[TV] House of the Dragon

[Syegfryed]

Rhaenyra was 100% naive to think it would be safe to le Lucerys go to a place where she knew the greens would go and its worse because she sends then without anything o offer, just to "remember" his father oath, thinking it would be enough.

I think this is also 100% believable since those people are full of themselves

- - - Updated - - -

Well, it happens in the book and we only have the word of "the women" and the old Maljinn, who was responsible for killing the child in the first place with blood magic, so it is not 100% sure, but those people have no reason to lie.
The Maljinn did truthfully answer Danny's other questions and even admitted that the child dying is good because it would have raided, raped and pillaged like Drogho if it grew up. She didn't care what happened to her afterwards, even stating that since Drogho took everything else from her, her life is nothing and in turn that is what her spell gave back to Drogho, life but nothing else, turning him into a vegetable.

Wild, so its indeed due to old sorcery

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Rhaenyra was 100% naive to think it would be safe to le Lucerys go to a place where she knew the greens would go and its worse because she sends then without anything o offer, just to "remember" his father oath, thinking it would be enough.

He would have been safe. Even without an offer... Borros forbid anyone, even Prince Aemond, from attacking Lucerys.

Funny how you people keep ignoring that fact. No one except Aemond would have even harrassed the boy... and even Aemond wasn't intending on killing him... just scaring him.

[Varodoc]

Because that's not what happened. He was only in danger because Aemond was there. Any other situation and he comes home safe and sound.

Rhaenyra knew that the Greens already sent their own to Storm's End so a wiser leader would have assumed Aemond (the main badass of the Green side) could be out in the field. It was a danger that someone wiser would have taken into account. It's all pretty straightforward.

And, No, he simply could have been hit by a lightning strike. That's a pretty big possibility when flying in a storming sky in a place literally called "Storm's End".

I mean, even Jon and Daenerys had a lot of trouble flying when the Night King summoned that big storm at Winterfell, and they were adults and way more experienced than Lucerys.

The only reason you blame Rhanerya is because you love the taste of Hightower anus.

Why do you keep using these disgusting and revolting images? Did your parents never teach you good and polite manners? No wonder you sympathize with Rhaenyra.

Funny of you to state that it's me who has a bias when you look at the highlighted sections.

It's not bias, it's a fact. The episode opens with them being completely unaware that Viserys even died.

If Otto had pulled his Coup off (nice of you to finally admit it was a coup, though)

I never denied it. I'm saying a truth: that a coup doesn't have to be an evil action.

so "flawlessly"

Yes, flawlessly, given how they installed their monarch, got rid of all opposition in the capital, and did this without the opposing side even having a clue.

Rhanys wouldn't have ever made it to Dragonstone

They probably didn't take into account the possibility that Rhaenys is a terrorist, that's true. Although, to be fair, they had her locked inside her apartments so that she wouldn't interfere with anything. But Ser Erryk went rogue and set her free.

and Rhanerya and her entire family would be dead. Otto got thwarted by his own daughter.

He didn't get thwarted, he changed his mind. We don't know if the assassination plot would have failed.

The Green's agents would never have attacked Lucerys while peace was still an option. Borros, even though he was on Team Green, wouldn't even allow Aemon to touch Lucerys.

Clearly the Green agents didn't care about the possibility of peace, since Aemond was harassing and provoking Lucerys. And Borros didn't forbid Aemond from hurting Lucerys, he forbid him from doing it inside his hall. Beyond his hall, Borros didn't give a shit.

I mean, the dialogue is pretty straightforward. From the Greens' perspective, Lucerys is literally going around the country trying to steal their throne. Ofc he was in danger and the Greens would likely be hostile. No one would have even noticed that it was Aemond who killed him if Arrax's remains didn't indicate so clearly that he was eaten by a bigger dragon. It could have easily been arranged to have Lucerys assassinated without the deed being traced back to the Greens. These are all variables that someone smarter would have taken into account.

He was skilled enough to fly to Storm's End from Dragonstone

Which is a very short flight, it's the whole reason why she sent him there. Because it's the shortest fly possible and even an inexperienced kid could do it. It's not a feat of his skill.

and the Storm happened somewhere en route...because there was no storm at Dragonstone.

