Justice for Helya.

[Jaggler]

I still don't exactly understand what that violation was. We interact with Helya's successor a lot. Eyir is still the mortal realm, she very much seems to have her full intellect and will, she is still a physical creature and not undead (she did not have to abandon her body). During the Sigrun questline she does not seem to be acting on Odyn's orders, she is willing to reveal information that Odyn would probably never reveal himself. We see Hyrja be turned into a Valkyr and it does not seem traumatic; she is not killed and raised back, she can still move around, interact with her people, maintains her personality etc.


So yeah they just seem to gain wings and extra power?

Hyrja and Eyir both probably were transformed into Val'kyr willingly. Helya was transformed as punishment and basically enslaved to do what Odyn wants until Loken convinced her to turn on him.

IIRC correctly Chonicles stated that he "shattered her physical form". I am sure it's not a pleasant experience.

[Nymrohd]

Hyrja and Eyir both probably were transformed into Val'kyr willingly. Helya was transformed as punishment and basically enslaved to do what Odyn wants until Loken convinced her to turn on him.

IIRC correctly Chonicles stated that he "shattered her physical form". I am sure it's not a pleasant experience.

It just that at the end of the day what Chronicle says is not what is shown in game. Chronicle says that Vrykul would be expected to sacrifice themselves to become Valarjar; what we are shown is that worthy warriors are carried by the Valkyr to the Halls of Valor upon their death; they don't actually have to sacrifice their life. The Chronicle suggests they lose their physical form and become enslaved undead; the game shows them as effectively angelic vrykul that can move between Azeroth and the Halls and maintain their will. The Vrykul of Stormheim seem like a religious society that accepts death and exalts in death in glorious battle but they do so since they have actual evidence that glory in battle leads to eternal life; can any other religion offer that? Vastly better than the Draenei shoving your soul into a robot, that's for sure.

[YogSoggoth]

Y'all dunkin on Odin and that's understandable. The guy's an asshole. But stop treating Helya as some kind of a witless victim - she's done enough shit to become just as irredeemable.

[Jaggler]

It just that at the end of the day what Chronicle says is not what is shown in game. Chronicle says that Vrykul would be expected to sacrifice themselves to become Valarjar; what we are shown is that worthy warriors are carried by the Valkyr to the Halls of Valor upon their death; they don't actually have to sacrifice their life. The Chronicle suggests they lose their physical form and become enslaved undead; the game shows them as effectively angelic vrykul that can move between Azeroth and the Halls and maintain their will. The Vrykul of Stormheim seem like a religious society that accepts death and exalts in death in glorious battle but they do so since they have actual evidence that glory in battle leads to eternal life; can any other religion offer that? Vastly better than the Draenei shoving your soul into a robot, that's for sure.

Yeah, not everything can be shown in-game. If yo only look at the surface level, it doesn't seem bad, utonce you scratch that thin golden layer off, things change quickly.

[Raisei]

So you think it's cool for someone to kill people just because they had a shit life?

Not quite. He think people that kill other people out of cruelty are to be celebrated and should be installed as leaders of the Horde. I am surprised he hasn't vowed to make Helya the next Warchief so she can eat Baine.

[Nymrohd]

Yeah, not everything can be shown in-game. If yo only look at the surface level, it doesn't seem bad, utonce you scratch that thin golden layer off, things change quickly.

Sure not everything can be show in game but this is not a case of them telling us and not showing. They are showing, just what they are showing is different. We are shown Vrykul culture a LOT. And Odyn is not depicted positively in much of it so it's not like there is a bias; the Sigryn questline is quite damning and yet Eyir is shown to forgive a full rebellion against Odyn and even reward it.

And there is nothing redeemable about Helya in game.

[Zendhal The Black]

As a warrior, I hate that flaming one eyed fuck from Legion day one

[Hyrican]

welcome. the world is grey. If one side is doing something evil, the other is not automatically good.

[VinceVega]

As it seems. Odyn was a lying idiotbag and did nothing but keep the mortal in the dark about pretty much everything. He is the true villain of this game and the entire community owes Helya an apology for treating her like that. Helya should be made much more sympathatic since all she wanted is to get back at the prime designate for twisting and torturing her. When will give Blizzard us the opportunity to get quests from her and hunt down Odyn?

That he is an arrogant dipshit was never really a secret... even in legion.

Villian seems a bit... harsh though.

Helya had a shitty card delt. But her reactions and subsequent actions made her into a standard villian.

If someone is bad towards you does not make it ok to kille everyone else and condemn them to eternal suffering.

[Jaggler]

Sure not everything can be show in game but this is not a case of them telling us and not showing. They are showing, just what they are showing is different. We are shown Vrykul culture a LOT. And Odyn is not depicted positively in much of it so it's not like there is a bias; the Sigryn questline is quite damning and yet Eyir is shown to forgive a full rebellion against Odyn and even reward it.

And there is nothing redeemable about Helya in game.

I don't really see how Sigryn and Eyir come into play here.

I am just talking about what we know about Helya and Odyn. The point is, that Odyn was a fucking monster in what he did to her. That doesn't justify her actions of course but that is just indisputable fact.

Y'all dunkin on Odin and that's understandable. The guy's an asshole. But stop treating Helya as some kind of a witless victim - she's done enough shit to become just as irredeemable.

Oh yeah. Helya WAS a victim. Once. But it certainly doesn't justify what she is doing now.

