Why Is Blizzard Always At War With The Playerbase!?

[Aucald]

No, you misunderstand.

The long term and core design remains the same and the "user" gets ignored, but things are added to make his life easier same as with any program with a different audience but down to what the developer deems as acceptable to do, anything beyond that is usually up to the external developers/programmers since its written in things that can be modified for the client to pay for his dumb as fuck "users", but games dont really got that far :P

Hence the gear chase part remained as it is and hasnt changed since the start but many things were added or dumbed down to make it easier for the average user.

If things are being added to make life easier, then the user isn't being ignored unless the user base never asked for things to be easier, which most definitely isn't the case for WoW. Though in this case "easy" is probably better termed as less janky and poorly implemented, as was the case with vanilla WoW and TBC. I'll agree that new avenues for attaining gear have been added, of course, but I'd say that's actually a net positive for the game overall - giving some subsets of players a means of alternative if limited progression changes nothing for the majority of players unless you define your niche in the game by exclusivity instead of personal achievement (e.g. you can't be happy winning and you need other people to actively lose).

In terms of your anecdote above, I think that's a pretty cynical standpoint, but it is what it is. Applications should be intuitive and easy to use, not arcane and impenetrable without specialized training, most especially if you want your application to sport a diverse user base assuming it's not already a specialist tool specifically for specialists. I actually work in UX design for web applications in my real-world career, and there are a lot of engineers who have similar mindsets to yours, taking pride in piling on complexity as some kind of challenge to users (often spoken with a sneer), as opposed to creating fluent and accessible interfaces that are a breeze to use. That kind of mindset doesn't tend to last long in the business of application development, though; customers don't want it, and their peers are often forced to go back and redesign their work which just creates more work for everyone.

[potis]

I actually work in UX design for web applications in my real-world career, and there are a lot of engineers who have similar mindsets to yours, taking pride in piling on complexity as some kind of challenge to users (often spoken with a sneer), as opposed to creating fluent and accessible interfaces that are a breeze to use. That kind of mindset doesn't tend to last long in the business of application development, though; customers don't want it, and their peers are often forced to go back and redesign their work which just creates more work for everyone.

I just didnt get my point across as specifically as i wanted.

My point is that the program i am talking about is already dumbed down for the basic user, but it cant get more dumbed down without destroying the core of it just because someone is extra stupid, its simply not possible cause then it loses the depth and customization it provides for the serious companies, the multi-million ones, its quite simple, it has nothing to do with bad design or sneering developers, the program is gaining monopolization (for my country speaking people) cause its written properly to produce reports that other programs cant with their archaic/wrong/weird design.

Thats what i meant and how i mean with WoW, despite the requests for freebie gear, the community gets ignored in that department because its -the core of the game-, and other things are added above it.

What they have shown the last 10 years of people screaming dear murder about freebie gear is that they dont give a fuck about that discussion but they are wiling to bend to create paths towards it, since it helps with the fact its still a game, and a company, and they are aiming for $.

Thats the core part i am talking about.

[Aucald]

I just didnt get my point across as specifically as i wanted.

My point is that the program i am talking about is already dumbed down for the basic user, but it cant get more dumbed down without destroying the core of it just because someone is extra stupid, its simply not possible cause then it loses the depth and customization it provides for the serious companies, the multi-million ones, its quite simple, it has nothing to do with bad design or sneering developers, the program is gaining monopolization (for my country speaking people) cause its written properly to produce reports that other programs cant with their archaic/wrong/weird design.

Thats what i meant and how i mean with WoW, despite the requests for freebie gear, the community gets ignored in that department because its -the core of the game-, and other things are added above it.

What they have shown the last 10 years of people screaming dear murder about freebie gear is that they dont give a fuck about that discussion but they are wiling to bend to create paths towards it, since it helps with the fact its still a game, and a company, and they are aiming for $.

Thats the core part i am talking about.

I think Blizzard already knows that feedback like "I want freebie gear" is already bad feedback on its face, so it kind of gets ignored out of hand. This isn't any kind of money-grubbing agenda on the part of the developers, but rather an acknowledgment that giving away gear for free short-circuits the actual point of the game and makes it pointless. Even if WoW was completely free and unsupported by MTX or ads; if they gave away a full mythic set for every character that just logged in then the vast majority of players would play for a little while and then quit en masse. The progression through the leveling content and then the end-game content to acquire new gear and gain more power is key to the entire RPG genre, alongside a story in a setting that holds the interest while you're doing that. Cut down one of those pillars and you're not left with a structure that can support itself.

