Zereth Ordus And All The Other Zereths - Evidence They All Look Alike?

[Lochton]

Yeah bro, a writer like GRRM giving you 100 different foreshadowing hints of the Red Wedding is the same thing as Danuser pulling the bald janitor and co. out of nowhere because they are both "fantasy".

Exactly? They are both fantasy, different kinds even, as GRRM is more low fantasy I believe it is called, and WoW is more high fantasy. Still, fantasy, whether hints are dropped or not.

[VinceVega]

So Zereth Mortis
- It looks nothing like mortals would imagine the progenitor plane of death would look like, or what Warcraft Chronicles would have us believe.
If anything Zereth Mortis looks a lot more like the progenitor plane for Order and/or Light instead.

So it got me thinking: Are all Zereth planes like this?
Is the plane of Order and Light exactly the same as this one?
Similar to how Ulduar, Uldaman, and all the Uld - titanic facilities have distinctly titanic architecture present in them?
Are the First Ones just like the Titans in terms of creating these facilities in a similar manner?

Also six mouths that hunger one will consume the rest: Are those the six cosmic forces?

Also "Azeroth": Does it mean the origin of all Zereths or possibly the lack thereof?

What are your thoughts on all this?

Probably in a way. Wows races have a certain style. The first ones don't fall out of that. I guess the golden balls and tenders are everywhere. The rest is more spefific.
Doubt shadow Mortis is going to be a place briming with lush, but ordered, life.

More tumors everywhere because of uncontrolled life

[Lochton]

Yep, additionally I think that they are meant to replace the titans on a grander scale, seeing how titans are aligned with a single cosmic force - that of Order.

Now we have the First Ones to stand above all the cosmic forces as the lore expanded since 2004.

A little false there, my friend. There's a group of Titans nestled into various corners, though if they all come from Order, that I cannot answer but we know there are more, and they aren't all aligned the same. The First Ones are believed to be the makers of the Titans.

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Probably in a way. Wows races have a certain style. The first ones don't fall out of that. I guess the golden balls and tenders are everywhere. The rest is more spefific.
Doubt shadow Mortis is going to be a place briming with lush, but ordered, life.

More tumors everywhere because of uncontrolled life

Tumult and Umbra, are most likely NOT in as good a shape, or maybe misused. For all we know, the ones meant to keep it in place are dead. I mean, we experience that the Pantheon of Death has been replaced a few times, and we know that the Pantheon of Order is currently holding their 'brother' in prison (With little Illidan), who is now completely part of Disorder.

[ArchBringer]

A little false there, my friend. There's a group of Titans nestled into various corners, though if they all come from Order, that I cannot answer but we know there are more, and they aren't all aligned the same. The First Ones are believed to be the makers of the Titans.

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Tumult and Umbra, are most likely NOT in as good a shape, or maybe misused. For all we know, the ones meant to keep it in place are dead. I mean, we experience that the Pantheon of Death has been replaced a few times, and we know that the Pantheon of Order is currently holding their 'brother' in prison (With little Illidan), who is now completely part of Disorder.

OH I SEE NOW THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR:


Mortis, Lumen, Ordos; rhythm and structure.

Vita, Umbra, Tumult; improvisation and possibility.


Now I know there are basically 2 different kinds of Zereths (if not more) Mortis, Ordus and Lumen are structured, and Vita, Umbra, Tumult are not.

THIS IS SO COOL now I basically know why I grouped Mortis together with Light and Order, it's because they are indeed similar in lore

this also lines up PERFECTLY with the new cosmic chart we got from the grimoire of shadowlands

[Lochton]

OH I SEE NOW THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR:


Mortis, Lumen, Ordos; rhythm and structure.

Vita, Umbra, Tumult; improvisation and possibility.


Now I know there are basically 2 different kinds of Zereths (if not more) Mortis, Ordus and Lumen are structured, and Vita, Umbra, Tumult are not.

THIS IS SO COOL now I basically why I grouped Mortis together with Light and Order, it's because they are indeed similar in lore

The fun thing with their categorization is that 'Life' is put into the same category as Shadow and Disorder. From all the old fantasy looks, you would always classify it as Order/Life/Light vs. Disorder/Death/Shadow - so it is a fun view to see a different structure to them.

[ArchBringer]

The fun thing with their categorization is that 'Life' is put into the same category as Shadow and Disorder. From all the old fantasy looks, you would always classify it as Order/Life/Light vs. Disorder/Death/Shadow - so it is a fun view to see a different structure to them.

