[TV] House of the Dragon

[Khaza-R]

It didn't "shatter" the plans, it just delays then by losing one house. And no, that wasn't reason enough, they would just continuously do the work how they were doing before.

And again, if, they would assassinate him, even without reason to, they would do without Reanys there, weeks or months later, after the coup was ready. its just logical

Another logical thing to think is that Viserys died, exactly because the effort he put since he was already too bad, not assassination

I don't think that's accurate at all. Viserys is reduced to a corpse. In reality he probably should of succumb to his disease a long time ago but kept persisting. Its not an uncommon theme for foul play to be involved when an individual has surpassed their perceived expiration date.

As for Rhaenys, they clearly forgot she was there in the first place. Hence her getting outraging and demanding an audience after being lockdown.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This is another point that can easily be brought up to defend Alicent's position. She is justified in her belief that her children would be threatened, and likely killed, by Rhaenyra.

Wait it's justified that she think's her children would be killed if the princess takes the throne but its not justified that any one else would think she killed the king to stop that from happening?

[Tojara]

I don't even know why I bother replying. Alicent never believed that initially, her father seeded that thought in her head from the very beginning. Otto has no basis given how Rhaenyra was raised to assume that Rhaenyra would come after her children in the future. If you want to claim that Alicent is far more innocent than anybody else, I would agree. Otto from the very beginning has been pushing Alicent towards this line of thinking, as he also did with Daemon and Viserys as hand. Not that I think Daemon is innocent in the slightest (because he's impulsive and brutal as fuck), but it's painfully obvious Otto had been making Daemon seem far worse than he really is. If not for Viserys being so kind and both brothers actually loving each other, this tactic would've worked completely.

Rhaenys doesn't have to imply anything to Rhaenyra and Daemon either lol. She told them both that Viserys is dead, and Aegon was made successor. They asked her how long it's been since his death, and she replies a day or maybe two, also mentioning that she had been imprisoned. Not sure what's lost here? Like I said, it doesn't fucking matter whether or not the point of Viserys randomly changing his mind or not is known to Rhaenys or ANYBODY. The whole point is Aegon was crowned in less than two days maximum, with no outreach to Daemon/Rhaenyra. I'm not sure how this is confusing, or why them questioning it is wrong in the slightest. It would be painfully obvious this is a giant power grab considering how fast they moved along, and that the ENTIRE FAMILY was in King's Landing in the last 48 hours.

We the viewer (at least as we know), know that there was no foul play by Alicent in regards to killing Viserys. The characters however don't know this, and all actions that took place after his death would arise suspicion in any rational human being.

Rhaenyra now coming after Alicents children is actually legitimate though. But Otto or the greens can't say, see we told you all along! The thing happened we warned you about. While ignoring everything that would cause Rhaenyra to go through this transformation to begin with. Her father dying was hidden to her, her claim to the throne was taken, her cousin was imprisoned and one of her sons in addition to his dragon was very clearly killed be Aemond/Vhagar (we know what happened, but nobody else does). The stress of all of this also causes her child to die all at this very critical time. In all honestly her going on a rampage is all but justified at this point.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

We the viewer (at least as we know), know that there was no foul play by Alicent in regards to killing Viserys. The characters however don't know this, and all actions that took place after his death would arise suspicion in any rational human being.

I think that's the crux of the problem with some of these posters.

[Varodoc]

I don't even know why I bother replying.

I thank you for your charitable act, though next time quote me as well! Otherwise I might have missed your reply.

Otto has no basis given how Rhaenyra was raised to assume that Rhaenyra would come after her children in the future

Rhaenyra was "raised" to completely disregard duties and law to pursue an illegal relationship with the Commander of the City Watch and have illegitimate bastards, so she wasn't exactly raised in a good way.

Given how Rhaenyra grew up to be a brat, and given how the world works (ofc the firstborn son would be a threat, rebellions could always be raised in his name to push his claim; Rhaenyra could claim she doesn't care, but no one with a brain would believe her), it is completely justified for Otto to believe that Rhaenyra would eventually come to see his grandchildren as a threat.

but it's painfully obvious Otto had been making Daemon seem far worse than he really is

The dude literally crushed his wife to death without remorse so that he could pursue an illegal relationship with his niece.

He is a monster. Otto saved the realm by protecting it from Maegor II. Though not many are willing to put aside their bias for a moment and admit it.