Needless to say, this isn't the developers being "at war" with the player base, by any means. Not all feedback is made equal, and that's regardless of what subsection of the player base it comes from.

[Celement]

I think Blizzard already knows that feedback like "I want freebie gear" is already bad feedback on its face, so it kind of gets ignored out of hand. This isn't any kind of money-grubbing agenda on the part of the developers, but rather an acknowledgment that giving away gear for free short-circuits the actual point of the game and makes it pointless. Even if WoW was completely free and unsupported by MTX or ads; if they gave away a full mythic set for every character that just logged in then the vast majority of players would play for a little while and then quit en masse. The progression through the leveling content and then the end-game content to acquire new gear and gain more power is key to the entire RPG genre, alongside a story in a setting that holds the interest while you're doing that. Cut down one of those pillars and you're not left with a structure that can support itself.

Needless to say, this isn't the developers being "at war" with the player base, by any means. Not all feedback is made equal, and that's regardless of what subsection of the player base it comes from.

It's the bit about the side systems like alternative power you are either overlooking or ignoring.

It's the desire to stretch out sub time that is the issue. Gear is trivial.

[adamap]

Because Blizzard kept using vocal minority diehard to justify their own incompetence to create good game.
It is very interesting that they blame downfall of wow from feature coming from the peak of wow era, WOLTK, RDF.
Those current blizzard engineers cannot figure out and reproduce the success of their predecessors, so they just resort to those
ambiguous terms to cover their incompetence.

let's looks at what changed over the years under the name of "social interaction"

1. harder dungeon from beginning of Cataclysm, failed experiments and dungeon were nerfed badly later.
at one time, blizzard almost enjoyed using wrath babies to insult their playerbase. Now once again, they are playing this trick of RDF removal.
2. no flying, failed, see all store sell flying mounts, I would respect them more if they make all store selling mounts not flyable
same goes to level boost, yes it is more social interaction and need more efforts than playing in RDF.
3. world pvp, warmode/pvp island, failed to oblivion
4. make player to earn reward, translation => make game excessive grindy and time gating, failed
5. make player walk to M+ dungeons as if it can help social interaction, laughable
6. make raider harder, see what happened in SL, raider population dropped badly, I know, I know it is due to effortless M+ 15 gear, lol
7. make gap between single player gear and group (M+/raid/pvp) gear larger. profession is basically useless.

It is almost funny to see after all those changes, retail wow still plummeting, and they just kept spinning of "social interaction", example, Jigglesworth mount by any definition, LFR is still group effort, even half LFR is afk, still need the other half of raid to get it done.
Again, blizzard surely enjoying this kind of nonsense. and gold selling raid boost is surely more social interaction then LFR.

look at Woltk classic, they think they know better and come up with secret sauce of heroic+, gear lvl changes,
lol, Woltk success came from engaging story, easy to access content not due to gear treadmill design in retail. But of course, that is the only trick those blizzard engineers know now to design wow centered around.

[Aucald]

It's the bit about the side systems like alternative power you are either overlooking or ignoring.

It's the desire to stretch out sub time that is the issue. Gear is trivial.

Which, again, strikes me as a needlessly cynical viewpoint. It seems as if you've arbitrarily decided the devs are the "enemy," and ascribed their goals to the basest or lower denominator of motivations, that of greed without thought. Now I'm not going to say capitalism isn't a factor in play, because it is, but I don't think it's the *only* factor in play, nor am I so jaded that I think the developers, artists, writers, and other staff who work for Blizzard aren't A.) interested in and proud of their work for its own sake, and B.) sincerely invested in trying to create a game that people enjoy, both because of point A and because, in the long run, that's really the best way to make a profit in the end.

In my view, the desire to "stretch out sub time" really translates to the desire to create more actual game for people to enjoy, not a foreshortened leap to a finish line that leaves the player bored in the horse latitudes and waiting for the next content patch. Mind you, their approach to the goal is not always perfect, such as with artificial time gates that don't truly create more content but render it present but inaccessible until an alarm goes off on the servers. Progression systems like AP, Covenants, and the like aren't that, though; they're linear progressions that require player skill and playtime commitments to achieve. That's not really a bad thing on its face, not unless it's implemented shoddily, and YMMV on the score.

