So haven't seen anything, but wanted to check before...

[Ilookfly]

Racials have not mattered since tbc.

Well thats not true at all. In pvp people still play orc for the racial. Rogues even press different buttons in their opener on orcs. In racials still matter. People have swapped several times for specific encounters. Take the entirety of method being trolls for the racial on jaina or not to mention all the goblin swaps for the jump on certain bosses.

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the game should never balanced around those players.....

That does not change the fact that racials do still very much matter.

[Bwgmon]

How much more significant can it get than *checks notes* 200DPS!?

You laugh now, but you'll wipe on Raszageth when she has roughly 12,000 HP left, and you'll be like "Man, if one of our Vulpera were a Zandalari with the Paku racial, the raid would've done about 12,000 more damage over the course of the fight and this would never have happened."

[cuafpr]

Well thats not true at all. In pvp people still play orc for the racial. Rogues even press different buttons in their opener on orcs. In racials still matter. People have swapped several times for specific encounters. Take the entirety of method being trolls for the racial on jaina or not to mention all the goblin swaps for the jump on certain bosses.

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That does not change the fact that racials do still very much matter.

they really don't......

[Ilookfly]

they really don't......

I gave you two examples there where people went out of their way to play a specific race. What more do you need? That is literally proof of that they do matter.

[cuafpr]

I gave you two examples there where people went out of their way to play a specific race. What more do you need? That is literally proof of that they do matter.

They matter to a small part of the game's population, which means overall they don't matter and as is shouldn't impact your character selection unless you are a WF, MDI, or top PVP person.. in which case the game should not be designed/balanced around you.. sorry.

[Ilookfly]

They matter to a small part of the game's population, which means overall they don't matter and as is shouldn't impact your character selection unless you are a WF, MDI, or top PVP person.. in which case the game should not be designed/balanced around you.. sorry.

They matter a lot in pvp still since again, it changes how you play against certain comps. So anything above dog rating and they matter. For pve, if you are someone who likes to do a lot of keys, they matter. If you are someone who raids at a decent level they matter. Saying they dont matter is just plain wrong.

Want another example from recent memory? WW monk the first half of SL. Play anything other than orc and you're doing noticeably worse damage due to racials. Very noticeable on a spec where you frontload as hard as you do on WW monk.

[HansOlo]

Are there any changes coming to racials with dragonflight, before I make my 10th orc for stun redux I just wanted to make sure there wasnt any racial balancing I missed in the myriad of details.

Don't worry. If you are serious enough on pushing ratings - you would do it on a gnome.

[cuafpr]

They matter a lot in pvp still since again, it changes how you play against certain comps. So anything above dog rating and they matter. For pve, if you are someone who likes to do a lot of keys, they matter. If you are someone who raids at a decent level they matter. Saying they dont matter is just plain wrong.

Want another example from recent memory? WW monk the first half of SL. Play anything other than orc and you're doing noticeably worse damage due to racials. Very noticeable on a spec where you frontload as hard as you do on WW monk.

So again you mentioned a smaller portion of the player base as i said... and what is a significant increase? cause the only numbers I've seen are 2-5% which is not significant. I'd wager if Blizz could poll the player the base racials have little to no impact on choice for the bulk of the players.

[FelPlague]

is that why the MDI players and RWF are basically all the same race?

If something gives a 0.1% dps increase, when you are trying to be literally the best player in the world, you will take that increase, but for like 99.99999% of the rest of the players it does not effect you at all.

[Biomega]

and what is a significant increase? cause the only numbers I've seen are 2-5% which is not significant.

If it really was 2-5% of total DPS (and it isn't) that'd actually be very significant. In fact, it'd be massive. Remember, we're talking relative increases here. Most things will be tiny increments - a new item, a better version of an item, etc. are usually far less of a gain than 2-5% percent of total DPS, and the racial would be something you get FOR FREE.

It's difficult to properly evaluate racials, though, because there's so many factors to consider. Sure, you could do a stupid patchwerk sim to get a numerical base line, but that tells you preciously little about actual power. It doesn't properly account for things like movement, for example - the last big racial drama was during mythic Kil'jaeden, where it was ALL about the movement, not about damage (Goblin Jump). How that translates into an advantage would be very difficult and cumbersome to model, and would vary wildly with the scenario in question.

In any event, unless you are actually competing at a world-first level, it's likely that racials are not going to matter (in PvE). They are so far down on the priority list you'll never get to them before you reach world-first level, i.e. fix all the other things first before you worry about racials. Until then, play what's fun for you, and that'll likely give you a lot more overall satisfaction than a DPS increase so small it's indistinguishable from variance.

[Jastall]

Mattering in friggin MDI is meaningless for everyone not in the MDI. Even players in WF don't reroll for racials aside from fringe cases. They may be more important in PvP but I don't know about that.

[Ilookfly]

So again you mentioned a smaller portion of the player base as i said... and what is a significant increase? cause the only numbers I've seen are 2-5% which is not significant. I'd wager if Blizz could poll the player the base racials have little to no impact on choice for the bulk of the players.

