They did, when they won so hard they ceded Azshara to the Horde. Did the Horde proceed to use it wisely? No, they put in goblin roller coasters, pollution, and the usual strip mining and clear cutting, and immediately blamed the Alliance again for not having resources.

[Ninelives9]

I couldn't care less if Thrall passed away. The entire council is basically a puppet government installed by Anduin to hold the Horde on a short leash. They have shown already that its members care not for the well being of the faction.

- - - Updated - - -



Why do you hate Anduin? He has proven himself in Bfa by dealing a massive blow to the Zandalari.

The Alliance never-ever needed a chosen one, a High King. Personally I always liked the fact that Alliance had more of a council-like system, for that allowed for more (possible) drama, more story and variation. I know Blizzard did the High King storyline purely because it's easier on the cinematic theme and the writers, but it's just blehhh! I rather see disagreements, fights and so on among the Alliance over "Here is your most boring human blonde, nice guy leader you can imagine."

I started to even play more Horde because of the above as well. The faction became much more interesting with there being less focus on a single warchief that rules em all.

[Varodoc]

I wonder if they gave Orcs some land into a fertile area would they behave differently?

I mean, WoD answers your question, No?

Draenor that appears in WoD had not been destroyed yet, nor was it dying. Nagrand was fertile, Talador was fertile, Shadowmoon was fertile, Tanaan was a lush jungle. Did the orcs behave differently despite having a fertile and lush world where they could live a just and peaceful life?

[Grazrug]

I mean, WoD answers your question, No?

Draenor that appears in WoD had not been destroyed yet, nor was it dying. Nagrand was fertile, Talador was fertile, Shadowmoon was fertile, Tanaan was a lush jungle. Did the orcs behave differently despite having a fertile and lush world where they could live a just and peaceful life?

The majority of the Orcs lived in Gorgrond which was quite hostile to "normal" life due to the warring between the Breakers and Botani.

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The Alliance never-ever needed a chosen one, a High King. Personally I always liked the fact that Alliance had more of a council-like system, for that allowed for more (possible) drama, more story and variation. I know Blizzard did the High King storyline purely because it's easier on the cinematic theme and the writers, but it's just blehhh! I rather see disagreements, fights and so on among the Alliance over "Here is your most boring human blonde, nice guy leader you can imagine."

I started to even play more Horde because of the above as well. The faction became much more interesting with there being less focus on a single warchief that rules em all.

I would trade the entire Horde council if it means we get back all the old characters that were killed off due to the Horde turning on itself at every step on the lore.

[Caiphon]

I couldn't care less if Thrall passed away. The entire council is basically a puppet government installed by Anduin to hold the Horde on a short leash. They have shown already that its members care not for the well being of the faction.

Thrall is literally the only leader the Horde has left from the WC3 era, and he in a way embodies the 'noble savage' styled Horde that we had from Vanilla up to Wrath. Without him I'd hardly have an NPC to relate to within the faction which is pretty sad. And I doubt Anduin is capable of that level of political manipulation when he's so... fragile... that he sends himself into self-imposed exile because some shit he did under Bald Man's control felt nice.

To introduce yourself to me, your approach was to make strawman assumptions and attack me on those. Seems like you do that to others too, with comments like "I don't know if you played the game" and other condescending crap.

Like every single statement in that paragraph is wrong. I haven't 'introduced' myself to you today as we've discussed similar matters before, I did not attack or even address you specifically and 'I don't know if you've played Horde quests' is quite different from 'lol do you even play the game'. Or do you believe every single WoW player has max level toons on both factions? Not to mention condescending is a bit rich coming from you when your first reply today was literally 'HA HA HA HA HA'.

You really ARE new here. There's precious few Alliance posters, and damn few Alliance topics because every one of them has the Horde poster dogpiling like @Darth-Piekus has described. If you haven't seen that, to use an ancient Internet phrase, lurk more.

Well so far in this thread I've seen one aggressive Horde fan and around three aggressive Alliance ones including yourself. Also applies to other Lore Forum threads that recently derailed into faction hate, it's always the same two or three folks or so (I'd rather not start naming people) that go on and on about how horrible the Horde is and how they're given 'preferential treatment' etc etc, often in ways that have nothing to do with the original topic. Call me blind but I haven't seen multiple Horde fans seething at the bare mention of the Alliance during the last few weeks, going on a rant about how shitty the Alliance is.

