Dragonflight - What is the state of Ret

[Reunion]

So I've been maining ret since tbc, and I've been AWOL for most of Shadowlands but was thinking of returning for Dragonflight and wanted to ask the simple question of 'Is Ret good or bad' I know there's still tuning to go etc, but I mostly do mythic+ and am I setting myself up for failure in trying to get groups or what? Apologies I know that this probably gets asked a lot but a lot has changed with the beta so a lot of what I've read is really conflicting or out of date!

[Ravenyx]

Wondering the same. I'm on the verge of playing ret this expansion.

[Gasparde]

Nothing's changed. Exact same toolkit as before (possibly even less).

Still 100% entirely reliant on tuning to be brought. Which, historically speaking, has never happened.

You will be the same middle of the pack spec. You'll still be declined 30 times before getting an invite. Unless they go mental with tuning, you will be the same level of mediocre shit as you've always been with Ret.

[Delever]

So I've been maining ret since tbc, and I've been AWOL for most of Shadowlands but was thinking of returning for Dragonflight and wanted to ask the simple question of 'Is Ret good or bad' I know there's still tuning to go etc, but I mostly do mythic+ and am I setting myself up for failure in trying to get groups or what? Apologies I know that this probably gets asked a lot but a lot has changed with the beta so a lot of what I've read is really conflicting or out of date!

It had good damage up until now but the several rounds of nerfs pretty much are bringing it back to being middle of the pack and with no utility or mobility to be found that other classes with better damage do not already bring, it pretty much lands us on the same spot as we were in shadowlands.

[Fargus]

They're shit.

Go read the DF beta forums and see how many issues there are. Talent trees suck too.

[8bithamster]

They're shit.

Go read the DF beta forums and see how many issues there are. Talent trees suck too.

Except they're not.. unless you see middle of the pack as shit.

[Gasparde]

Except they're not.. unless you see middle of the pack as shit.

Middle of the pack is shit when you're queuing up against 20 dudes playing top of ladder specs.

It doesn't matter that Fury Warriors deal good damage right now. Fucking PuG idiots will still pick the 295 2.1k Warlock over the 303 2.5k Warrior.

Anything below the top is irrelevant because it doesn't matter if you're 5% or 10% behind the top, you'll never be considered over anyone else anyways.

[Delever]

Except they're not.. unless you see middle of the pack as shit.

It is kinda shit though because its middle of the pack without offering anything that other classes that are better dont. And the way it works in WoW.... sadly you will be declined a lot in groups. Its just a shame because at this point I m losing count of how many expansions we have to endure being garbage or middle of the pack before letting the spec shine once.

[Fargus]

Except they're not.. unless you see middle of the pack as shit.

It is shit because that's where ret usually is, despite having gaping problems. If they wanted to make ret really slow, give them something to compensate for that. Oh wait, they don't.

And that is only taking into account dps... in terms of utility and survivability, they're also lacking. The design of ret right now is a farce, has been since Legion.

[Gestopft]

The utility is basically the same plus a battle rez. Saw some heavy damage nerfs recently on Beta so where that brings it down to is still tbd.

[Grapemask]

They're shit.

Go read the DF beta forums and see how many issues there are. Talent trees suck too.

The entire philosophy of the talent tree redesign is what sucks, really.

When Blizzard first introduced the pre-DF talents and took out the trees, their reasoning was that trees were worthless because players just googled the "correct" spec and did that. They were half right; old talent trees were full of things that were not fun or meaningful decisions.

This talent tree feels like the guy who wrote that response decided to Malicious Compliance his critics into agreeing with him. Now there are not only dozens more choices, but they're choices like 5% dot on one ability vs. 5% direct damage on another ability. This is the most Google The Right Answer talent tree Blizzard has ever come up with.

[doodle90]

Why do you mean? Most of the talents change your rotation almost completely. And you also have defensive talent choices for when that matters.... Not everything is about your .0001% leet more dps talent choice.

[Grapemask]

Not everything is about your .0001% leet more dps talent choice.

If it were really just .0001% no one would care. Blizzard has historically never balanced choices that well.

[Raven]

Except they're not.. unless you see middle of the pack as shit.

Yeah but thats how most players seem to think, if your not fotm your shit.

[Gasparde]

Why do you mean? Most of the talents change your rotation almost completely. And you also have defensive talent choices for when that matters.... Not everything is about your .0001% leet more dps talent choice.

It's your opinion that no one cares about.