The whole point is Aegon was crowned in less than two days maximum, with no outreach to Daemon/Rhaenyra. I'm not sure how this is confusing, or why them questioning it is wrong in the slightest. It would be painfully obvious this is a giant power grab considering how fast they moved along, and that the ENTIRE FAMILY was in King's Landing in the last 48 hours.

This is still not evidence that Viserys was assassinated, it's evidence that Otto orchestrated a coup d'état. It's not evidence that he had Viserys killed; again, the last time Daemon saw his brother, he was literally crying out in agony and had to be taken away from the dinner.

Furthermore, if Daemon was not salty and crazed, he would have easily realized that Otto couldn't have killed Viserys. Do you know why? Because, believe it or not, but Otto and Viserys were genuinely friends. Otto did not hate Viserys, thus he would never have had him killed.

This is something that should be obvious in-universe (Viserys literally recalled Otto for a second term, after 9 years of first term, it should be clear that the two were in friendly terms); but Daemon unfortunately can't put his personal bias aside to realize it.

This is also something that was directly acknowledged by the showrunners; as they said, in the behind the scenes of ep.4, that Otto "really loves Viserys". So, Canonically, Otto truly loved Viserys as a friend. He could never have Viserys killed. It's a shame Daemon could never put his rage aside to understand this truth.

We the viewer (at least as we know), know that there was no foul play by Alicent in regards to killing Viserys. The characters however don't know this, and all actions that took place after his death would arise suspicion in any rational human being.

The only one who is suspicious is Daemon, no one here has yet provided an example of another character who agrees with Daemon's baseless accusations. Daemon is portrayed throughout the entire episode as crazed with rage (to the point of choking his own wife/queen and threatening her life). Something that made his stans and fangirls on twitter quite salty, actually, which was hilarious to see.

Shockingly, the dude who ruthlessly crushed his wife to death turned out to be paranoid and unstable, seeing conspiracies everywhere.

In all honestly her going on a rampage is all but justified at this point.

The same arguments were raised to defend Daenerys in S8, and the story clearly disagreed.

Rampage is never justified. Rhaenyra has literal nukes at her disposal, in no world is any rampage of this kind justified.

This is a storytelling trap and you're falling for it. Just because a character had tragic events happen to them doesn't give them the right to go on a rampage with nukes.

[Syegfryed]

The king getting up and shutting both of those down after supposed years of inactivity is absolutely shatter those plans and it's perfectly logical to think that the queen might go to murder and a coup after the king showed that he is still in her way even though they thought he was out of the picture and they could do what ever they want.

ITs not perfectly logical, is dumb, its shooting yourself in the foot doing that, by raising unnecessary suspicious towards you, when you could kill the king later.

Do you not realize that killing the king RIGHT AFTER he disrupt their plans work AGAINST THEN, because it would be too much on the face?

Sure you can make a argument that there Coup could have been more effective but you'd have to be a fool to not attest suspect foul play after such a sudden rebuttle of there plans and them trying to hide the death and steal the throne.

You can suspect foul play because they are doing foul play it for 6 years, the foolish thing is assuming it was murder, when the king was on death's door already, and you would know, as a normal thinker, that the enemy would not be so dumb to kill the king RIGHT AFTER we see him and RIGHT AFTER he disrupt your plans, when they clearly were not totally ready for the coup

Thats why in the books they hide for a week before making public, assuming it was murder is jumping a conclusion because anger.

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I don't think that's accurate at all. Viserys is reduced to a corpse. In reality he probably should of succumb to his disease a long time ago but kept persisting. Its not an uncommon theme for foul play to be involved when an individual has surpassed their perceived expiration date.

As for Rhaenys, they clearly forgot she was there in the first place. Hence her getting outraging and demanding an audience after being lockdown.

If this is true, why not extend his valid for a few weeks THEN, kill it later when they were ready and no suspicious would be raise?

Someone who would do a coup and kill the king would for no reason forget their enemy is literally in their own roof

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

"We didn't cover up the king's death because we murdered him... we covered up the King's death because we wanted more time to implement our coup" is not the brilliant defense some people seem to think it is.