[Grazrug]

Thrall is literally the only leader the Horde has left from the WC3 era, and he in a way embodies the 'noble savage' styled Horde that we had from Vanilla up to Wrath. Without him I'd hardly have an NPC to relate to within the faction which is pretty sad. And I doubt Anduin is capable of that level of political manipulation when he's so... fragile... that he sends himself into self-imposed exile because some shit he did under Bald Man's control felt nice.



Like every single statement in that paragraph is wrong. I haven't 'introduced' myself to you today as we've discussed similar matters before, I did not attack or even address you specifically and 'I don't know if you've played Horde quests' is quite different from 'lol do you even play the game'. Or do you believe every single WoW player has max level toons on both factions? Not to mention condescending is a bit rich coming from you when your first reply today was literally 'HA HA HA HA HA'.



Well so far in this thread I've seen one aggressive Horde fan and around three aggressive Alliance ones including yourself. Also applies to other Lore Forum threads that recently derailed into faction hate, it's always the same two or three folks or so (I'd rather not start naming people) that go on and on about how horrible the Horde is and how they're given 'preferential treatment' etc etc, often in ways that have nothing to do with the original topic. Call me blind but I haven't seen multiple Horde fans seething at the bare mention of the Alliance during the last few weeks, going on a rant about how shitty the Alliance is.

And all leaders we had from the Warcraft 2 and TFT 3 era are gone. And yes I count Zul'jin and Kael'thas on that. These were among those who were destinied to lead their race. Then Blizzard axed the Amani entirley making them villains instead of allies and the blood elves got someone who is a second in command from Sylvanas who didn't even exist pre WOW. so yes I am quite pessimistic about the future of the Horde. Blizzard has axed a bunch of cool people who had amazing character development in favor of a pale cast of people who have no personality apart from agreeing to the peace treaty. Bfa was the expansion that buried the Horde. And it shows.

[Darth-Piekus]

Thrall is literally the only leader the Horde has left from the WC3 era, and he in a way embodies the 'noble savage' styled Horde that we had from Vanilla up to Wrath. Without him I'd hardly have an NPC to relate to within the faction which is pretty sad. And I doubt Anduin is capable of that level of political manipulation when he's so... fragile... that he sends himself into self-imposed exile because some shit he did under Bald Man's control felt nice.



Like every single statement in that paragraph is wrong. I haven't 'introduced' myself to you today as we've discussed similar matters before, I did not attack or even address you specifically and 'I don't know if you've played Horde quests' is quite different from 'lol do you even play the game'. Or do you believe every single WoW player has max level toons on both factions? Not to mention condescending is a bit rich coming from you when your first reply today was literally 'HA HA HA HA HA'.



Well so far in this thread I've seen one aggressive Horde fan and around three aggressive Alliance ones including yourself. Also applies to other Lore Forum threads that recently derailed into faction hate, it's always the same two or three folks or so (I'd rather not start naming people) that go on and on about how horrible the Horde is and how they're given 'preferential treatment' etc etc, often in ways that have nothing to do with the original topic. Call me blind but I haven't seen multiple Horde fans seething at the bare mention of the Alliance during the last few weeks, going on a rant about how shitty the Alliance is.

My friend you must be new and I'm not saying that in a negative way. I can name you at least 10 names of Horde apologists from the Garrosh era and this recent one that come in my mind but I won't because these 10 names might be offended.

[Aleksej89]

Last well made leader horde had was... uh...
Not thrall, not garrosh, not voljin, not sylvanas...

Perhaps blizz should lay off from writing horde leaders.
Their track record is horrendously bad, tilting between "absolutely useless afk" and "so nazi they would make hitler blush".

Though even that is better than the writing alliance leaders get, which tilts from non-existent to "so illogical and inconsistent that even fans regret anything was written at all".

[VladlTutushkin]

Everything is relative. Winning a war and getting nothing out of it isn't great, but losing a war and having your capital sacked sucks just a bit more.