This discussion is also kind of far afield from the point of the thread, which concerns player feedback and its impact on the development process.

[potis]

Needless to say, this isn't the developers being "at war" with the player base, by any means. Not all feedback is made equal, and that's regardless of what subsection of the player base it comes from.

Ding ding.

Have been saying this for years but people on here especially with all the bubbles of WoW hate dont like hearing it.

But the developers do fuck up because they do pick a subsection of the player base when they want to do some change , combine with the "How are we gonna timegate it this time" and you have failure, but its more like 90% player created rather than what people believe is all about MAUs or you could blame the developers at 100% from listening to that subsection from the start, not sure who is to blame

Timegating content hasnt been any different for years, it has actually become much easier in SL, having to farm 50 days of dailies which if you miss a day for IRL you delay it even more, or having to do a raid for 5 weeks for some "piece" or "soul" aint any different from simply waiting for it to unlock at Wednesday so the thing about MAUs barely makes any sense in the end, but i am pretty positive someone that didnt do dailies cause he is bored of them, doesnt care to sub a bit longer for a story line so it does probably work.

Which is as i have been saying, maybe in an offensive way, the opinion of 99% of the player base (the total player base the last 17 years) does not matter since they do not even play the game properly (the core of it at any sense) the same way the average secretary doesnt get a say about how the ERP is gonna be designed because she is too stupid to learn 2 clicks.

[rrayy]

You're one of those then who tries to discredit people making statements that are clearly anecdotal by asking for something that you know cannot be provided, therefore thinking that wins you the debate.

Ok then.

Well by my account, most of Asmongolds viewers agree broadly with what he says,

And I can stop right there since citing a Youtubeer means you don't have a point of your own. He will say whatever he has to in order to get clicks, views and subs. Negativity sells and for that I do not take anything that comes from that seriously, especially when following someone does not mean they automatically agree with him. You are basically citing numbers and automatically claiming they agree with you. That is not how this works at all.

[Aucald]

Ding ding.

Have been saying this for years but people on here especially with all the bubbles of WoW hate dont like hearing it.

But the developers do fuck up because they do pick a subsection of the player base when they want to do some change , combine with the "How are we gonna timegate it this time" and you have failure, but its more like 90% player created rather than what people believe is all about MAUs or you could blame the developers at 100% from listening to that subsection from the start, not sure who is to blame

Timegating content hasnt been any different for years, it has actually become much easier in SL, having to farm 50 days of dailies which if you miss a day for IRL you delay it even more, or having to do a raid for 5 weeks for some "piece" or "soul" aint any different from simply waiting for it to unlock at Wednesday so the thing about MAUs barely makes any sense in the end, but i am pretty positive someone that didnt do dailies cause he is bored of them, doesnt care to sub a bit longer for a story line so it does probably work.

Which is as i have been saying, maybe in an offensive way, the opinion of 99% of the player base (the total player base the last 17 years) does not matter since they do not even play the game properly (the core of it at any sense) the same way the average secretary doesnt get a say about how the ERP is gonna be designed because she is too stupid to learn 2 clicks.

I ascribe a difference between time-gating and actual progression related unlocks. Time-gating, in my view, is simply when content becomes accessible after an artificial window of time has passed, which isn't a factor that is in any way controllable by the player. An example of time-gating would be the opening of raids after an expansion or content patch launch, which usually includes a week or two where the raid is present in the game but simply not open. I don't, however, consider an upper bound on a given resource or currency per week or day to be time-gating - I understand where it can be annoying to players who prefer to grind such things, but so long as the max threshold isn't ridiculously low I don't really consider it to be an artificial or arbitrary limit. I find systems like the Renown progression in SL and now DF to be a good compromise between pure time-gating and foisting mindless grinding (nightmares of the Timbermaw rep. from Vanilla comes to mind) on a player. I'm aware that's a position in contention by a lot of players, but it's my subjective take.