The place is literally called "Storm's End".

And the Storm isn't what killed him.

If there was no storm, Arrax would have easily outpaced Vhagar. The storm made it much harder to escape (harder to see and to move around and to direct the dragon), as it was visually shown.

[Syegfryed]

He would have been safe. Even without an offer... Borros forbid anyone, even Prince Aemond, from attacking Lucerys.

In his roof yeah, you think there was only that place to attack him. People don't see "messengers" flying in dragons, you cannot possibly know if someone is one

Funny how you people keep ignoring that fact. No one except Aemond would have even harrassed the boy... and even Aemond wasn't intending on killing him... just scaring him.

Funny how you ignore the fact that it was not 100% safe and it was naive to think It would be fine and get the support from the Baratheons without nothing to offer

Even if it wasn't Aemond it could be anything, people could be expecting him to kill him when he approach, he could fell in the storm, he could be hit by a lightning, you always expect the worse and act on it. It was not wise to send valuable assets like this to do such thing and they paid for it, even by acident.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Why do you keep using these disgusting and revolting images? Did your parents never teach you good and polite manners? No wonder you sympathize with Rhaenyra.

Yeah...I sympathize with a mother who just lost her son...instead of blaming her for something she had no control over. That's what my parents would call "good and polite manners". Was it your parents that taught you to enjoy licking out Aemond's asshole?

It's not bias, it's a fact. The episode opens with them being completely unaware that Viserys even died.

Yeah, they didn't have the internet, my dude.

I never denied it. I'm saying a truth: that a coup doesn't have to be an evil action.

You actually have denied it...when you said that Aegon was the rightful heir. If Aegon were the rightful heir...it wouldn't be a Coup.

Yes, flawlessly, given how they installed their monarch, got rid of all opposition in the capital, and did this without the opposing side even having a clue.

Again, No internet.

They probably didn't take into account the possibility that Rhaenys is a terrorist, that's true.

She was a hostage that freed herself.

A terrorist would have fried the Greens.

He didn't get thwarted, he changed his mind. We don't know if the assassination plot would have failed.

He got thwarted. If he got to Aegon before Allicentt...the assassination plot would have been on.

Clearly the Green agents didn't care about the possibility of peace, since Aemond was harassing and provoking Lucerys.

Yes, like I said, the one person in the entire kingdom that would have harrassed Jacerys... harrassed Jacerys. And, again like I said, even he didn't intend to kill him...just scare him.

Which is a very short flight, it's the whole reason why she sent him there. Because it's the shortest fly possible and even an inexperienced kid could do it. It's not a feat of his skill dude.

Never claimed it was. I said it doesn't take a lot of skill to fly to Storms End....you're the one talking about "inexperienced dragonriders"

The place is literally called "Storm's End".

Sure. Like that has anything to do with anything. Once again, they don't have the internet. They can't check the current weather at Storm's End.

- - - Updated - - -

Funny how you ignore the fact that it was not 100% safe and it was naive to think It would be fine and get the support from the Baratheons without nothing to offer

Nothing is "100%" safe. But precautions were taken.

Not getting the support of the Baratheons and Aemond attacking Jaceyrs are two separate things. Rhaenyra was 100% right about how being an Envoy should have protected Jace... it would have under any other circumstance.

Even if it wasn't Aemond it could be anything, people could be expecting him to kill him when he approach, he could fell in the storm, he could be hit by a lightning, you always expect the worse and act on it. It was not wise to send valuable assets like this to do such thing and they paid for it, even by acident.

Again, he was an envoy. House Baratheon and House Targaryen are not at war....they would have no reason to attack him.

[Varodoc]

snip

Okay so your only "argument" left (aside from the usual vulgar obscenities you have resorted to) is "they don't have internet lmao", which is a non-argument. Rhaenyra and co. didn't get any word of what transpired in King's Landing because Otto was quick to get rid of any potential obstacle who could leak everything to Rhaenyra, such as Lord Caswell, who was forbidden from leaving the Red Keep just in time. Had he not done that, those rebellious lords would have spilled everything to Rhaenyra. As for Rhaenys, Alicent was calculating enough to have her locked in her apartments. The only reason why she escaped is because Ser Erryk went rogue and smuggled her out of the Red Keep. Which neither Otto nor Alicent could have predicted, since they concretely lacked the signs to predict that Ser Erryk would turn rogue. The only one who could have known Erryk was going to go rogue would be his twin brother Arryk, who had seen several signs that Erryk didn't like Aegon, and who was literally betrayed when Erryk refused to help him against Cole. So the fault lies with Arryk, who could have reported his brother's treason to Otto and Alicent. At which point, the Greens would have punished Arryk and no one would have smuggled Rhaenys out of the Red Keep.

