Do you think Sylvanas was a good character for "female empowerment"?

[Shadowferal]

Destroying your enemies with anything you have up your sleeve? Sign me up.

And that is the only sorry, silly ass reason you hold her up as an ideal for female empowerment. Being a mass murdering slave for the Jailer.

[VladlTutushkin]

And that is the only sorry, silly ass reason you hold her up as an ideal for female empowerment. Being a mass murdering slave for the Jailer.

Not even a good one either. She ended up alive only because her enemies were kind and forgiving. Its the worst frankly - living only because everybody around you has compassion. From a “rargh me conqueror mighty” standpoint.

[Shadowferal]

All of the tragedy in Europe might have been avoided if Russia I think had been allowed to join NATO after the Cold War.

Off-topic but you need a history check behind why NATO existed to begin with if you imagine that is in any way true.

[VladlTutushkin]

Off-topic but you need a history check behind why NATO existed to begin with if you imagine that is in any way true.

One can argue forever of what could have being done differently (and easily in hindsight) but the world is as it is now. And we probably should talk more about WoW until Aucald start banging on the bucket about derailing.

[OwenBurton]

Off-topic but you need a history check behind why NATO existed to begin with if you imagine that is in any way true.

Perhaps, but groups and organizations do evolve over time, their purposes and functions with them. And Russia did try to join at least several times. I just can't imagine in such a timeline, things would be worse than they are today.

I mean, look at the Alliance and the Horde from their inception to their current incarnations. They've BOTH changed and expanded tremendously; the Alliance losing so many human kingdoms and later including new members, the Horde diversifying themselves in Kalimdor and then the Eastern Kingdoms. Change is inevitable, the only question is which direction it takes, positive or negative.

One can argue forever of what could have being done differently (and easily in hindsight) but the world is as it is now. And we probably should talk more about WoW until Aucald start banging on the bucket about derailing.

Okay...so did you ever like Sylvanas as a leader or a character? What kind of direction do you think she should have gone?

[loras]

Off-topic but you need a history check behind why NATO existed to begin with if you imagine that is in any way true.

The Americans were not the sole power in NATO at that point.

While they love to overestimate themself with few limits (often leading to embarrassing and rather costly thorough defeats) before the advent of the social-media enabled tidal waves of nonsense Europe was not fool enough to kowtow to them, and may indeed have been amenable to including Russia into NATO (nowadays that is obviously different, most leaders in Europe have spines weaker than wet noodles while trusting a "protector" that has a historically extremely poor record of actually winning fights).

It was made to keep the Russians out indeed, but if that really was all there had been to it then it would have ceased to exist at that point

[Shadowferal]

Perhaps, but groups and organizations do evolve over time, their purposes and functions with them. And Russia did try to join at least several times. I just can't imagine in such a timeline, things would be worse than they are today.

I mean, look at the Alliance and the Horde from their inception to their current incarnations. They've BOTH changed and expanded tremendously; the Alliance losing so many human kingdoms and including new members, the Horde diversifying themselves in Kalimdor and then the Eastern Kingdoms.

Don't confuse reality with fantasy.

[loras]

One can argue forever of what could have being done differently (and easily in hindsight) but the world is as it is now. And we probably should talk more about WoW until Aucald start banging on the bucket about derailing.

Good point.

[Shadowferal]

It was made to keep the Russians out indeed, but if that really was all there had been to it then it would have ceased to exist at that point

It was brought together by the Brits, merged by a couple of treaties with France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Belgium, to contain Soviet expansion.

[VladlTutushkin]

Perhaps, but groups and organizations do evolve over time, their purposes and functions with them. And Russia did try to join at least several times. I just can't imagine in such a timeline, things would be worse than they are today.

I mean, look at the Alliance and the Horde from their inception to their current incarnations. They've BOTH changed and expanded tremendously; the Alliance losing so many human kingdoms and later including new members, the Horde diversifying themselves in Kalimdor and then the Eastern Kingdoms. Change is inevitable, the only question is which direction it takes, positive or negative.



Okay...so did you ever like Sylvanas as a leader or a character? What kind of direction do you think she should have gone?

Defending your land is fine, being independent is great, but she crossed the line when she became imitating Lich King. Thats just fuckery.

[KOUNTERPARTS]

>serves the Jailer for 6 expansions
>>realizes this
>>>”I will never serve”
>>>>*that’ll teach the Jailer*

[loras]

It was brought together by the Brits, merged by a couple of treaties with France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, and Belgium, to contain Soviet expansion.

