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  1. #21
    One of the reasons why I quit raiding.
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  2. #22
    Raiding (particularly mythic) has always been and will always be a huge commitment. That hasn't changed. What changes is your life, your responsibilities, and your feelings about committing to it.

    When I was in HS and college I could afford to spend a ton of time playing an MMORPG and committing to schedules like that. Now I choose to spend my limited free time on other things and have more responsibilities.

  3. #23
    I am Murloc!
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    Schedule anything sucks unless you're making a living from it, and you won't really know that feeling until you go back to not having a schedule. I raided from 15 years straight and only stopped near the end of BFA. Not because I disliked the content, but because scheduling made you feel really obligated to always be there or plan around (especially when you're a RL/GL, or one of two tanks). Yeah, I know you can have others pick up the load but there's a certain sense of needed to be there that always comes with it. At a certain point you just grow tired of planning get togethers, let alone vacations around your raiding time, which is a big reason why I stopped.

    It's still one of my favorite things to do in the game though. If 10 man raiding was still a thing like it was in Cataclysm/MoP, I'd probably still raid routinely because it's very likely I could find 10 people who think the same as me, and there was plenty of guilds that operated like that during that time period. You wouldn't need a strict schedule, can operate with exactly 10 (with people doing flex roles on alts), and most wouldn't care if you raided less one week but more one week. With 20 or 25 man (at the time), that wasn't exactly feasible, and pretty hard to find that many extra people who wouldn't mind changing the schedule up depending on who is around.

    One thing I really hated about raiding more than anything else and a lot of other GMs can probably attest to this, but if you're in the type of guild that clears content 2-3 months before the next patch (or 5-6 months before the next expansion reveal) is just keeping everything going until the next expansion. It's incredibly difficult when I was raiding mythic, or 25 man raids to get everybody on board with the 'lets take a break' until next patch or log on farm the two mounts for the expansion then log off. You get multiple people who want to parse and push parsing strategies on you, in addition to those that literally want to clear the raid every week to finish out their 'BiS', so they can level faster in the next expansion or something. I fully get farming out mounts for people (I don't care about mounts), but everything else is just meh. When I did 10 mans in Cataclysm, once we got the last of our mounts the entire crew of 11 people decided to stop raiding until MoP. Guess what? Every single person except one came back. I knew when transforming my raid into a static 20 man Mythic when WoD came out would require me to keep people entertained, otherwise it would be a mass recruiting campaign at the start of the expansion.

    The progression aspect I find fun. Not knocking people for wanting to clear raids every night during deep farm, but you're trying to appease two different groups of people.

    Raiding could probably be more flexible and people will come in here (rightfully so) disagreeing with this take, but that's my opinion on it. It's still one of the best things about the game and I feel like more/more people will eventually reach that conclusion eventually. I'm pretty sure most of the OG guys I played Vanilla with would've straight up quit if they continued with 40 mans going into TBC.

  4. #24
    Personally, I think it's fun for like 2-3 weeks per tier and then I just start dreading it. It's not fun at all to get off work and then almost immediately have to show up for a 4ish hour slog through bosses you've already seen and like a solid hour of trash.

    At least with mythic+ I can just choose whether I'm even going to play on a given night. If I want to do a few runs when I finish work, I can play for a couple hours then log off. If not, I can just not and I don't have to worry about upsetting 19 other people
    Last edited by bmjclark; 2022-10-21 at 02:10 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by BetrayedOf52 View Post
    Raiding is by far the most enjoyable thing in WoW to me, the introduction to Mythic + has helped a lot but I still think raiding has something about it, that no other aspect of the game can accomplish. But something about committing to a schedule while in a life already filled with scheduled things is hard to commit to. I understand 100% that this is a "me" problem. I find raid teams I can make the times no problem, it's late enough that all my daily responsibilities are done and the chances of something coming up are low. I find teams I get along with, and I also consider myself a pretty good player. I can keep up with whatever the expansion calls for whether it's AP, Renown, Azerite power, etc. I actually get a decent amount of time to game in the early morning and at night.

    But for some reason I always end up quitting a month into a guild and just pugging the entire expansion, I'll do mythic + with my friend group and pug heroic raiding to see all the content. Is anyone else like this?

    The only thing I can see that bothers me is the skill level I play at, which is AOTC early on, and then attempting as much mythic raiding as we can usually 50% of the tier ends up draining me, because there's never such a thing as a break or farm content. And I see this early on and feel like id rather be doing something else in WoW with my friends like mythic + or heroic pugging, instead of pushing mythic raid bosses not created for the majority of the population for the next 6 months at night.
    Definitely me. There comes a day where I just don't want to play.

    Heroic just gets really boring because your skill and gear doesn't really matter after a certain point, and mythic is unpuggable even with cross realm due to encounter complexity and coordination/handy notes required to handle mechanics. So there's really no point in playing retail.