A big reason to kill the king right then was because he wasn't content anymore to just lie in bed waiting for death while Otto was effectively running the Seven Kingdoms. Coup was running smoothly until Viserys decided to get out of bed that day and fucked up their plan to take Driftmark. What plans could the King fuck up tomorrow? Otto gets replaced as the King's hand again? Aegon and Aemond get sent to Dragonstone to "bond" with their nephews?

[Jastall]

The Greens did everything to look guilty af. Viserys literally just insisted that Rheanyra was his heir for all to see, but he'd change his mind right before dying when nobody but one of the main beneficiaries of said change of heart was around to hear about it? And a day after his death Aegon is declared king? That's quite the implausible turn of events that would definitely sound like total BS to anyone.

And while we know they didn't murder Viserys (really there's no need, he was clearly a dead man walking), we also know Otto and his entourage prepared for it and planned to usurp the throne for a while. More than a decade, arguably. Alicent is likely the most innocent character in all this but she still complied in the end.

[VMSmith]

Is this thread hidden? I can't see it unless I search for it.

If you have the thread-starter, Hansworst, on ignore then you will not see the thread in the forum.

[MCMLXXXII]

If you have the thread-starter, Hansworst, on ignore then you will not see the thread in the forum.

This. I feel special now, never had an interaction with the dude.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

here has yet provided an example of another character who agrees with Daemon's baseless accusations.

Again a member of the queens own council made the same accusation and war murdered for it and his murder promoted.

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ITs not perfectly logical, is dumb, its shooting yourself in the foot doing that, by raising unnecessary suspicious towards you, when you could kill the king later.

Do you not realize that killing the king RIGHT AFTER he disrupt their plans work AGAINST THEN, because it would be too much on the face?

I’m not making the argument that this would be the best time to kill him if you wanted to avoid people thinking it was murder I’m pointing out that motive wise the kings actions give them a really good one as the puppet they had for 6 years just cut its strings and ruined there plans publicly and could move against them in other ways if left out from there there control.

You can suspect foul play because they are doing foul play it for 6 years, the foolish thing is assuming it was murder, when the king was on death's door already, and you would know, as a normal thinker, that the enemy would not be so dumb to kill the king RIGHT AFTER we see him and RIGHT AFTER he disrupt your plans, when they clearly were not totally ready for the coup

him being on deaths door is more of a reason to suspect murder not less a pillow over the head of a dying man is a lot
Less suspect then a healthy one (or even sickly) suddenly dropping dead as he distrusts your plans.

Like really if you can’t see why people would be suspicious your either being dishonest or are clueless of how people think, we have people now a days thinking X person was actually murdered with far less questionable things surrounding them then the king.

[Varodoc]

The Greens did everything to look guilty af. Viserys literally just insisted that Rheanyra was his heir for all to see, but he'd change his mind right before dying when nobody but one of the main beneficiaries of said change of heart was around to hear about it? And a day after his death Aegon is declared king? That's quite the implausible turn of events that would definitely sound like total BS to anyone.

The king once mistook Alicent for his first wife, who had been dead for 13 years, and called her "Aemma". He didn't even apologize to Alicent. This was six years before he degenerated so much that he couldn't even get up from bed anymore. He was clearly senile and confused. We as viewers know that Viserys was referring to Aegon the Conqueror, not Aegon the Elder, because we have that knowledge; but in-universe, if I were a noble or a smallfolk who worked at the palace, I could 100% take into account the possibility that the senile king was just losing it and genuinely changed heir at the last moment. The guy was clearly unstable, not just from a physical perspective, with his body literally falling apart; but also from a mental perspective, as he once mistook Alicent for "Aemma", who had been dead for 13 years.

It's not too unreasonable to assume in-universe that he genuinely changed his mind, given how he was senile. Daemon himself acknowledged how the senile king most likely couldn't even remember his own name. Senile old people tend to make irrational and illogical decisions, so it shouldn't be too surprising if Viserys just decided to change his heir randomly.

[Relikk]

If you have the thread-starter, Hansworst, on ignore then you will not see the thread in the forum.

Indeed. Forgot about that. Cheers.

[Syegfryed]

I’m not making the argument that this would be the best time to kill him if you wanted to avoid people thinking it was murder I’m pointing out that motive wise the kings actions give them a really good one as the puppet they had for 6 years just cut its strings and ruined there plans publicly and could move against them in other ways if left out from there there control.