Exactly, and seeing as how Zereth Mortis is indeed a structured zone like Order and Light, this proves the brokers were right all along.

Man, it feels so satisfying to finally have an answer, thanks! XD

I expect Life, void and chaos to be way different now though, maybe similar in feeling to zereth mortis but also markedly different somehow, can't wait to see 'em

[Puri]

If we actually are ever going to see another Zereth, most likely in some 5 man dungeon, it will look like Zereth Mortis/Sepulcher, probably with some other color scheme. Similar to how troll instances use the same architectural prototype.
Just to remind the player that everything is somehow connected, and we get the "looks like" feeling.

[Loreth88]

In fiction everything is pulled out of creators ass, just like your beloved void elves.

With that logic the nightborne are asspulled to.

[melzas]

With that logic the nightborne are asspulled to.

Yes, that's the point, it's a ficitonal fantasy world, everything created is an "asspull" with the presented original post.

[username993720]

The guy clearly doesn't remember how the idea of Blood elves messing with the Void dates back to TBC, where High Astromancer Solarian, one of Kael'Thas' top lieutenants, turned into a Voidwalker while plunging herself into the Void. And, obviously, Alleria Windrunner's story arc in Legion is pretty big foreshadowing of the rise of the Ren'dorei, the "Children of the Void".

Meanwhile, the idea of an afterlife factory churning out robot death gods is a recent idea, dating back to Danuser waking up one day and deciding to create the First Ones and everything related to them for breakfast.

As it turns out, there's a difference between laying the seeds for something years in advance, and just pulling something out of nowhere all at once.

That's bullshit, to be honest. A few people delved into the Void and suddenly a race is created? Besides, Alleria doesn't fit as the face of the race, she's not even magically inclined.

The only justification is that Dark elves are a common fantasy race.

Void elves aren't dark elves? Void elves are a cheap excuse to give alliance high elves without giving them high elves. They are the biggest asspull in WoW lore ever, so it's hilariously hypocrital for their fan to complain about lore asspulls

They have barely anything common with the High elves. They are a clear ripoff of Dark elves. What do you think Void is? Another word for Dark.

[Niwes]

lots of posts, for a part of a product, nobody in Irvine cares about.

look, they pulled some stupid shit out of their ass, created between lunch and toilet, and then putted that cheap shit into the game and colorized it with some crazy alien look and at the end spitted a few quests into it. Then they hoped enough ppl buy that cheap shit.

And now a few forum ppls discuss that cheap shit, like it is from JRR Tolkien. Sorry guys, but you take a gaming company’s cheap shit story implementation way too serious, imo. At least to me, it REALLY not looks like ZM was created from a long distance, after hundreds of hours of brainstorming, written by some genius lore creator, that normally wrotes the next bestseller.

In short: All that ZM stuff is created way to cheap, to take it serious, like it is 2005 or great WoW core lore. imo.

it’s like asking „is DMF canon?“ the answer is: who cares? it’s a cheap game element, to stretch the revenues a bit. no one gives a F. foremost not Blizzard.

[melzas]

They have barely anything common with the High elves. They are a clear ripoff of Dark elves. What do you think Void is? Another word for Dark.

Void Elves were created because alliance players demanded High Elves sub-race on their faction. Blizzard wanted to cater to this demand but at the same time didn't want to make a copy-pasta race of blood elves and thus Void Elves were created. They pretty much admitted it.

Classic fantasy Dark Elves like Drows in D&D are nothing like Void Elves. Most importantly "dark elves" in pretty much every franchise are EVIL, they worship evil gods etc. Void Elves are "fight fire with fire" kind of a trope, they are infused with dark powers but they are still High/Blood Elves and are fighting for the good cause. They are gloomy and edgy but they aren't dark, not in a classic "dark elves" kind of dark trope anyway.

And they are the best example of an asspull because they came out of nowhere, they had no previous setup, they made very little sense and it's obvious they are just a shitty excuse to give alliance players High Elf (models) without giving them High Elves.

[Varodoc]

That's bullshit, to be honest. A few people delved into the Void and suddenly a race is created? Besides, Alleria doesn't fit as the face of the race, she's not even magically inclined.

The only justification is that Dark elves are a common fantasy race.



They have barely anything common with the High elves. They are a clear ripoff of Dark elves. What do you think Void is? Another word for Dark.

