[TV] House of the Dragon

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Okay so, first of all, I genuinely wonder what was going through Daemon's brain when he accused Alicent of murdering Viserys. Did Daemon not see that Viserys was a literal rotting corpse who couldn't even pick up his crown? He was literally next to him in the walk scene, and he never saw that Viserys was clearly about to die?

It’s really not that far of a stretch, the queen and her party moved to usurp the throne instantly and even locked up the kings sister breaking all norms only days after they tried and failed to move against the princess and the king came out reinforcing his support of his daughter even though he was incredibly sick.


The kings poor conduction only makes it more likely that they would kill him to get what they want as no one would question the case of his dead and even while sick he was in there way.

[Varodoc]

It’s really not that far of a stretch, the queen and her party moved to usurp the throne instantly and even locked up the kings sister breaking all norms only days after they tried and failed to move against the princess and the king came out reinforcing his support of his daughter even though he was incredibly sick.


The kings poor conduction only makes it more likely that they would kill him to get what they want as no one would question the case of his dead and even while sick he was in there way.

The average wight in the Night King's army looked healthier than Viserys; Yes, it is a massive stretch to assume murder instead of, you know, a natural death. Again, the dude was literally missing half his face and couldn't even walk anymore (hence why he had to be carried to dinner by his guards). He clearly did not have much time left. Daemon blaming Alicent was just Daemon being foolish, frustrated, salty, and on copium.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The average wight in the Night King's army looked healthier than Viserys; Yes, it is a massive stretch to assume murder instead of, you know, a natural death. Again, the dude was literally missing half his face and couldn't even walk anymore (hence why he had to be carried to dinner by his guards). He clearly did not have much time left. Daemon blaming Alicent was just Daemon being foolish, frustrated, salty, and on copium.

Him looking so poor and not having much time left is just more reason to think they would kill him and pretend it was natural as no one would question it and he was openly opposing there plans even getting up in such a condition o shut them down.

Add in the sudden death bed change in heir that no one heard but the queen who was trying to screw them at every turn and your have to be a fool to not atleast suspect it all being a murder/coup.

[Kumorii]

Him looking so poor and not having much time left is just more reason to think they would kill him and pretend it was natural as no one would question it and he was openly opposing there plans even getting up in such a condition o shut them down.

Add in the sudden death bed change in heir that no one heard but the queen who was trying to screw them at every turn and your have to be a fool to not atleast suspect it all being a murder/coup.

Yeah I agree with this. Maybe they should've been more clear that he suspected them of making his death come a little bit quicker or more timely to their usurpation of the throne.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yeah I agree with this. Maybe they should've been more clear that he suspected them of making his death come a little bit quicker or more timely to their usurpation of the throne.

I think it’s quite fitting that Daemon would just come out and say it given that he’s shown not to be able to regulate his emotions and will say out of place well even when dealing with people he cares about like his brother.

[Dezerte]

I figured Daemon said that to make their claim to the throne stronger.

[Khaza-R]

I figured Daemon said that to make their claim to the throne stronger.

Seems like a common theme though from people who knew Viserys well or who were close to him.

Beesbury accuses them of treason when he hears Alicent's tale.

Rhaenys literally laughs at Alicent and asks her if she honestly expects her to believe that.

So I think anyone close to Viserys and not closely aligned to the Hightowers basically expects foul play at this point.

[Syegfryed]

"the king sudden death" lmao, Viserys was dead like 5 years ago, he was just waiting to be taken

It was no surprise that when he died, they hide for a week, while doing their work, there was no one to know. If they were so worried and not naive, they should have people of trust there to "spy" on the greens

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You'd have to be an idiot to not at least suspect some foul play. Beesbury, a member of the small council, suspected as much.

1) The greens had been working for years to try and get Viserys to make Aegon his hier. Despite this...Viserys was steadfast in his decision... Rhaenyra was his heir.

2) Right before his death Viserys suddenly changes his mind about who the heir is (a position he has held firmly on for over 15 years)...and the only person he tells this to is his wife... a person that stands to lose the most if Rhaenyra takes the throne...and who benefits greatly if her son does. She's the last person to see him alive. That's motive and opportunity.