A sweet idea at the time, but just another mutable organization nonetheless, and indeed mutable enough especially at the time we are discussing given that its reason for existence was in limbo.

But enough about that.

[Aucald]

This thread is already close to Forbidden Topics on two scores, so let's drop the real-world political discussion as well as anything extending into gender identity topics and focus instead on Sylvanas' character, her role in the story of Warcraft, and whether or not it could be seen as empowering to any degree.

[shoc]

The introduction of the Jailer essentially retconned all individual agency that she had throughout her story and made her subordinate to some no-name man. Prior to the Jailer she had hew own motivations, and the power to act on them. Post Jailer they weren't even her own motivations, and she only did what she could because she was empowered by a man. They wrote her out of a position as monarch and ruler and turned her into a cheap sidekick.

The writing from Legion onwards basically stripped her character of any 'female empowerment' she had.

[Kathranis]

There were good ideas in her Legion-Shadowlands arc but they were really poorly executed.

IMO, here's a real easy fix for the Shadowlands story without even needing to change too much:

• As before, reveal that the Fourth War was all for the sake of pouring souls into the Maw to fuel the Jailer's army.
• As before, Sylvanas appears to be serving the Jailer, who wishes to remake reality in his image.
• Add an overarching questline showing what happened with Sylvanas behind the scenes during the previous expansions.
• Story proceeds more or less the same through Chains of Domination.
• While the Jailer is possessing Anduin, at a pivotal moment, Sylvanas urges Anduin to wrest control from the Jailer.
• Reveal that she was using Anduin, knowing that like Arthas he'd have the will to resist the Jailer's domination.
• Anduin frees the willful dead from the Jailer's control. Anduin is still fucked up by the experience and resents Sylvanas.
• She and Anduin lead the "Mawbreakers" against the Jailer, seeking to bring freedom to the afterlives.
• With the Jailer defeated Sylvanas reclaims her lost soul shard.
• While this is happening, Sire Denathrius reemerges, freed by the Dreadlords, and reveals that everything has gone according to his plans.
• Denathrius reveals that he's been using Zovaal from the start, and not only orchestrated his betrayal but also his banishment to the Maw.
• As before, Sylvanas now has to deal with her two selves, and in integrating the two personas must face the consequences of her actions.
• In Eternity's End, Denathrius takes center stage as the real villain. His loyalists have infiltrated all the Covenants and the Mawsworn. They form a new army, the Dread Inquisition. He binds Zovaal in the armor of Domination and forces him to lead his army to Zereth Mortis.
• Once everything is dealt with and Zovaal is finally defeated, we see glimpses of him before his corruption and get hints of the larger cosmic war he was a pawn in.
• In the end Denathrius achieves his goals in the Sepulcher of the First Ones and escapes with the Dread Inquisition to regions unknown.
• Sylvanas faces her regrets and ultimately decides that the ends justified the means, but accepts Tyrande's judgement and remains in the Maw to atone.
• Anduin accepts her to a degree, but is still traumatized by the events.

[jackofwind]

I think it all really comes down to if a person sees a woman being in a position of extreme power as being empowering.

Because it's pretty clear that Sylvanas' personal actions are generally deplorable.

[Shadowferal]

Hmf...I'd have written her in at the end of WotLK, and replaced Bolvar with her...the Banshee Queen becoming the Lich Queen.
Yea, I know the repercussions here, and writing the forsaken as a whole into the...script that follows would be a challenge, but...

[Grazrug]

Pelagos should have allowed her to return to Azeroth and lead us into the next expansion. Literally nobody cares for dragons.

[Shadowferal]

Pelagos should have allowed her to return to Azeroth and lead us into the next expansion. Literally nobody cares for dragons.

Literally no one gave a shit about Sylvanas...

[VladlTutushkin]

This thread is already close to Forbidden Topics on two scores, so let's drop the real-world political discussion as well as anything extending into gender identity topics and focus instead on Sylvanas' character, her role in the story of Warcraft, and whether or not it could be seen as empowering to any degree.

Here he comes.

- - - Updated - - -

Pelagos should have allowed her to return to Azeroth and lead us into the next expansion. Literally nobody cares for dragons.

If she came back she would be dead, and back in the Shadowlands really damn soon.