Alleria is the first, leader, and figurehead of the Ren'dorei and the idea of Blood elves messing with the Void is an old one dating back to TBC. Your denial of factual reality is irrelevant.

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Exactly? They are both fantasy, different kinds even, as GRRM is more low fantasy I believe it is called, and WoW is more high fantasy. Still, fantasy, whether hints are dropped or not.

You are still not getting the point.

When people say "asspull", they mean "plot development that had little or no foreshadowing at all", I thought this was taken for granted; but then again, leave it to MMO-C to be pedantic and never take anything for granted.

Beyond your misunderstanding of what the term "asspull" means and inability to differentiate good writing with build-up (like the Red Wedding) from bad writing with no set-up (Shadowlands), the idea that you even thought irl religion and folklore could be comparable to Danuser's OC writing is the most laughable take I have ever seen online.

[VinceVega]

A little false there, my friend. There's a group of Titans nestled into various corners, though if they all come from Order, that I cannot answer but we know there are more, and they aren't all aligned the same. The First Ones are believed to be the makers of the Titans.

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Tumult and Umbra, are most likely NOT in as good a shape, or maybe misused. For all we know, the ones meant to keep it in place are dead. I mean, we experience that the Pantheon of Death has been replaced a few times, and we know that the Pantheon of Order is currently holding their 'brother' in prison (With little Illidan), who is now completely part of Disorder.

I don't think we know about Umbra. For whatever we know they are exactly doing what the first ones intended and Zereth Umbra is doing just fine.
Tumult... is weird... because we SHOULD know it give what happend but other than Sargeras switching sides but not really any indecation that he is part of their pantheon... we have no idea if there even was or is a pantheon.

But honestly i don't think even blizz has a plan for all of them. They wait how we are going to take whatever cosmic patch comes with DF 10.3 and the go from there probably.

[Cheezits]

There's no way that the Chaos Zereth looks normal. I would also expect that the Void Lords have taken over Zereth Umbra and use the machine to make Old Gods.

[Aucald]

There's no way that the Chaos Zereth looks normal. I would also expect that the Void Lords have taken over Zereth Umbra and use the machine to make Old Gods.

I'm actually quite curious as to how the realm of Disorder functions and the nature of what I would presume is Zereth Tumult. As far as we know, the only explorable locale within Disorder is the Twisting Nether, and its only known denizens are the demons, which over the course of WoW have been winnowed down to only a handful of "natural" demons native to the Nether - that is, beings that aren't native to the physical universe and weren't made demonic by Sargeras or the Legion. Of those demons, only the Annihilan (Pit Lords) and Void Hounds remain natural, and it's entirely possible the Void Hounds are, as their name indicates, originally a product of the Void. Is there a greater pantheon of Disorder in some deeper realm inside the plane of Disorder? Is Disorder the only realm without a hierarchy due to its nature denying the concept of hierarchy altogether? Is the Twisting Nether tantamount to the Shadowlands, or is it more akin to the dreary and grayscale interface realm we see when our PCs die? Does Disorder actually have any native life whatsoever; is it only populated by beings converted by its chaotic energies?

[Cheezits]

I'm actually quite curious as to how the realm of Disorder functions and the nature of what I would presume is Zereth Tumult. As far as we know, the only explorable locale within Disorder is the Twisting Nether, and its only known denizens are the demons, which over the course of WoW have been winnowed down to only a handful of "natural" demons native to the Nether - that is, beings that aren't native to the physical universe and weren't made demonic by Sargeras or the Legion. Of those demons, only the Annihilan (Pit Lords) and Void Hounds remain natural, and it's entirely possible the Void Hounds are, as their name indicates, originally a product of the Void. Is there a greater pantheon of Disorder in some deeper realm inside the plane of Disorder? Is Disorder the only realm without a hierarchy due to its nature denying the concept of hierarchy altogether? Is the Twisting Nether tantamount to the Shadowlands, or is it more akin to the dreary and grayscale interface realm we see when our PCs die? Does Disorder actually have any native life whatsoever; is it only populated by beings converted by its chaotic energies?

I have a feeling that some of the races we don't have much lore on, like the Shivaara and maybe the Succubi race, are old demon races that served some kind of ancient purpose before Sargeras showed up and bullied everyone into the crusade. I don't think its been confirmed those two are fel-converted, though I may be wrong. Imps as well.