As for Genn sending the Alliance PC to help Calia out, he got a rather sweet deal out of it with Calia pushing for the return of Gilneas to him. This was pretty much a win for both sides, something that doesn't happen all that often in this game.

One thing you might consider is that the Horde has lost many loved lore characters to the faction drama either because the writers made them go insane or because they fell victim to the insane. Garrosh, Saurfang, Sylvanas, all were once relatable characters. Rastakhan a bit less so but he was still a prominent lore figure even before his debut. Meanwhile the Alliance lost 0 major lore characters to the Horde since Putress killed Bolvar, and Bolvar came back pretty quickly. The Alliance still has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Muradin, Moira, Gelbin, Velen and even got the Alleria-Turalyon couple back. The Horde has preciously few old timers left - it's basically Thrall, Baine (who was a nobody up until MoP) and Lor'themar at this point. I just hope nothing happens to Thrall in the near future as Blizzard's been quite eager to seperate him from Horde for the last decade or so.

Tyrande would be better off dead than alive, with her being entirely robbed of personality and reduced to "vengeance bad" tool. Malfurion is going to die in Dragonflight anyway as we already know.

Alliance characters are reduced to empty husks, they are essentially dead and just "go on" but lose all connection to who they were meant to be and what they were meant to represent.

Also "sacking" implies burning, raping, stealing and etc, and while i cant blame any Alliance soldier for no raping (seeing a troll woman is torture enough, really, and orc women are only one step behind, not even speaking of tauren) Orgrimmar was not torched, pillaged or otherwise despoiled.

Google Sack of Novgorod when Ivan the Terrible literally filled the river with corpses of citizens or Sack of Constantinople when crusaders almost reduced it to rubble and stole more gold from it than Fort Knox has and so on, and etc.

Basically the purpose of a sack is to punish an enemy and replenish your treasury or reward your army this way. SoO was ANYTHING but a proper sack. More like a very tame siege, without even destroying the outer wall, since the gate was breached so you cant even say that they damaged its fortifications a lot, making it hard to repair.

Also again, "winning" is only used here very loosely, since if you win but have to appease the loser with tribute of land its some weird ass victory. When you "win" you do not owe your enemy shit nothing.

[Caiphon]

Tyrande would be better off dead than alive, with her being entirely robbed of personality and reduced to "vengeance bad" tool. Malfurion is going to die in Dragonflight anyway as we already know.

Alliance characters are reduced to empty husks, they are essentially dead and just "go on" but lose all connection to who they were meant to be and what they were meant to represent.

Also "sacking" implies burning, raping, stealing and etc, and while i cant blame any Alliance soldier for no raping (seeing a troll woman is torture enough, really, and orc women are only one step behind, not even speaking of tauren) Orgrimmar was not torched, pillaged or otherwise despoiled.

Google Sack of Novgorod when Ivan the Terrible literally filled the river with corpses of citizens or Sack of Constantinople when crusaders almost reduced it to rubble and stole more gold from it than Fort Knox has and so on, and etc.

Basically the purpose of a sack is to punish an enemy and replenish your treasury or reward your army this way. SoO was ANYTHING but a proper sack. More like a very tame siege, without even destroying the outer wall, since the gate was breached so you cant even say that they damaged its fortifications a lot, making it hard to repair.

Also again, "winning" is only used here very loosely, since if you win but have to appease the loser with tribute of land its some weird ass victory. When you "win" you do not owe your enemy shit nothing.

We don't really know what happended during/after SoO but in the very next expansion Khadgar points out that the city was sacked and Gazlowe agrees, though somewhat reluctantly (Horde garrison quest). Even if there wasn't a huge massacre having your literal capital taken by the opposing faction isn't exactly flattering. One could call the Alliance victory hollow, but a hollow victory is still a step above defeat imo. And like others have said, faction wars can't have completely one-sided victories anyway due to there being players on both sides.

I could agree that many Alliance characters have lost their personalities (Jaina's practically the only one that's seen any sort of character development) but keep in mind that surviving Horde characters had very little in that department to begin with. Baine has generally been a very buff damsel in distress that PCs get to save since his debut, Lor'themar is a loveable smartass but isn't really all that representative of the Horde (and almost defected to Alliance in MoP). As of now the Horde is basically a Thrall faction - lose him and they'll lose any sense of identity whatsoever.