The reason why it took so long for Dragonstone to hear what happened at King's Landing is not because "no internet lol". It's because Otto did a damn good job at making sure no one could leak their plans outside the Red Keep.

Just like, even without internet, one should be able to tell that a place called "Storm's End" would probably, most likely, presumably have a weather that makes travel via dragon difficult, especially for an inexperienced dragonrider (even experienced dragonriders like Daenerys have a lot of trouble travelling through storms, refer to the Winterfell example I mentioned above).

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Okay so your only "argument" left (aside from the usual vulgar obscenities you have resorted to) is "they don't have internet lmao", which is a non-argument. Rhaenyra and co. didn't get any word of what transpired in King's Landing because Otto was quick to get rid of any potential obstacle who could leak everything to Rhaenyra, such as Lord Caswell, who was forbidden from leaving the Red Keep just in time. As for Rhaenys, Alicent was calculating enough to have her locked in her apartments. The only reason why she escaped is because Ser Erryk went rogue and smuggled her out of the Red Keep. Which neither Otto nor Alicent could have predicted, since they physically lacked the signs to predict that Ser Erryk would turn rogue.

Your argument for the Blacks being "stupid" is that they didn't get instantaneous news of Viserys death...so yeah, I think "no internet lmao" works just fine.

[Varodoc]

Your argument for the Blacks being "stupid" is that they didn't get instantaneous news of Viserys death...so yeah, I think "no internet lmao" works just fine.

I mean, aside from the fact that Daemon was clearly a dumbass when he genuinely thought Otto and Alicent had Viserys killed (when the dude could barely stand up and was pretty much a corpse); a smarter council probably would have kept a closer eye to King's Landing after their dinner in ep.8, since they all knew that Otto and Alicent were scheming (just before that dinner, they had schemed to place Vaemond Velaryon in charge of Driftmark). I'm not saying they should have received the news instantly, obviously, I'm saying that they were completely oblivious, as in they did not even care about what was happening in KL, with Viserys so weak and clearly unable to rule. No spies, no informants, no agents just to keep an eye on the Red Keep, nothing. Just before that dinner, Rhaenyra and Daemon had discovered that the new regime had replaced all Targaryen banners with the symbol of the Faith (a clear powergrabing move, which they also had no idea of btw), so maybe it would have been smart to leave some informant behind, to give word of any further attempt at power-grabbing from the Hightowers, No?

Meanwhile, you presented no argument whatsoever for the Black council being smart.

Maybe the Black council shouldn't let children like Jacaerys talk and propose his laughable ideas. Irl, no head of state would ever listen to a child on important matters.

[Syegfryed]

Nothing is "100%" safe. But precautions were taken.

Something 100% safer would be sending someone else, and he would be fine, obviously.

Not getting the support of the Baratheons and Aemond attacking Jaceyrs are two separate things.

Two separate things that show her naiveness

Again, he was an envoy. House Baratheon and House Targaryen are not at war....they would have no reason to attack him.

The greens are at war with the blacks, they could give two shits about it, you are being as naive as Rhaenyra

[Raisei]

Wild, so its indeed due to old sorcery

There is a chance that it was the effect of the blood magic used by the Maljinn that created the deformities. But it fits a little too well with the Targaryen story, since it was exactly a tail, scales "like a lizard" and "bat-like" wings (which look quite similar to dragon wings).

[Syegfryed]

Also, while we are talking abou the universe, i read the race of men are divided in 3 groups, the andals, first men and Rhoynar, i can definitely see something like Starks being descendants of the first men and all, does we know from what group the Valyrian(targeryan and others) came? was it andals?