And part of what I mean by all feedback not being made equal isn't just about the quality of feedback, though that's also an obvious factor, but rather the domain from which the feedback is being generated. PvP-oriented players aren't going to give stellar feedback about raiding or Mythic+, because that's probably not their focus. Players who like Mythic+ but don't raid seriously are going to give great Mythic+ feedback, but probably little to no feedback on raiding content or PvP. Everyone plays the game with different focuses on the content they prefer, often to the exclusion of other content. But every part of the game needs feedback - unless we want aspects of the game to go away, and that's generally not good. There's a ton of stuff in WoW I personally don't care about, like PvP for instance (I burnt myself out on it back in TBC when Arenas got introduced), and do very little PvP in the game. But I don't think PvP is unimportant to the many players who focus on it, and my hope is that they're out there running the numbers and offering feedback to the developers on what needs to be improved and where.

[Lolites]

It is almost funny to see after all those changes, retail wow still plummeting

its almost funny to see people pretend to see wow plummeting when we have no playercount since wod and every expansion after that sold better than previous...
ofc wow doesnt have the same numbers as it used to, in its prime, which is mostly due to AGE of the goddamn game... for 18y old game with subscription wow is doing really well, even if its at lowest guess (bcs we dont have anything else) that puts it at roughly 1.5m players (with peaks for every expansions, as those we know of), for game thats going on for almost 2 decades, thats terrific...
hell most of the competition mmorpgs didnt reach that in their best of times, and thats even for buy2play games, let alone sub games...

[potis]

And part of what I mean by all feedback not being made equal isn't just about the quality of feedback, though that's also an obvious factor, but rather the domain from which the feedback is being generated.

Yeah this has been a joke for WoW related forums for at least 12 years by now, and i stand by what i say, and by joke i mean the average player complaining about World First race discussion like it even affects them.

You mean to tell me someone that does only BGs and gets only the shitty starting PvP gear somehow deserves to have an opinion about PvP if he finds himself complaining about something? Not a chance.

Either way, to revert back to the discussion, my point stands, Blizzard fucks up are 100% player generated no matter what another subsection of players thinks, but it reaches such insane fuck up levels because they tunnel vision those people or something now if its developer pride or MAUs, its probably a mixture of all 3.

[Relapses]

Either way, to revert back to the discussion, my point stands, Blizzard fucks up are 100% player generated no matter what another subsection of players thinks, but it reaches such insane fuck up levels because they tunnel vision those people or something now if its developer pride or MAUs, its probably a mixture of all 3.

I mostly agree with you but... which part of the playerbase asked for something like Conduit Energy? lol

[Aucald]

You mean to tell me someone that does only BGs and gets only the shitty starting PvP gear somehow deserves to have an opinion about PvP if he finds himself complaining about something? Not a chance.

Well, I'm not sure I'd put it so darkly or cynically, really. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, so there's not a question of "deserving" an opinion - but again, all opinions aren't made equal, and someone familiar with a given thing is likely to be more informed and knowledgeable about it. That being said, it's entirely possible for someone on the outside looking in to be able to see certain things that someone on the inside of something can't, or isn't inclined to. That kind of feedback can also be quite useful.

Either way, to revert back to the discussion, my point stands, Blizzard fucks up are 100% player generated no matter what another subsection of players thinks, but it reaches such insane fuck up levels because they tunnel vision those people or something now if its developer pride or MAUs, its probably a mixture of all 3.

I wouldn't agree completely with that, either. The developers can and have implemented or planned to implement things that no one asked for, and which failed spectacularly for various reasons. But sure, some developments in WoW are things that players ask for and turn out not to be great. Despite how much the saying has become a meme of late, "you think you do, but you don't" does sometimes hold more than a few grains of truth. But again, even that isn't intended as an attack on the player base - sometimes people (both players and developers) are just wrong, or haven't completely thought out the implications of something they think they want at that time.

[MoanaLisa]

I mostly agree with you but... which part of the playerbase asked for something like Conduit Energy? lol

Who says that Blizzard must have a request from players before they'll put something in? Keep in mind that they are working/planning/designing stuff right now that we won't see for two years or more. There really is no dumber and pointless argument about game development than the question "Who asked for this?"

[Relapses]

Who says that Blizzard must have a request from players before they'll put something in? Keep in mind that they are working/planning/designing stuff right now that we won't see for two years or more. There really is no dumber and pointless argument about game development than the question "Who asked for this?"