And im telling you, thinking as a murder is something completely from an anger point of view, is something you assume from emotion and not from logic.

him being on deaths door is more of a reason to suspect murder not less a pillow over the head of a dying man is a lot
Less suspect then a healthy one (or even sickly) suddenly dropping dead as he distrusts your plans.

Killing someone who is already going to die soon, right after he do something harmful to you is something dumb, and its illogical to think the enemy would do that

Like really if you can’t see why people would be suspicious your either being dishonest or are clueless of how people think, we have people now a days thinking X person was actually murdered with far less questionable things surrounding them then the king.

People would be suspicious out of anger and grief, again, emotions over logical thinking

Any logical person in their position would say: "They murder my brother!!! Wait... that does not add.. why would they kill him right after we meet? and with Rhaenys there? Taking account my brother was basically a rotting walking corpse and they were already ruling the kingdom in his back anyway, it would be dumb to kill him right now... Maybe he just died from his illness and those bastards seize the opportunity to take over the throne...

[Varodoc]

And im telling you, thinking as a murder is something completely from an anger point of view, is something you assume from emotion and not from logic.




Killing someone who is already going to die soon, right after he do something harmful to you is something dumb, and its illogical to think the enemy would do that



People would be suspicious out of anger and grief, again, emotions over logical thinking

any logical person in their position would say: "they murder my brother!!! wait... that does not add, why would they kill him right after we meet? and with Raenhys there? Taking account my brother was basically a rotting walking corpse and they were already ruling the kingdom, it would be dumb to kill him right now, maybe he just died from his illness and bastards seize the opportunity to take over the throne...

Yeah. If the point was to kill him without drawing too many suspicions, then killing him right after he publicly defended his daughter and his bastard child at the expense of his own health would achieve the exact opposite.

Killing him right after he publicly humiliated Otto, by telling him to get the fuck off his throne, would make it so obvious. The timing would be so blatantly suspicious. As I said, Otto and Alicent are not that dumb, they constantly think like this.

Meanwhile, killing him during the 6 years timeskip, BEFORE the Driftmark petition (which was a major public moment for Viserys), would not have drawn many suspicions, and the Hightower court could have just told the Dragonstone council whatever they lie they wanted. The king was ill, his time was short.

The posters here have a disappointing and insufficient understanding of Otto and Alicent. These two are extremely cunning and calculating schemers. And though ep.9 showed that Otto was even more manipulative than Alicent, Alicent still helped orchestrate the whole plot with Vaemond against the Strong bastards, and she then tried to manipulate Rhaenys against the Blacks.

I am disappointed honestly, posters here have a poor understanding of the Hightowers. They are way too fucking smart and cunning to make the assassination plot so obvious.

And this is why Daemon is ultimately irrational and foolish. He should at least acknowledge that the Hightowers are schemers. He should understand that they would not make it that obvious. Otto is a schemer on par with, or at least comparable to, Baelish; and no one ever suspected Baelish of killing Joffrey.

Daemon believes that Otto is the worst scumbag alive and only wants Viserys dead. If that were the case, surely he should have also been bright enough to understand that, if Otto wanted Viserys dead, he wouldn't have waited 6 years to kill him. You don't need 6 years to assassinate a weak and senile king living in your palace.

[Jastall]

The king once mistook Alicent for his first wife, who had been dead for 13 years, and called her "Aemma". He didn't even apologize to Alicent. This was six years before he degenerated so much that he couldn't even get up from bed anymore. He was clearly senile and confused. We as viewers know that Viserys was referring to Aegon the Conqueror, not Aegon the Elder, because we have that knowledge; but in-universe, if I were a noble or a smallfolk who worked at the palace, I could 100% take into account the possibility that the senile king was just losing it and genuinely changed heir at the last moment. The guy was clearly unstable, not just from a physical perspective, with his body literally falling apart; but also from a mental perspective, as he once mistook Alicent for "Aemma", who had been dead for 13 years.

It's not too unreasonable to assume in-universe that he genuinely changed his mind, given how he was senile. Daemon himself acknowledged how the senile king most likely couldn't even remember his own name. Senile old people tend to make irrational and illogical decisions, so it shouldn't be too surprising if Viserys just decided to change his heir randomly.

Works both ways tho. He could change his mind in favor of Aegon then name his horse heir the next day. If he is to be considered so senile, then whatever he says cannot be trusted to represent his mind.

