Perhaps, but groups and organizations do evolve over time, their purposes and functions with them. And Russia did try to join at least several times. I just can't imagine in such a timeline, things would be worse than they are today.
I mean, look at the Alliance and the Horde from their inception to their current incarnations. They've BOTH changed and expanded tremendously; the Alliance losing so many human kingdoms and later including new members, the Horde diversifying themselves in Kalimdor and then the Eastern Kingdoms. Change is inevitable, the only question is which direction it takes, positive or negative.
Okay...so did you ever like Sylvanas as a leader or a character? What kind of direction do you think she should have gone?
Last edited by OwenBurton; 2022-11-01 at 03:58 PM.
"You see, there is balance in all things. Wisdom etched in our very fur: Black and white. Darkness and light. When the last emperor hid our land from the rest of the world, he also preserved...our ancient enemy, the mantid. So it is with your Alliance and your Horde. They are not strong despite one another; they are strong BECAUSE of one another. You mistake your greatest strength for weakness. Do you see this?"
The Americans were not the sole power in NATO at that point.
While they love to overestimate themself with few limits (often leading to embarrassing and rather costly thorough defeats) before the advent of the social-media enabled tidal waves of nonsense Europe was not fool enough to kowtow to them, and may indeed have been amenable to including Russia into NATO (nowadays that is obviously different, most leaders in Europe have spines weaker than wet noodles while trusting a "protector" that has a historically extremely poor record of actually winning fights).
It was made to keep the Russians out indeed, but if that really was all there had been to it then it would have ceased to exist at that point
This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.
Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.
>serves the Jailer for 6 expansions
>>realizes this
>>>”I will never serve”
>>>>*that’ll teach the Jailer*
This is a signature of an ailing giant, boundless in pride, wit and strength.
Yet also as humble as health and humor permit.
Furthermore, I consider that Carthage Slam must be destroyed.
This thread is already close to Forbidden Topics on two scores, so let's drop the real-world political discussion as well as anything extending into gender identity topics and focus instead on Sylvanas' character, her role in the story of Warcraft, and whether or not it could be seen as empowering to any degree.
"We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead
The introduction of the Jailer essentially retconned all individual agency that she had throughout her story and made her subordinate to some no-name man. Prior to the Jailer she had hew own motivations, and the power to act on them. Post Jailer they weren't even her own motivations, and she only did what she could because she was empowered by a man. They wrote her out of a position as monarch and ruler and turned her into a cheap sidekick.
The writing from Legion onwards basically stripped her character of any 'female empowerment' she had.
Last edited by shoc; 2022-11-01 at 04:44 PM.
You just lost The Game
There were good ideas in her Legion-Shadowlands arc but they were really poorly executed.
IMO, here's a real easy fix for the Shadowlands story without even needing to change too much:
- As before, reveal that the Fourth War was all for the sake of pouring souls into the Maw to fuel the Jailer's army.
- As before, Sylvanas appears to be serving the Jailer, who wishes to remake reality in his image.
- Add an overarching questline showing what happened with Sylvanas behind the scenes during the previous expansions.
- Story proceeds more or less the same through Chains of Domination.
- While the Jailer is possessing Anduin, at a pivotal moment, Sylvanas urges Anduin to wrest control from the Jailer.
- Reveal that she was using Anduin, knowing that like Arthas he'd have the will to resist the Jailer's domination.
- Anduin frees the willful dead from the Jailer's control. Anduin is still fucked up by the experience and resents Sylvanas.
- She and Anduin lead the "Mawbreakers" against the Jailer, seeking to bring freedom to the afterlives.
- With the Jailer defeated Sylvanas reclaims her lost soul shard.
- While this is happening, Sire Denathrius reemerges, freed by the Dreadlords, and reveals that everything has gone according to his plans.
- Denathrius reveals that he's been using Zovaal from the start, and not only orchestrated his betrayal but also his banishment to the Maw.
- As before, Sylvanas now has to deal with her two selves, and in integrating the two personas must face the consequences of her actions.
- In Eternity's End, Denathrius takes center stage as the real villain. His loyalists have infiltrated all the Covenants and the Mawsworn. They form a new army, the Dread Inquisition. He binds Zovaal in the armor of Domination and forces him to lead his army to Zereth Mortis.
- Once everything is dealt with and Zovaal is finally defeated, we see glimpses of him before his corruption and get hints of the larger cosmic war he was a pawn in.
- In the end Denathrius achieves his goals in the Sepulcher of the First Ones and escapes with the Dread Inquisition to regions unknown.
- Sylvanas faces her regrets and ultimately decides that the ends justified the means, but accepts Tyrande's judgement and remains in the Maw to atone.
- Anduin accepts her to a degree, but is still traumatized by the events.
I think it all really comes down to if a person sees a woman being in a position of extreme power as being empowering.
Because it's pretty clear that Sylvanas' personal actions are generally deplorable.
Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Hmf...I'd have written her in at the end of WotLK, and replaced Bolvar with her...the Banshee Queen becoming the Lich Queen.
Yea, I know the repercussions here, and writing the forsaken as a whole into the...script that follows would be a challenge, but...
Pelagos should have allowed her to return to Azeroth and lead us into the next expansion. Literally nobody cares for dragons.