My issue was mostly that @potis implied that Blizzard only ever fucks up because of player feedback. That's an obviously egregious oversimplification since the mere existence of things like Conduit Energy prove that they can and will fuck up the game on their own volition.

[potis]

I mostly agree with you but... which part of the playerbase asked for something like Conduit Energy? lol

Actually Conduit Energy -was- the "relief" to what the players requested, remember?

The request that Blizzard focused for SL, was "Classical feeling of RPG choice that matter!" same way Vanilla was, "Hard to retalent! Community! Hard choices that cant be taken back!"

I meant, the fuck up starts 100% because its player requested, how it evolves is a different mentality of multiple things , combination of bad subsection of players with MAUs etc.

- - - Updated - - -

Well, I'm not sure I'd put it so darkly or cynically, really. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, so there's not a question of "deserving" an opinion - but again, all opinions aren't made equal, and someone familiar with a given thing is likely to be more informed and knowledgeable about it. That being said, it's entirely possible for someone on the outside looking in to be able to see certain things that someone on the inside of something can't, or isn't inclined to. That kind of feedback can also be quite useful.



I wouldn't agree completely with that, either. The developers can and have implemented or planned to implement things that no one asked for, and which failed spectacularly for various reasons. But sure, some developments in WoW are things that players ask for and turn out not to be great. Despite how much the saying has become a meme of late, "you think you do, but you don't" does sometimes hold more than a few grains of truth. But again, even that isn't intended as an attack on the player base - sometimes people (both players and developers) are just wrong, or haven't completely thought out the implications of something they think they want at that time.

Same as above, maybe i said it wrongly as usual, but the "Fuck up" is 100% player generated as in started from, how it scales from a "small fuck up" to "Who asked for this?" is a mix of things.

On the opinion part, maybe i am biased by the fact i have played/mentored hundreds of people, spoke and saw hundreds playing WoW of every level and i have seen so many bad players a few years after say some of the dumbest clueless things i have ever heard so i picture them when i read forums and reflect and deny i guess?

The example i gave you for PvP is a guy that eventually worked for the representative of Greece in EU Union and now is some sort of second in command to one of the municipalities here, great guy, intelligent as fuck, biggest keyboard turner i have ever seen, terrible player, at some point tried to complain about PvP balance, no my man, it doesnt matter how well spoken you are, how well you dress and that you are a politician, you are so damn terrible at this game, dont talk about Rogues in BGs.

[Relapses]

Actually Conduit Energy -was- the "relief" to what the players requested, remember?

The request that Blizzard focused for SL, was "Classical feeling of RPG choice that matter!" same way Vanilla was, "Hard to retalent! Community! Hard choices that cant be taken back!"

I meant, the fuck up starts 100% because its player requested, how it evolves is a different mentality of multiple things , combination of bad subsection of players with MAUs etc.

Eh, again that's a bit of an oversimplification. There was a section of the playerbase that wanted more RPG elements in WoW but that doesn't excuse a system that served no purpose other than to annoy players.

[potis]

Eh, again that's a bit of an oversimplification. There was a section of the playerbase that wanted more RPG elements in WoW but that doesn't excuse a system that served no purpose other than to annoy players.

But that is my point, the subsection of players that they at least said they focused on was the RPG feeling, Vanilla, hard choices that matter crowd (It never existed but lets pretend these terrible players somehow did that).

Conduit Energy, being able to slowly over 2 weeks change covenants, was literally the "relief" for the rest of the player base added because the original request would be too hardcore.

It might sound oversimplified but we were there, if you followed the blue posts you would see how it evolved, which is my point also, the problem was 100% player request generated, but they didnt listen to the proper fixes for that terrible system and went for their own "Acceptable for both sides" variation, it was basically a complete fuck up from any way you see it.

The original request should have been ignored, it should have been one massive campaign to last the casuals months, unlocking the talents permanently and conduits etc and they should be a talent slot to play around however the fuck you want, that would have been the optimal thing as requested by the more knowledgeable player base since there would always be a meta therefor the whole original request was just dumb fuckery.

[Relapses]

But that is my point, the subsection of players that they at least said they focused on was the RPG feeling, Vanilla, hard choices that matter crowd (It never existed but lets pretend these terrible players somehow did that).