3) After his death... the greens try and cover it up as long as possible to buy themselves more time to secure their coup. Even if Viserys had change his mind about who the heir was... a raven should have been sent to Rhaenyra immediately to inform her that her father had passsed.

[Varodoc]

It's pretty hilarious that Rhaenyra employed no informant at all who could regularly update her on anything that was happening in the Red Keep; you know, the royal centre of power, and her future seat. That way, she either would have heard news of what the Greens did, or would have suspected something the moment she heard no word from her informants (she was so lucky that Ser Erryk turned traitor and smuggled Rhaenys out of the palace).

Looks like Viserys, in his naivety, didn't teach Rhaenyra one basic lesson: knowledge is power. Doubly so when you are the heir apparent and, you know, we're talking about the literal royal palace and centre of the monarchy you're supposed to inherit.

This is the simple fact that people here missed, but the story highlights several times. The earliest I can remember is midway through S1, where Littlefinger tells Ned that the Red Keep is filled with informants (employed by himself, by Varys, by Cersei...) who observe from the shadows; because knowledge is power.

This is a crucial lesson that Alicent knows very well though, which is why she employs Master of Whispers Larys Strong and his network of spies.

[Tojara]

We don't even know how long the green's had been effectively ruling in Viserys absence. Without him being active the hand of the king and the queen are the two most powerful figures until Viserys passes. I'm not sure how there's any confusion or questioning about why Daemon, let alone Rhaenyra would come to those conclusions. Hell even Rhaenys was like "yeah, sure I totally believe you". Whether he was a walking corpse or not and it's perfectly fine that he died (and we know, at least now that there was no ill intent) it seems awfully strange that he died the following day when everybody left. It's also awfully strange that Aegon was thrust into power the following day and had Rhaenys not escaped that word wouldn't have reached Daemon/Rhaenyra as quickly as it did. Questioning why they came to the conclusion of foul play seems awfully legitimate to me.

"So my brother died the night after we saw him but claimed that very night that Aegon were to be heir in his dying moments, denying Rhaenyra her claim moments before his death despite advocating for it heavily for well over a decade. Rhaenys is locked up the next day, and had she not escaped this information wouldn't have even reached us. They also had a plan to put Aegon on throne like they had been planning well in advance. Yeah that makes sense, Alicent and Ottos explanation makes perfect sense" - Daemon

As far as informants, I'm not even sure who Rhaenyra could have as informants. She like Viserys hedged their knowledge and information on a council that were sworn by oath to help guide them. Viserys makes it perfectly clear that everybody at that table has self-interests. Realistically speaking though there's no where else for a ruling monarch to go? A King/Queen dabbling in spies isn't very befitting of royalty and they expect that council, in addition to all of those people that swore and oath to them to protect them.

Pretty much all the King's in GoT/HoTD get betrayed because that's the one thing they don't really get, a true vision of what's going on. Alicent only knows this half way through the season, and it's pushed upon her by her father and later Larys Strong.

Wouldn't call Erryk a traitor considering he was doing the 'right' thing. I also similarly wouldn't call Alicent a bad person because she (unbeknownst to her) got the wrong idea from a dying Viserys. Remember how surprised she was when she learned that this had been planned well in advance? If anything the optics was both necessary on the part of the greens (thrust him into power immediately) but also awful because anybody with a brain would conclude that there might be foul play by both the king DYING and a new one being coronated the very next day with such detail. Of course it makes sense they didn't wait, but to question why the blacks are crying foul play is silly.

[Syegfryed]

It's pretty hilarious that Rhaenyra employed no informant at all who could regularly update her on anything that was happening in the Red Keep; you know, the royal centre of power, and her future seat. .

But you know, just like Jacerys was otally safe going out alone as messanger, her position was 100% safe as well, there was no need care about it

the saying "better safe than sorry" does not aply to targeryans.

[Varodoc]

We don't even know how long the green's had been effectively ruling in Viserys absence.

They ruled for six years, the timeskip between ep.7 and ep.8 (let's be generous and assume Viserys deteriorated immediately after ep.7). That's six years where Alicent could have had a bedridden Viserys killed any time she wanted, without anyone even knowing the circumstances of what happened.