If you wanna do more than a weekly +15 m+ then community perception is all that matter. And the community conception is and has always been that middle of the pack equals shit.

[roboscorcher]

It is kinda shit though because its middle of the pack without offering anything that other classes that are better dont. And the way it works in WoW.... sadly you will be declined a lot in groups. Its just a shame because at this point I m losing count of how many expansions we have to endure being garbage or middle of the pack before letting the spec shine once.

This is the problem: if Ret has no unique utility, it needs to be upper dps to get invites.

One thing I liked about TBC ret was that each raid wanted one, because Crusader Strike (a Ret only talent) refreshed all judgements on the boss. This was a niche that all mana users appreciated. In Wrath, ret has Replenishment, but it's shared with other specs so Ret is less desired. Paired with the lower-end dps at the 99th percentile, it's harder to justify taking a Ret for competitive raiding.

The Retail devs often say "bring the player, not the class" when removing niche utility for specs, but what it actually leads to is "bring the highest throughput, not the class." Because perfect spec balance is actually impossible, each spec should have its own super-useful raid utility. Or else some specs will always be at the mercy of tuning.

[Delever]

This is the problem: if Ret has no unique utility, it needs to be upper dps to get invites.

One thing I liked about TBC ret was that each raid wanted one, because Crusader Strike (a Ret only talent) refreshed all judgements on the boss. This was a niche that all mana users appreciated. In Wrath, ret has Replenishment, but it's shared with other specs so Ret is less desired. Paired with the lower-end dps at the 99th percentile, it's harder to justify taking a Ret for competitive raiding.

The Retail devs often say "bring the player, not the class" when removing niche utility for specs, but what it actually leads to is "bring the highest throughput, not the class." Because perfect spec balance is actually impossible, each spec should have its own super-useful raid utility. Or else some specs will always be at the mercy of tuning.

Exactly! And currently Paladin in general, not just ret is not that desired. The defacto buff class not desired in groups kinda sits wrong with me. We are back to the same state as shadowlands where you basically want one paladin per raid regardless of spec and that is it. Meanwhile you can again stack warlocks and hunters ad nauseum and thats not an issue apparently.

[Nymrohd]

I think the consensus is that the spec trees are solid but the class tree is trash. My personal gripe is that we are supposed to be a buff class which would lend to a class tree full of possible utility options to offer to the group yet our class tree is extremely lean and throughput focused especially compared to e.g. shaman who had a similar class fantasy of offering buffs to the group/

[Niwes]

dps number wise?
everything is possible, after final numbers tuning. could be 10/10 or 1/10.

talent and rework wise?
the spec with the least investment in transition from old talents to new trees. 1/10 imo.

cmmunity acceptance wise?
- wanted in raids? 3/10
- wanted in m+? 0/10
- stuff brought to the table? 2/10
(or do pals have CR now? then i would rate to 6/10 instead of 2/10)

summary:
all in all Ret „maybe“ not looks shit per se. but one of the most non-meta specs imo.

if you play for fun: play Ret.
if you play with a fixed casual guild: play Ret.
if you play mythic raids or m+ on a competitive level: Be careful, Ret never had good numbers for long. Definitely not meta.
if you play semi competitive in PuG grps (xrealm mythic raids and m+ ~20-22): stay the hell far away from Ret.

at least imo.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

Exactly! And currently Paladin in general, not just ret is not that desired. The defacto buff class not desired in groups kinda sits wrong with me. We are back to the same state as shadowlands where you basically want one paladin per raid regardless of spec and that is it. Meanwhile you can again stack warlocks and hunters ad nauseum and thats not an issue apparently.

Why would you stack hunters? They don't have any group buffs. Only going to get stacked if their dps is overpowered.

Same with warlocks unless you need multiple gates.

- - - Updated - - -

The Retail devs often say "bring the player, not the class" when removing niche utility for specs, but what it actually leads to is "bring the highest throughput, not the class." Because perfect spec balance is actually impossible, each spec should have its own super-useful raid utility. Or else some specs will always be at the mercy of tuning.

I don't think they've said this for like a decade lol.

The utility imbalance is often larger than the DPS one though. Paladin in general and ret in particular has the funny thing of median players and below believing it has "good utility" but in reality nothing in the kit is anywhere remotely as useful as stuff like gates, ring of peace, the 14 different unique rogue abilities, etc

That said, anything that does the most damage will be brought even if it offers nothing else.