[Gann Stonespire]

Everything is relative. Winning a war and getting nothing out of it isn't great, but losing a war and having your capital sacked sucks just a bit more.

As for Genn sending the Alliance PC to help Calia out, he got a rather sweet deal out of it with Calia pushing for the return of Gilneas to him. This was pretty much a win for both sides, something that doesn't happen all that often in this game.

One thing you might consider is that the Horde has lost many loved lore characters to the faction drama either because the writers made them go insane or because they fell victim to the insane. Garrosh, Saurfang, Sylvanas, all were once relatable characters. Rastakhan a bit less so but he was still a prominent lore figure even before his debut. Meanwhile the Alliance lost 0 major lore characters to the Horde since Putress killed Bolvar, and Bolvar came back pretty quickly. The Alliance still has Anduin, Tyrande, Malfurion, Muradin, Moira, Gelbin, Velen and even got the Alleria-Turalyon couple back. The Horde has preciously few old timers left - it's basically Thrall, Baine (who was a nobody up until MoP) and Lor'themar at this point. I just hope nothing happens to Thrall in the near future as Blizzard's been quite eager to seperate him from Horde for the last decade or so.

Baine is a nobody right now, infact he's even worse than a nobody, he's a liability to the Horde that has actively sabotaged and killed his own people in service of the enemy's leadership.

I could agree that many Alliance characters have lost their personalities (Jaina's practically the only one that's seen any sort of character development) but keep in mind that surviving Horde characters had very little in that department to begin with. Baine has generally been a very buff damsel in distress that PCs get to save since his debut, Lor'themar is a loveable smartass but isn't really all that representative of the Horde (and almost defected to Alliance in MoP). As of now the Horde is basically a Thrall faction - lose him and they'll lose any sense of identity whatsoever.

Baine's not just a damsel in distress, he's a traitor that has never ever with the Horde ever, especially the tauren.

He literally breaks Horde oaths just to prevent tauren from defending against hostile Alliance soldiers invading their land.

Go figure, Alliance players that endorse tauren genocide and talk about how the poor warcriminals of Bael Modan are such defenseless victims love this disgrace to the tauren and everything they stand for.

[Shadowferal]

Go figure, Alliance players that endorse tauren genocide and talk about how the poor warcriminals of Bael Modan are such defenseless victims love this disgrace to the tauren and everything they stand for.

The peaceful spiritual Tauren have very little standing in regards to to the warlike orcs. And really shouldn't want anything to do with goblins.

[Nymrohd]

What was the alliance supposed to do? They created effectively a wellfare state to help keep the orcs alive.

March the orcs through the dark portal and then spend enough money to barricade that shit. Don't built a fortress overlooking it at a distance, build a fortress around it. Mages, archers, cannons aimed at the entrance so the moment something steps out it's toast. All the while research how to shut the portal down.

[Jshadowhunter]

Sorry, but it's the current year and we can't have aggressive, war-based and cunning people be portrayed in a good light.

[Nymrohd]

Thrall is literally the only leader the Horde has left from the WC3 era, and he in a way embodies the 'noble savage' styled Horde that we had from Vanilla up to Wrath.

Well that style was dubious in Vanilla (where the Forsaken were full on monsters) or TBC (where the blood elves were torturing Naaru for power and sucking on fel). It was very much dead on Wrath when the orcs decided to attack the Alliance from behind when they had just defeated the Scourge in Icecrown's first gate, getting everyone killed in the process and raised by the Scourge and called it GLORIOUS)
I am a huge fun of the idea of a tribal honorable Horde. Imo it would require for the Forsaken and Blood Elves to never be members of the Horde (and instead get the goblins under Gazlowe and Ogres under Rexxar earlier). If that Horde needed a stronger conflict bait since no Forsaken, give them motherfuckin Zul'jin and the Forest Trolls.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, but it's the current year and we can't have aggressive, war-based and cunning people be portrayed in a good light.

It is what it is. For me the Alliance story arc DIED in BfA when we get back from Zandalar (which was stupid already) and after murdering the king and civilians which really did not serve any purpose, Genn and Jaina enter Anduin's presence and get Care Bear Stare'd into pacifism. Losing is the new winning