First of all 2-5% is massive. That is enough to change a logs ranking by a lot. Secondly, so you're saying it does matter? Since you're actually gaining damage. The amount of people who care has nothing to do with if this matters or not. Read the OP, we're talking about racials and their effect on gameplay. If you want to be a pretty elf and objectively perform worse then no one is stopping you.

[Mysterymask]

Isn't the best racial for Mythic+ Night Elves Shadowmeld cause you can skip entire chunks of the raid?

[Biomega]

Isn't the best racial for Mythic+ Night Elves Shadowmeld cause you can skip entire chunks of the raid?

It depends on the dungeon, and on the comp. NElf can't be all classes. Most notably they can't be Warlocks, and Warlock was giga strong.

In any event, those are VERY specific advantages leveraged in a VERY specific context. It was mostly used in the MDI, and the MDI is its own thing, and isn't exactly representative for anything but the MDI. Even live high keys don't work the way the MDI does. Nothing on live does, really. So it's a silly benchmark to begin with.

[Relapses]

It depends on the dungeon, and on the comp. NElf can't be all classes. Most notably they can't be Warlocks, and Warlock was giga strong.

In any event, those are VERY specific advantages leveraged in a VERY specific context. It was mostly used in the MDI, and the MDI is its own thing, and isn't exactly representative for anything but the MDI. Even live high keys don't work the way the MDI does. Nothing on live does, really. So it's a silly benchmark to begin with.

Eh, there's some credence to NElf's relative value above other racials even on live. You can invalidate entire mechanics like Moroes' bleed, for example. At the upper reaches of play the ability to feign entire boss mechanics is pretty valuable when an extra cast of an ability can be the difference between timing and depleting a key. (Arguably way more valuable than anything a sim will tell you.)

Obviously almost nobody performs at that level but... it can help out even at the lower levels when you know how to use it.

[Biomega]

Eh, there's some credence to NElf's relative value above other racials even on live. You can invalidate entire mechanics like Moroes' bleed, for example. At the upper reaches of play the ability to feign entire boss mechanics is pretty valuable when an extra cast of an ability can be the difference between timing and depleting a key. (Arguably way more valuable than anything a sim will tell you.)

Obviously almost nobody performs at that level but... it can help out even at the lower levels when you know how to use it.

There's no question it's USEFUL, but it's not necessarily the BEST - and certainly not in an all-NElfs-stacking kind of way, the way it's done in some MDI dungeons. And in much the same way, Dark Iron also invalidates certain mechanics etc.

[Aydinx2]

You laugh now, but you'll wipe on Raszageth when she has roughly 12,000 HP left, and you'll be like "Man, if one of our Vulpera were a Zandalari with the Paku racial, the raid would've done about 12,000 more damage over the course of the fight and this would never have happened."

And any raid who sees that and thinks the best solution is to swap races isn't worth raiding with.
There are so many other places where you can get more dps.

[Utrrabbit]

Well thats not true at all. In pvp people still play orc for the racial. Rogues even press different buttons in their opener on orcs. In racials still matter. People have swapped several times for specific encounters. Take the entirety of method being trolls for the racial on jaina or not to mention all the goblin swaps for the jump on certain bosses.

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That does not change the fact that racials do still very much matter.

PvP is unimportant shrill douche content.

The game does not revolve around the .001% of players who do degen things.

Racials have not mattered to 99% of the playerbase (that matters, again pvp is worthless drivel).

[cuafpr]

I

In any event, unless you are actually competing at a world-first level, it's likely that racials are not going to matter (in PvE). They are so far down on the priority list you'll never get to them before you reach world-first level, i.e. fix all the other things first before you worry about racials. Until then, play what's fun for you, and that'll likely give you a lot more overall satisfaction than a DPS increase so small it's indistinguishable from variance.

this is what I'm talking about outside of those people they don't matter and the game should not be balanced around them, thus they don't matter overall.

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First of all 2-5% is massive. That is enough to change a logs ranking by a lot. Secondly, so you're saying it does matter? Since you're actually gaining damage. The amount of people who care has nothing to do with if this matters or not. Read the OP, we're talking about racials and their effect on gameplay. If you want to be a pretty elf and objectively perform worse then no one is stopping you.

They matter to a small part of the player base that the game should not be balanced around.. same thing i've been saying, overall they don't matter.

[Ilookfly]

PvP is unimportant shrill douche content.

The game does not revolve around the .001% of players who do degen things.

Racials have not mattered to 99% of the playerbase (that matters, again pvp is worthless drivel).

So far i have given several pve examples where it matters. You've so far just given me your opinion and numbers pulled from nowhere. It does matter since it impacts results and outcome of gameplay. Your opinion does not matter. Sorry

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this is what I'm talking about outside of those people they don't matter and the game should not be balanced around them, thus they don't matter overall.

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They matter to a small part of the player base that the game should not be balanced around.. same thing i've been saying, overall they don't matter.

Do they impact the outcome of gameplay? Yes. Meaning they have an effect. So they matter in the aspect of gameplay? Yes. Your opinion is irrelevant. They affect gameplay thus matter.

Do they matter to YOU? Thats subjective. Nothing matters if all you do is farm mounts and pet battle.