There is a chance that it was the effect of the blood magic used by the Maljinn that created the deformities. But it fits a little too well with the Targaryen story, since it was exactly a tail, scales "like a lizard" and "bat-like" wings (which look quite similar to dragon wings).

Did they kill it? i remember the other relates saying they all die in birth, or have some small features of dragons, but nothing so big as having wings.

[Raisei]

Did they kill it? i remember the other relates saying they all die in birth, or have some small features of dragons, but nothing so big as having wings.

Well, the words are "it never lived". It's a bit complicated. Danny basically traded her child's life for Drogho, who is dying from infection. She didn't really understand the sacrifice or at least she told herself that she didn't understand, but the Maljinn called it a "lie she told herself".

The Maljinn is then casting a blood magic spell in the tend with Drogho and says that noone can enter while she does it, since "Death will be in this tent". However shortly after Danny collpases from cramps which might be the baby coming or the spell already taking hold. Jorah can't find anyone else to help her so he carries her back into the tend for the Maljinn to help her. Danny is too weak to stop him at this point and the chapter ends there.
Danaerys later thinks that Jorah probably killed her child by carrying her into the tent with the dark magic going on, but this might be another lie she tells herself. In any case, the child is dead on arrival.
In fact, the Maljinn delivering it says that it looked like it was "dead for years", being already rotten and filled with maggots (a lovely image for sure).

But the question is indeed what would have happened without the blood magic.

[Mhyroth]

Also, while we are talking abou the universe, i read the race of men are divided in 3 groups, the andals, first men and Rhoynar, i can definitely see something like Starks being descendants of the first men and all, does we know from what group the Valyrian(targeryan and others) came? was it andals?



Did they kill it? i remember the other relates saying they all die in birth, or have some small features of dragons, but nothing so big as having wings.

Rhoynar used to live at the river Rhoyne in Essos. They had to flee during a war with the Valyrians and settled in Dorne. That's why Dorne is still at war with the 6 kingdoms and isn't part of it yet.

The Andals were the ones who made a pact with the Children of the Forest and brought the Faith of the Seven into the Realm.

The First Men were (as the name suggests) the first men to inhabit Westeros. They resided mostly in the North so the Starks for example as you pointed out are direct descendants.

People can correct me but that's what I briefly remember. The Wiki will have a lot more information about this.

[Celista]

Sat with episode 10 for awhile. The deviation from the source material in relationship to Aemond's motivation (to bully but not kill Lucerys) did not seem believable to me. The acting and build up seemed to be a desire to cause serious physical harm. The TV series also does not do a great job of explaining why Aemond wants Lucerys' eye, considering an episode or so ago he was telling his mother that the exchange of an eye for a dragon felt fair to him, with his grandfather agreeing with that statement.

Series is still enjoyable but a lot of plot holes/moments of "that doesn't make sense/why not just do x,y,z instead" in comparison to GoT.

As an aside, been playing more VR lately than anything WoW-related (came back for Wolk Classic and then once again remembered I did all of this content before). I recommend Dragonflight on Steam, if you want to play a short VR game where you ride a dragon and blow up stuff (including castles and other dragons). It's free to play, so (in my opinion) worth the short playthrough.

[Syegfryed]

Rhoynar used to live at the river Rhoyne in Essos. They had to flee during a war with the Valyrians and settled in Dorne. That's why Dorne is still at war with the 6 kingdoms and isn't part of it yet.

The Andals were the ones who made a pact with the Children of the Forest and brought the Faith of the Seven into the Realm.

The First Men were (as the name suggests) the first men to inhabit Westeros. They resided mostly in the North so the Starks for example as you pointed out are direct descendants.

People can correct me but that's what I briefly remember. The Wiki will have a lot more information about this.

From what i heard is that those 3 groups were the ones that the race of men diverged, so i wanted to know if valyrian actually fit in those 3 or are just a 4th branch, but they may be Rhoynar taking account the proximity.

And i think who did the pact with the children were the first man.

Sat with episode 10 for awhile. The deviation from the source material in relationship to Aemond's motivation (to bully but not kill Lucerys) did not seem believable to me. The acting and build up seemed to be a desire to cause serious physical harm. The TV series also does not do a great job of explaining why Aemond wants Lucerys' eye, considering an episode or so ago he was telling his mother that the exchange of an eye for a dragon felt fair to him, with his grandfather agreeing with that statement.