    The guild I'm in as a casual runs mythic and usually comes close to cutting edge, but honestly it sounds like a miserable slog. They spend a couple months getting geared, then they just have an extended lockout for like 3 or 4 months trying to get as deep into mythic as they can. Mythic has things like "200 pull bosses". If you raid 6 hours a week, and it takes 200 pulls, and each pull is 10 minutes, you're spending 5 and a half weeks pulling the same goddamn boss. That just sounds horrendous. No thank you.
    Last edited by SpaghettiMonk; 2022-10-21 at 02:35 AM.

  6. #26
    To me games are something for me to enjoy in my own time, when games start bossing me around i walk away. Raiding is like that and i have a hard time getting into it but when i do i really enjoy it. Its not really something that is as much fun when pugged and getting 25 people around at the same time is frustrating.

    so yes i agree.

  7. #27
    So basically you want other people to commit their time for you but you dont want to do the same for them. It doesnt work that way.
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  8. #28
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    One great thing from cross-realm Premade Group Finder is the ability to attempt to join raids on your time.


    But that’s why I say “attempt” because you go into that decision with the knowledge that there is a chance you won’t be invited, the raid doesn’t go anywhere, and/or you experience toxicity from internet randoms.


    All of which that can be avoided by committing time to a consistent raid team (or guild) and raid schedule.
    Having options is amazing.


    Pick your poison.

  9. #29
    I usually raid parallel on the offdays from my sports club, 3 evenings/week and can enjoy that for months (depending on the raid content and context ofc., 9.1 was garbage.)

    The alternative would be puging which is a fat no for me, too time wasting, too many bad players, forget getting CE with that.
    Last edited by Caprias; 2022-10-22 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #30
    I've committed to prioritizing real life over video games at all times, and with my family's plans being as wishy-washy as they are, often inviting to events on the day of, sometimes even with a couple hours notice at best, it's hard for me to ever commit to scheduled raiding.
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  11. #31
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    When I was in high school, college, and doing my first job in security I absolutely loved raiding. At 33 with a girlfriend, pets, my career which involves shift work, there is no time to do dedicated raiding. Which is why I'm glad I can do M+ to a high level and maintain decent gear.

    Even if I worked an 8 to 4 job, I can say I'd want to sign up for raiding. It's nice having the evenings open in case I want to see or hang with family/friends, do something spontaneous with my woman, or just mellow out with our pets. Raiding giving me that sense of obligation that Tuesday and Thursdays I need to be on 7pm to 11pm just sort of puts me off.

  12. #32
    It's quite simple for me....life happens. Out of nowhere, something will invariably come up that will interrupt a raid time. Someone who's life priorities are messed up, will say, "sorry babe, I gotta play a video game", whereas folks firmly rooted in reality, will not.

    I hate being the guy that constantly cancels, or is late to raid -- that's not fair to the other people on the team either. The simplest solution, is to just not raid on an organized schedule. This is why LFR has been so great for me. I can queue a wing at a time, and if something happens unexpectedly, I simply drop the group. No big deal.

    I will never understand how people's lives must be so static, dull and boring, that they can commit to raid times. If you're single, without kids, I get it. But it's always funny seeing the losers chime in saying they have kids, a wife, and a career, and still commit to an organized raiding schedule. It's like...tell me you're a loser putting video games before RL, without telling me you're a loser putting video games before RL.
    Last edited by ablib; 2022-10-22 at 04:49 PM.

  13. #33
    What you COULD do is to practically "solo" it as far as you could. I figured out that this game is extremely easy to clear Heroic raiding as a solo user if you know very well how to create pugs (but VERY well (meaning: you are very quick at picking based on logs and NOT ilevel)).

    But there is the gigantic overarching problem of having too much grinding and that in itself is a no-no for adults who value their time so any solution to this problem requires first to remove any mundane grinding from PvE (e.g. equalize the gear at most after ~5man normal).

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BetrayedOf52 View Post
    Raiding is by far the most enjoyable thing in WoW to me, the introduction to Mythic + has helped a lot but I still think raiding has something about it, that no other aspect of the game can accomplish. But something about committing to a schedule while in a life already filled with scheduled things is hard to commit to. I understand 100% that this is a "me" problem. I find raid teams I can make the times no problem, it's late enough that all my daily responsibilities are done and the chances of something coming up are low. I find teams I get along with, and I also consider myself a pretty good player. I can keep up with whatever the expansion calls for whether it's AP, Renown, Azerite power, etc. I actually get a decent amount of time to game in the early morning and at night.

    But for some reason I always end up quitting a month into a guild and just pugging the entire expansion, I'll do mythic + with my friend group and pug heroic raiding to see all the content. Is anyone else like this?

    The only thing I can see that bothers me is the skill level I play at, which is AOTC early on, and then attempting as much mythic raiding as we can usually 50% of the tier ends up draining me, because there's never such a thing as a break or farm content. And I see this early on and feel like id rather be doing something else in WoW with my friends like mythic + or heroic pugging, instead of pushing mythic raid bosses not created for the majority of the population for the next 6 months at night.
    I get where you're coming from.
    I like raiding as well, though i wouldn't say i love it more than other parts of the game.
    That honor goes to proper world-exploration, world-pvp, pvp in general (insofar that it is puggable), megadungeons, good solo content like Visions of N'zoth and proper quests... honestly raiding's pretty low on the priority list, just below the repetitive slog that is m+ and far below endlessly repeating grinds that lock something i want, whether they be of mobs, world quests or otherwise.
    And that's raiding where i can start raiding at like heroic level, i have no stomache for "progressing" the same raid more than twice.