I bet that there isn't a pantheon because that defeats the purpose of chaos. But there may be ancient demon rulers that either Sargeras killed or allowed to serve from their kingdoms far away in the nether. It would be cool to visit a Shivaara city. Nathreza existed in the Nether so we know that demons can form civilizations, though they are kind of fake demons.

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This may be related to the idea of Zereth Tumult.

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/item=20...-chaos-cluster

[Jaggler]

I'm actually quite curious as to how the realm of Disorder functions and the nature of what I would presume is Zereth Tumult. As far as we know, the only explorable locale within Disorder is the Twisting Nether, and its only known denizens are the demons, which over the course of WoW have been winnowed down to only a handful of "natural" demons native to the Nether - that is, beings that aren't native to the physical universe and weren't made demonic by Sargeras or the Legion. Of those demons, only the Annihilan (Pit Lords) and Void Hounds remain natural, and it's entirely possible the Void Hounds are, as their name indicates, originally a product of the Void. Is there a greater pantheon of Disorder in some deeper realm inside the plane of Disorder? Is Disorder the only realm without a hierarchy due to its nature denying the concept of hierarchy altogether? Is the Twisting Nether tantamount to the Shadowlands, or is it more akin to the dreary and grayscale interface realm we see when our PCs die? Does Disorder actually have any native life whatsoever; is it only populated by beings converted by its chaotic energies?

The Twisting Nether feels like an amalgamation between Fel and Void Energies.

It's not really a "created" realm, like the Shadowlands appear to be but rather a side-effect of how the Warcraft Universe was created.

[loras]

Exactly? They are both fantasy, different kinds even, as GRRM is more low fantasy I believe it is called, and WoW is more high fantasy. Still, fantasy, whether hints are dropped or not.

I am kinda tempted to toss in that picture of LotR with a car in it again.
"You can accept dragons, elves and talking trees, but you can't accept a 2021 BMW 5 series 530i with optional heated seating? Why are you so bigoted?"
(let's see if it upsets the mods enough again for them to underwrite its meaning through their actions again)

Though obviously in this case it would be less about bigots and more about not being able to grasp the concept of internal consistency, whether genuinely so or through transparent attempts at insincere stupidity.

It's funnier in the case of the bigots since it showcases pretentious anti-bigots just being either delusional or duplicitous bigots themselves, but i digress.

[Aucald]

You are still not getting the point.

When people say "asspull", they mean "plot development that had little or no foreshadowing at all", I thought this was taken for granted; but then again, leave it to MMO-C to be pedantic and never take anything for granted.

Beyond your misunderstanding of what the term "asspull" means and inability to differentiate good writing with build-up (like the Red Wedding) from bad writing with no set-up (Shadowlands), the idea that you even thought irl religion and folklore could be comparable to Danuser's OC writing is the most laughable take I have ever seen online.

Eh, while I don't think the creation of the Void Elves is by any means a bad thing, I do agree they and their lore is a bit of an asspull insofar as the Internet parlance goes. My reasoning for this is that the majority of their lore is entirely retroactive and recontexual. With their introduction, we learn that there was this random sect of Blood Elves, heretofore completely unknown and unmentioned, who were curious about the Void's existence, and had been exiled from Silvermoon at some previous point near TBC, and then were coincidentally discovered by Alleria which then led up to the creation of the Void Elves through a series of accidents.

I don't really think Umbric's retroactive existence was really necessary to create the Void Elves, Alleria could've just as easily used her own considerable legacy and charisma to attract any number of disaffected Blood Elves (who we already know to exist) and then a similar series of events could've occurred with Durzaan and the Void, eventually leading to the creation of the Ren'dorei. Umbric exists more or less to give the Ren'dorei a kind of historic credibility, but his retroactive existence actually serves as a glaring after-the-fact addition that gives an impression of shoddy insertion into the narrative. I would've preferred Umbric as just the de-facto leader of a group of Blood Elves who were disenfranchised by the Horde, attached their wagons to Alleria's legend, and then after a series of events became the Void Elves.

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The Twisting Nether feels like an amalgamation between Fel and Void Energies.

It's not really a "created" realm, like the Shadowlands appear to be but rather a side-effect of how the Warcraft Universe was created.

This is entirely possible, given how little we actually know of the realm despite its prominence in the story. The Twisting Nether has always had a lot of overlap with the Void, as well; from Voidwalkers being a staple of Warlockery to the Nether seeming to contain native Void-themed entities like the aforementioned Void Hounds, and Void-related entities appearing there with considerable frequency.