What you and Daemon (in-universe) here are saying doesn't make sense. Alicent is way smarter than this. If Alicent really wanted Viserys dead, she would have had him killed in the 6 years timeskip, while Rhaenyra was away. Not when Rhaenyra and Daemon were technically still in the Red Keep. And when they had already seen Viserys' condition.

You agreeing with Daemon's paranoia is at odds with story portrayal. It is not the kind of reaction that the story wanted to elicit. Throughout the entire episode, up until the very last scene, Daemon is portrayed as completely consumed by rage and anger, to the point of violently choking his own wife. And no one is by his side. No one wants to follow him. Rhaenyra, Jacaerys, everyone disagrees with him. They all agree that they must pursue peace and they are all thinking rationally. Daemon is the only one who is salty and can't keep his emotions in check. When Daemon says "that usurper cunt queen killed my brother!!", you're supposed to be like "daemon is clearly salty and can't keep his emotions under control".

Had Daemon calmed down, he would have easily realized that Alicent couldn't have killed him, the timing wouldn't make sense. If anything, she should have killed him a few days before Driftmark's petition, instead of going through the trouble of keeping him in bed with milk of the poppy so that he wouldn't interfere.

Lastly, there is also the fact that Alicent, being a Hightower, is deeply religious and faithful, so much so that she replaced all the dragon sigils in the palace with the pointed star of the Faith (Daemon knows this, he was the one who noticed the stars in the first place). Kinslaying AND kingslaying are considered grave sins against the Gods, this should have been ultimate proof for Daemon that Alicent couldn't possibly have done it. She would be too pious to stoop at those levels.

"So my brother died the night after we saw him

So as I was saying earlier, he's already wrong at the start. If she wanted Viserys dead, she wouldn't have waited 6 years and she definitely wouldn't have done it right after Daemon and Rhaenyra had just been to the Red Keep and seen the powergrabbing moves she had made during the timeskip (such as replacing the Targaryen heraldry with the heraldry of the Faith). That would draw too many suspicions. You are correct in your post when you say that the timing of Viserys' death would be suspicious (right after he defied the Greens at the Driftmark petition); and that is why Alicent couldn't have done it, she wouldn't make it so obvious. Daemon should reasonably infer that Alicent is smarter than that.

As far as informants, I'm not even sure who Rhaenyra could have as informants

If foreign eunuchs like Varys and minor lords like Littlefinger can set up all these vast networks of spies and informants throughout the world, surely the heir apparent of the greatest monarchy in Westeros could find someone who could spy and observe the royal palace for her.

A King/Queen dabbling in spies isn't very befitting of royalty

All kings and queens employ a Master of Whispers and their own personal informants reporting directly to them (at least in the case of Queen Cersei; who, as per Littlefinger's statement, had many informants and spies spread throughout the Red Keep, acting independently from LF and Varys).

Rhaenyra didn't even employ a Master of Whispers... it's shown several times throughout the story that knowledge is power. This is how Littlefinger himself is defeated after all, by an omniscient kid. Rhaenyra not having any spies at all, not even a Master of Whispers, is proof that she is living in her own little dream world and has no clue about how Westeros really works.

Lastly, a queen having bastards is also not befitting of royalty, so that ship sailed a long time ago.

[Syegfryed]

If anything, she should have killed him a few days before Driftmark's petition, instead of going through the trouble of keeping him in bed with milk of the poppy so that he wouldn't interfere.

Or, when Rhaenys was not there, at least, so she would not discover it

[Relikk]

Is this thread hidden? I can't see it unless I search for it.

[Varodoc]

Or, when Rhaenys was not there, at least, so she would not discover it

Orchestrating an assassination plot would be foolish in the first place; as Viserys was a literal rotting corpse with half his face missing. Why even bother? It's not like with Robert, who was still healthy and strong enough to hunt, and a threat to Cersei and the Lannisters. Viserys was clearly not going to last long. You don't plot an assassination against someone who clearly does not have much left to live.

The hilarious part is that they already got the king out of the way, assassination or not. They got him out of the way for 6 years, by constantly feeding him milk of the poppy. Which made him mentally weak and unable to interfere with their plots.