    What was the question again?
    Oh yeah schedules suck, honestly every highest-level content should have an automated group / raid finder, that'd be so convenient.
    Seriously people that get anal about such things are the reason we can't have nice things.
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  15. #35
    It's possible to play with a guild while having to to be flexible with your schedule. Plenty of guilds where it's largely gonna be the tanks/healers/a few specific DPS who always show up with the rest of the roster comprised of people with varying levels of availability - some are most nights, some are one night a week, some are a handful of random nights across the xpac, etc, etc.

    Just talk with a guild about what it's like there and what you're looking for / need, you shold able to find something that works for you.
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    It's possible to play with a guild while having to to be flexible with your schedule. Plenty of guilds where it's largely gonna be the tanks/healers/a few specific DPS who always show up with the rest of the roster comprised of people with varying levels of availability - some are most nights, some are one night a week, some are a handful of random nights across the xpac, etc, etc.

    Just talk with a guild about what it's like there and what you're looking for / need, you shold able to find something that works for you.
    Problem with all those guilds is that they are inevitably extremely casual and hence what bosses they pull are usually (excessively) low difficulty; that's because you can't grind on a boss for months or weeks and then have the gear be "lost" to people that are gone; so the overall gear quality and progress of such guilds are garbage and they always end up to low difficulty bosses (compared to other guilds at least).

    The problem will be alleviated if they equalize the gear after a point. E.g. after gearing with ~normal 5man: anything you do after it is mainly difficulty-raised so it's still hard to do mythic raiding: but: you don't have to grind for gear.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Problem with all those guilds is that they are inevitably extremely casual and hence what bosses they pull are usually (excessively) low difficulty; that's because you can't grind on a boss for months or weeks and then have the gear be "lost" to people that are gone; so the overall gear quality and progress of such guilds are garbage and they always end up to low difficulty bosses (compared to other guilds at least).

    The problem will be alleviated if they equalize the gear after a point. E.g. after gearing with ~normal 5man: anything you do after it is mainly difficulty-raised so it's still hard to do mythic raiding: but: you don't have to grind for gear.
    I guess it depends on one's parameters. My guild gets progressively more casual the older we get and more real-life responsibilities we have. Looking back at our kill dates, this xpac we've gotten AOTC between 2 and 3 months each tier (and we got a couple mythic kills before AOTC in Nathria and Sanctum, three mythic kills each by the end ... although unfortunately none in Sepulcher).

    After we get as far as we can we'll farm raid and keystones for a bit to gear up and hang out, and when things are stalling out we call it break time until next tier. During the end-of-xpac drought that'll be a few months off. Shadowlands was a bit different with this Season 4, but last week was our last week until Dragonflight.

    And I know there are plenty of guilds who are in a similar boat, maybe they're getting AOTC a bit later or a bit sooner, maybe getting a couple more or couple fewer mythic kills in. I know lots of guilds are of similar progress and just keep farming the entire tier but they're not the only ones out there. But even those have people who come and go.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    So basically you want other people to commit their time for you but you dont want to do the same for them. It doesnt work that way.
    Haha, true and real. This is basically "I wanna play this time consuming game but I have only 39.3 minutes to play per week"- the thread. This is how LFR got started and look how that turned out.

    Also if you dont have enough time to do what you want maybe reconsider your life choices. We will all be dead soon and nobody will ever care how much of a hard worker you were.

    If WoW is not a priority for you then why should you get the same amount of fun, enjoyment and rewards out of it as people for which it is a higher priority?

  19. #39
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    The inability to commit to a schedule, raiding specific days per week, is essentially why I had to step down from raiding in WoD and take a much more casual approach to WoW as a whole. Real-life commitments, especially my work, just became such that I could no longer volunteer my time in such a way, making my attendance for raiding spotty and unreliable. MMOs are a young person's game, I suppose - and now I only do some low-key and casual Mythic+ with friends, and my raiding experience is largely limited to LFR, and that is usually just to take in the story and/or for xmog purposes.
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  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Now imagine if your preferred role is tanking. Raiding guilds will naturally expect tanks to have near perfect attendance.
    This and in my last raiding guild people changed mains or wanted to try other classes, but nope as a tank, I was expected to be there on my tank and gear their alts. Eventually, enough was enough, and that was that. I was planning on looking for a new guild in SL but just didn't care for the expac. I'm content with just doing normal as well which seems to be hard to find. Oh and I hate M+ so that was also something I was constantly asked to do, and yes I said no, but it got annoying.

    I think part of the issue for me is also bosses now have mechanics for the sake of it. Or maybe I'm losing focus as I get older.
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