Series is still enjoyable but a lot of plot holes/moments of "that doesn't make sense/why not just do x,y,z instead" in comparison to GoT.

But he did say why he wanted his eye though, and it was because Lucerys was acting in "treason" to his king, flying out to get support

[Varodoc]

The show changes actually make the civil war a "tragedy", like GRRM intended. Book!Aemond is just your stereotypical evil crazy psychopath, Show!Aemond doesn't start off as this. Maybe he will become this war criminal in the future, but at the beginning he wasn't out for blood. Hence, it's a tragedy that civil war erupted because of a misunderstanding between the rider and his dragon.

Just like Book!Alicent is just the stereotypical evil powerhungry stepmum; while Show!Alicent sincerely believes that Viserys changed his mind at the end. Hence, it's a tragedy that civil war erupted because Alicent, not knowing about the Conqueror's prophecy, mistook Viserys' dying words for a change of heart.

The civil war was caused by a series of unfortunate misunderstandings. Like a Greek tragedy, all the death and destruction happens because of misunderstandings.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Huh after watching the episode I wouldn’t have thought any one could possible come to the conclusion that a murder victim and there family is at fault because they dared leave there homes but I guess I should have seen it comings

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

Huh after watching the episode I wouldn’t have thought any one could possible come to the conclusion that a murder victim and there family is at fault because they dared leave there homes but I guess I should have seen it comings

I know right?



I suppose we should blame that girl Aegon raped for dressing like that too.

[InfiniteCharger]

It's not naive...anymore than it was Naive to send Aemond to Storm's End. Rhaenyra was right... Lucerys should have been safe. Even Borros, after siding with the Green's, forbids Aemond from doing anything to Lucerys...because he's an envoy. Aemond not being able to control himself is the only reason Lucerys is dead... in any other situation, Lucerys comes home alive.

As for the bad blood between the children being a reason she should have kept them at home...that logic only works if Rhaenyra knows that Aemond will be at Storm's End when Lucerys gets there. But she has no way of knowing that. She takes precautions by making both her boys swear to restrict themselves to envoy duty only.

The part you are ignoring is that the potential for a bad outcome is something that would have been obvious given the history of these two families. So what I am saying is that she is ignoring that to her own peril and the whole point of strategy it to anticipate the moves of your opponents. Therefore, regardless of whether or not Aemond was the one that was there representing the Greens at Storm's End, she should have known that they would have reached out to them. This isn't about sympathy for Rhaenyra as this is about war and she should have seen this coming long before now. This is the part that is lacking in her decision making and sending her child on a dragon isn't going to be enough to change any potential allegiances that may have shifted. So the issue her being naive isn't simply about whether or not her son would be safe, it is about the larger purpose of that particular mission. Meaning, what could that child and his dragon accomplish given the situation and the end result of him dying is reflective of her bad decision making. Of course the writing reinforces this idea of using dragons as tools in diplomacy by upping the stake with Aemond being there with the biggest dragon. All of this is is an outcome that is decided purely by the writing and the hands of the writer are obvious whether it is in the book or in the series. To me, the whole concept of the entire dynasty of the dragons coming to an end because of a continuing chain of bad decisions going all the way back to the dead King's father is the issue that I have. But because this is the pretext for the Game of Thrones story, the outcome is already established and inevitable regardless how they try and 'nuance' it. The unreliable narrators are just a device that was used to tell the story but the core problems with the plot come from the concept and execution not the narrative format.

That said, Game of Thrones is mostly about carnage and death so really even with the potential flaws in the entire idea of how the Targaryen dynasty ended, it is the carnage that is the selling point of this franchise.

- - - Updated - - -

They are all stupid, that is also a possibility.

Don't simply start from the assumption that the council must be smart (though your bias has been noted). If they had been smart, Otto wouldn't have pulled his coup d'état so flawlessly. These people were so clueless that if Rhaenys didn't escape, they'd still think Viserys is alive.