[Nymrohd]

I don't really see how Sigryn and Eyir come into play here.

I am just talking about what we know about Helya and Odyn. The point is, that Odyn was a fucking monster in what he did to her. That doesn't justify her actions of course but that is just indisputable fact.

Well I am just questioning what exactly Odyn did to her. Because presumable whatever he did to Helya was also done to Eyir since Eyir now serves the function Helya did as queen of the Valkyra. And Eyir seems to have gotten a pretty decent deal out of it.

I also don't exactly know how the Titanforged Hierarchy works. I mean the way I see it, Helya is given an order by her superior to serve a specific function. So why that order was so burdensome that it deserved insubordination is important. And the fact that the rest of that paragraph in the CHronicle also does not match what we are shown is also important. If I have two sources, one is the Chronicle and the other is the game, I believe the game.

[Jaggler]

Well I am just questioning what exactly Odyn did to her. Because presumable whatever he did to Helya was also done to Eyir since Eyir now serves the function Helya did as queen of the Valkyra. And Eyir seems to have gotten a pretty decent deal out of it.

Because Eyir wanted that and Helya did not. Odyn shattered her body, transformed her spirit and enslaved her to do that, what she spoke out against. That is just horrific. I don't see, why that is so hard to grasp.

I also don't exactly know how the Titanforged Hierarchy works. I mean the way I see it, Helya is given an order by her superior to serve a specific function. So why that order was so burdensome that it deserved insubordination is important. And the fact that the rest of that paragraph in the CHronicle also does not match what we are shown is also important. If I have two sources, one is the Chronicle and the other is the game, I believe the game.

The fact that he is her superior doesn't give him the right to torture and enslave her.

Sigryn and Helya are two very different things. Sigryn came to her senses, purged the fel and was in the end just given a blessing by Eyir. Odyn didn't even interact with her IIRC.

[Nymrohd]

Because Eyir wanted that and Helya did not. Odyn shattered her body, transformed her spirit and enslaved her to do that, what she spoke out against. That is just horrific. I don't see, why that is so hard to grasp.

She seemed perfectly capable of opposing him and sealing him in the Halls of Valor later so how was she enslaved; Loken could not act against Odyn until after he was sealed so that's all her. As for her form, is her current form the one Odyn bestowed upon her or did she gain that form in creating Helheim? Again what happened is problematic either way, but I question the extent.

[Jaggler]

She seemed perfectly capable of opposing him and sealing him in the Halls of Valor later so how was she enslaved; Loken could not act against Odyn until after he was sealed so that's all her. As for her form, is her current form the one Odyn bestowed upon her or did she gain that form in creating Helheim? Again what happened is problematic either way, but I question the extent.

Considering what Odyn had done to her when she first spoke out, i am sure she wouldn't dare speak out again. It was only after Loken approached her, that she saw a way out.

I am sure Odyn didn't turn her into the tentacle monster that she is now, but what exactly her new form was, doesn't really matter. Considering Helheim changed into the dark place it is now due to her own resentment and ire, i am sure her body stated changing as well.

[Aucald]

I still don't exactly understand what that violation was. We interact with Helya's successor a lot. Eyir is still the mortal realm, she very much seems to have her full intellect and will, she is still a physical creature and not undead (she did not have to abandon her body). During the Sigrun questline she does not seem to be acting on Odyn's orders, she is willing to reveal information that Odyn would probably never reveal himself. We see Hyrja be turned into a Valkyr and it does not seem traumatic; she is not killed and raised back, she can still move around, interact with her people, maintains her personality etc.

So yeah they just seem to gain wings and extra power?

Helya didn't want to become a Val'kyr, a being intrinsically tied to the Shadowlands, something entirely different than what she was as a Keeper. Having someone fundamentally alter what you are against your own will is a pretty profound violation, even if the result isn't immediately or entirely detrimental to you. If there was a painful and/or invasive surgery that would let's say, extend your life by 5 years - would you want a random doctor to abduct you in the night and perform said surgery on you without your consent? Eyir volunteered to become a Val'kyr, the same as Hyrja - although in the latter's case a fanatical devotion to Odyn could be seen to cloud her views on the matter.

The ends in this equation do not matter so much as the means, and involuntarily being warped into another classification of being is a profound trauma and violation of one's personhood.

[defibrillator]

Considering that Odyn was right about everything I can't really see why he should suffer any sort of consequences. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder why we aren't beating the living shit out of Helya and people like you, hunting you through every corner of Azeroth until the planet is cleansed of selfish garbage that refuses to do their titan-given duty.

[ABK Morgan]

Yeah but, Helya pushed me off a bridge...

[Grazrug]

Considering that Odyn was right about everything I can't really see why he should suffer any sort of consequences. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder why we aren't beating the living shit out of Helya and people like you, hunting you through every corner of Azeroth until the planet is cleansed of selfish garbage that refuses to do their titan-given duty.

Dude. The Titans are NOT the rulers of the world. The cosmos was created by the First Ones. Just because the golden gods crowed themselves doesn't mean anyone has to respect their authority.

[jackofwind]

Dude. The Titans are NOT the rulers of the world. The cosmos was created by the First Ones. Just because the golden gods crowed themselves doesn't mean anyone has to respect their authority.

Sure, but then you get punished by them. Get on the right side of history buddy.

[Grazrug]

Sure, but then you get punished by them. Get on the right side of history buddy.

I will not. I hate the titans and I will celebrate the day they fall.