That's why, when Viserys is struggling and in pain at the end of the Driftmark petition, and Alicent suggests that he take "something for the pain" (likely referring to milk of the poppy, which is a powerful painkiller), he refuses, saying that he must not "cloud his mind". Referring to the fact that, for 6 years, Alicent and the Masters were feeding him milk of the poppy so that he would stay in bed all day long and not have the energy to ever try to interfere with their plans.

So why exactly would Alicent specifically need to have Viserys assassinated? What would she gain from it that she doesn't have already? The king was already going to die in a matter of days, if not hours, as he was a literal zombie, and he was not an obstacle at all because Alicent and the Maesters were giving him huge amounts of milk of the poppy.

I mean, Alicent was sitting on the king's throne at the Small Council chamber and Otto was sitting on the literal Iron Throne. They didn't need to have Viserys killed because he was already too weak from the illness and the huge amounts of milk of the poppy to do anything.

These are all things that Daemon should have taken into consideration, before insulting Alicent (the word "whore" was used, the same insult Vaemond died for btw) and accusing her of kinslaying and kingslaying (very serious accusations in-universe).

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Orchestrating an assassination plot would be foolish in the first place; as Viserys was a literal rotting corpse with half his face missing. Why even bother? It's not like with Robert, who was still healthy and strong enough to hunt, and a threat to Cersei and the Lannisters. Viserys was clearly not going to last long. You don't plot an assassination against someone who clearly does not have much left to live.

The hilarious part is that they already got the king out of the way, assassination or not. They got him out of the way for 6 years, by constantly feeding him milk of the poppy. Which made him mentally weak and unable to interfere with their plots.

That's why, when Viserys is struggling and in pain at the end of the Driftmark petition, and Alicent suggests that he take "something for the pain" (likely referring to milk of the poppy, which is a powerful painkiller), he refuses, saying that he must not "cloud his mind". Referring to the fact that, for 6 years, Alicent and the Masters were feeding him milk of the poppy so that he would stay in bed all day long and not have the energy to ever try to interfere with their plans.

So why exactly would Alicent specifically need to have Viserys assassinated? What would she gain from it that she doesn't have already? The king was already going to die in a matter of days, if not hours, as he was a literal zombie, and he was not an obstacle at all because Alicent and the Maesters were giving him huge amounts of milk of the poppy.

These are all things that Daemon should have taken into consideration, before insulting Alicent and accusing her of kinslaying and kingslaying (very serious accusations in-universe).

You must be aware that having him out of the way for 6 years only for him to then get up and shatter there plans and reaffirm the princess as his heir is exactly why they would assassinate him right?

[Ghost of Cow]

Yes, Viserys was on death's door for a long time.

However, if your mother/father were very ill and you and a sibling were in a contentious inheritance battle because said parent left you everything in their will...then one day you go out to the store, come back and your sibling is like, "Oh, mom died while you were out. Also, mom said I should get everything. Sorry, man." you wouldn't be just a little skeptical of what went on while you were gone?

[Varodoc]

Yes, Viserys was on death's door for a long time.

However, if your mother/father were very ill and you and a sibling were in a contentious inheritance battle because said parent left you everything in their will...then one day you go out to the store, come back and your sibling is like, "Oh, mom died while you were out. Also, mom said I should get everything. Sorry, man." you wouldn't be just a little skeptical of what went on while you were gone?

Not if, a few days before that, I had seen that the parent was missing half their face and couldn't even walk anymore and literally had to be taken away from the dinner early because he/she was in agony. And he was also sick for decades btw.

Daemon was just salty and not thinking rationally. I'm pretty sure he's the only one in Dragonstone who accuses Alicent of having murdered Viserys.

[inafume]

Looks like Viserys, in his naivety, didn't teach Rhaenyra one basic lesson: knowledge is power.

As Cersei told Littlefinger and recently I heard in meetings - knowledge isn't power. Power (in Cersei's line) or action (from the meeting) is power. Knowledge is meaningless if you don't act upon it.

But yes, Rhaenyra should've had a network of spies in her employ. Clearly Lord Caswell was adjacent to this, but he was no spy and was immediately killed for being an obvious sympathizer.