And the way the series makes it seem like the only one's anticipating Visery's death are the Greens, while Rhaenyra and the blacks are simply sitting on Dragon stone with out a clue in the world what is going on at King's Landing. That by itself is so unbelievable in its own right. Like how did Viserys not put Rhaenyra on the throne after that dinner, seeing as is health was failing? Why wouldn't Rhaenyra have her own 'agents' on Kings landing or preparations of her own in place in the case of something like this happening. She should have reached out to the other houses LOOOONG before this if they truly were using common sense.... But no, she is just there on Dragonstone not paying any attention to anything and her council obviously clueless along with her. But again, this is showing the hand of the writer because it is hard to believe this would have happened if the characters themselves acted in accordance to the world they are living in.

[Varodoc]

And the way the series makes it seem like the only one's anticipating Visery's death are the Greens, while Rhaenyra and the blacks are simply sitting on Dragon stone with out a clue in the world what is going on at King's Landing. That by itself is so unbelievable in its own right. Like how did Viserys not put Rhaenyra on the throne after that dinner, seeing as is health was failing? Why wouldn't Rhaenyra have her own 'agents' on Kings landing or preparations of her own in place in the case of something like this happening. She should have reached out to the other houses LOOOONG before this if they truly were using common sense.... But no, she is just there on Dragonstone not paying any attention to anything and her council obviously clueless along with her. But again, this is showing the hand of the writer because it is hard to believe this would have happened if the characters themselves acted in accordance to the world they are living in.

Yes, this is exactly the last argument I brought up to that guy:

I mean, aside from the fact that Daemon was clearly a dumbass when he genuinely thought Otto and Alicent had Viserys killed (when the dude could barely stand up and was pretty much a corpse); a smarter council probably would have kept a closer eye to King's Landing after their dinner in ep.8, since they all knew that Otto and Alicent were scheming (just before that dinner, they had schemed to place Vaemond Velaryon in charge of Driftmark). I'm not saying they should have received the news instantly, obviously, I'm saying that they were completely oblivious, as in they did not even care about what was happening in KL, with Viserys so weak and clearly unable to rule. No spies, no informants, no agents just to keep an eye on the Red Keep, nothing. Just before that dinner, Rhaenyra and Daemon had discovered that the new regime had replaced all Targaryen banners with the symbol of the Faith (a clear powergrabing move, which they also had no idea of btw), so maybe it would have been smart to leave some informant behind, to give word of any further attempt at power-grabbing from the Hightowers, No?

Meanwhile, you presented no argument whatsoever for the Black council being smart.

Maybe the Black council shouldn't let children like Jacaerys talk and propose his laughable ideas. Irl, no head of state would ever listen to a child on important matters.

Okay so, first of all, I genuinely wonder what was going through Daemon's brain when he accused Alicent of murdering Viserys. Did Daemon not see that Viserys was a literal rotting corpse who couldn't even pick up his crown? He was literally next to him in the walk scene, and he never saw that Viserys was clearly about to die?

Daemon's reasoning in a nutshell:

"Gee, I wonder how my brother, who looked like a literal rotting skeleton missing half his face, could have possibly died... it must have been that whore usurper cunt *insert additional foul language because i'm a kewl rogue* queen who killed him!!!"

Beyond this, Yes, it really is incredible that the Black council had no fucking clue of what was going on in King's Landing. It is the literal capital of the realm, but even aside from that, Daemon had seen that in the few years he had spent in Dragonstone, Alicent had replaced all Targaryen heraldry with Faith symbols, so clearly he had evidence that the Hightowers were making big power moves and were establishing their rule. You'd think, after knowing this, that Daemon would leave a few informants and agents behind, just to report to him if the Hightowers tried to seize even more power.

The undisputable truth, the fact of the story, is that the Black council would still believe that Viserys is alive, had Rhaenys not been smuggled out by a rogue kingsguard to inform them.

Rhaenyra has always been incompetent. I don't know why some people online have this idea that Rhaenyra is smart, she's not. She's incompetent and future seasons will prove it. But even this season shows us that she has been outplayed at every step by the Green council. The bottom line of this story is that both claimants are incompetent and they only make the realm suffer.

But as this thread proves, it just so happens that some people are willing to make all sorts of excuses for one of the two incompetent claimants. It sort of reminds of the Daenerys situation, where she was clearly an incompetent ruler who failed to manage the Slaver's Bay, but her fanboys deluded themselves into thinking she'd be a great and wise ruler.