To say nothing of the fact that, unlike his reaffirmed support for Rhaenyra which was public, he allegedly said it to one person. Who stands to gain much from this sudden change to the line of succession that fortuitously now cannot be reversed because he's dead.

And finally, we know that what Viserys says matters to literally one person, that being Alicent, and that she's more pawn than player in all this. The Greens were raring to sit Aegon on that throne and would have done so the second Viserys died regardless of what he said. Unless you think Otto, Cole and Larys planned this for years but would go "wait guys, Rheanyra's the heir, we can't possibly crown our chosen candidate that we worked so hard to maneuver into power lol" had Viserys babbled about his tabletop minis instead of Aegon I's prophecy as he died.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People would be suspicious out of anger and grief, again, emotions over logical thinking

Any logical person in their position would say: "They murder my brother!!! Wait... that does not add.. why would they kill him right after we meet? and with Rhaenys there? Taking account my brother was basically a rotting walking corpse and they were already ruling the kingdom in his back anyway, it would be dumb to kill him right now... Maybe he just died from his illness and those bastards seize the opportunity to take over the throne...

Mabye if the human race was all replaced by robots you’d be right but in reality humans don’t operate on that level of logic and within the bounds of actual humanity thinking that they would want the puppet who is starting to fight back out of the way is perfectly logical.

[Varodoc]

Works both ways tho. He could change his mind in favor of Aegon then name his horse heir the next day. If he is to be considered so senile, then whatever he says cannot be trusted to represent his mind.

To say nothing of the fact that, unlike his reaffirmed support for Rhaenyra which was public, he allegedly said it to one person. Who stands to gain much from this sudden change to the line of succession that fortuitously now cannot be reversed because he's dead.

And finally, we know that what Viserys says matters to literally one person, that being Alicent, and that she's more pawn than player in all this. The Greens were raring to sit Aegon on that throne and would have done so the second Viserys died regardless of what he said. Unless you think Otto, Cole and Larys planned this for years but would go "wait guys, Rheanyra's the heir, we can't possibly crown our chosen candidate that we worked so hard to maneuver into power lol" had Viserys babbled about his tabletop minis instead of Aegon I's prophecy as he died.

The problem is that Daemon doesn't know anything about Alicent's misunderstanding and Viserys' last words. Rhaenys doesn't tell them that Viserys allegedly changed his heir before dying, she only tells them that Viserys died and Aegon was crowned.

So Daemon does not possess this knowledge; in spite of this ignorance on his part, he still accused Alicent of regicide and kinslaying and even called her a "whore" (Vaemond lost his head for using this insult btw).

[Jastall]

The problem is that Daemon doesn't know anything about Alicent's misunderstanding and Viserys' last words. Rhaenys doesn't tell them that Viserys allegedly changed his heir before dying, she only tells them that Viserys died and Aegon was crowned.

So Daemon does not possess this knowledge; in spite of this ignorance on his part, he still accused Alicent of regicide and kinslaying and even called her a "whore" (Vaemond lost his head for using this insult btw).

There's little reason to fixate on what actually is true; from the outside the situation is immensely fishy. Aegon being crowned alone is very much a not OK situation that at best can be viewed as an unlawful provocation, at worst an invitation to war given that last time Viserys spoke in public he reaffirmed in no uncertain terms that Rhaenyra was his heir. Whenever he was then assassinated or not would merely be an offense in addition to this main one from the PoV of the Blacks. There's no way for the Greens to not come out of this one looking like shifty traitors from the moment Aegon is crowned.

Also, Vaemond lost his head because he accused the king's heir in front of said king and her uncle. That the accusation was true changes nothing about the fact that it was very foolish indeed to say it at that moment and to those people. Daemon is in a position that he can say what he likes. Is it fair of Daemon to say that about a woman that in fact remained faithful to her husband despite their terrible marriage, certainly not, but this is Westeros, things not being fair and your birthright protecting your ass in most situations is not only standard operating procedure but the very bedrock of their society.

[Syegfryed]

Mabye if the human race was all replaced by robots you’d be right but in reality humans don’t operate on that level of logic and within the bounds of actual humanity thinking that they would want the puppet who is starting to fight back out of the way is perfectly logical.

You don't need to be a robot to do rational thinking after you cool off your anger, you just need to be normal person.