Conduit Energy, being able to slowly over 2 weeks change covenants, was literally the "relief" for the rest of the player base added because the original request would be too hardcore.

It might sound oversimplified but we were there, if you followed the blue posts you would see how it evolved, which is my point also, the problem was 100% player request generated, but they didnt listen to the proper fixes for that terrible system and went for their own "Acceptable for both sides" variation, it was basically a complete fuck up from any way you see it.

The original request should have been ignored, it should have been one massive campaign to last the casuals months, unlocking the talents permanently and conduits etc and they should be a talent slot to play around however the fuck you want, that would have been the optimal thing as requested by the more knowledgeable player base since there would always be a meta therefor the whole original request was just dumb fuckery.

I understand what you're getting at here but this is just shifting the blame away from developers. It's really weird to say, in hindsight, that Blizzard only listened to the wrong parts of the playerbase whenever they make a controversial (or bad) change to the game. I think the reality is a little bit of Column A and a bit of Column B. Blizzard obviously reacts to player feedback but sometimes in their quest of creating a product that satisfies 100% of the playerbase they end up satisfying nobody.

[Diaphin]

It's probably true that in-game the number of people you interact with socially beyond dungeon instructions and greetings is less than 200 people altogether over a number of years (if that). The rest are complete mysteries as to what their feelings and thoughts might be about the game. Raid and M+ highly-skilled players have no clue what the other 90% of players want because they never really cross paths. You used to get some of that in social guilds but those are difficult to find and often deadly quiet when you do. The number of people who regularly contribute to forums is few enough and even that is vastly over-estimated.

Ion and his team leads listen to high-end players because many of them are or have been skilled (or dedicated theory crafters) for years. They sympathize with their concerns and feel that the content that these players do is more 'important'. Ion has said as much in the past that raiding and PVP are the only important things in the game. I doubt if he's unguarded enough to say that now but that was his public view prior to him becoming game director.

TL-DR: A very limited pool of feedback plus a conscious bias toward content on the part of developers coupled with little real social interaction in game leads to a lot of disconnected noise since most players are siloed off from one another.

- - - Updated - - -



No doubt but see above. It matters a lot as to who they listen to and how strong their confirmation biases are.

To be honest, I think especially when it comes to matters of classes and class design, listening to the high end players first is the reasonable thing to do, as they are the ones to whom the class performing well matters the most and who are engaged and skilled enough in their class to understand it on a deeper mechanical level. At least when it comes to things like how to build talent trees, how classes should perform etc. When it comes to whats fun, tbh, I feel like whats unfun or not seems not to varry that much between high end and casual players, outside of the faction who would be pleased with anything. Many casuals and elites alike seem to deem the momentum build unfun, while with Paladin it seems less of a skill question and more those who enjoy the current melee build and those who want to return to 2007, when Healers would just heal and get the same loot for afking and regging mana half an encounter.

And while it can be bad to only cater towards the hardcore audience and it is a mistake Blizz is prone to make, honestly, casual feedback can be pretty toxic. Look at FF14, where the state of some classes is outright miserable, but due to damage differences being not as big as in WoW, people just claim that everything is fine and dedicated mains are usually shut down with their concerns in favor of people who will always just play what looks the nicest to them, no matter what.

And to be honest, so many of this discussions revolve around getting the highest level gear through casual, non-challenging open world content which is just people demanding stuff for the sake of it, despite them not even needing it and it totally messing up their personal gameplay progression if they ever try out raiding, m+ or pvp content and try to progress in that.

- - - Updated - - -

Eh, again that's a bit of an oversimplification. There was a section of the playerbase that wanted more RPG elements in WoW but that doesn't excuse a system that served no purpose other than to annoy players.

Most such rpg elements do exactly that in a MMO though, thats the core issue of requesting rpg elements, they are often opposed to quality of life as long as it isn't fluff stuff like dialogue boxes. Its the entire reason why Blizzard went away with these things, so there was no other way for shadowlands to end like it did once they listened to the RPG crowd. Its literally a case of we thought we want but we don't. And I mean, classic was basically the same, the product people demanded was not what it actually was and classic basically devolved into casuals having the opportunities to engage in degenerated hardcore playstyles themselves for one time to see how much the game can actually be broken, not this magical fairy tale of wonder and adventure when the game was actually hard and social, lol.