Rotation bots have killed off the end game in FF

[Cthulhu 2020]

You basically come across as that edgy teenager who thinks he's cool because he "doesn't understand" the popular stuff and thinks he's above it. You legit don't even know what qualifies as a sport, yet they're all "primitive" according to you. Never mind that most athletes even in sports like Soccer, one I'm sure you consider quite primitive, are likely more educated than you, they often do a lot more than just "chase a ball". You don't understand why others enjoy being competitive with strangers or why people might get frustrated with a lack of progress in what should be a progress-oriented environment, so that makes them idiotic. Not, you know, just different than you. They're idiotic, simply because they enjoy something you "don't understand".

It's funny though because then you straight up say you had fun competing, just not in the way other people enjoy competing, so other people are idiotic. Literally it's just the fact that people are different and like different things than you.

The raids themselves are already their own form of competition, being first to clear the tier, clearing week 1, or just clearing as soon as you can. Parsing culture is just an excess level of competition far above and beyond what even the developers designed for. And yet, developers begin to design fights with such things in mind. In the past, fights had far more forgiving DPS timers while still having that same level of mechanical difficulty. Now we have stuff like unnerfed P8S, since 4th fights are already designed to be for those min maxers, and the internal testing team was just too good at the fight.

Also would like to point out, this ultra min maxing/parse culture is what is causing certain "weaker" classes to be blocked out of week 1 and week 2 runs because they're not "optimal". I realize having a WAR week 1 was a crutch, but it was only a crutch because the team is designing fights with this ridiculous min maxing parse culture in mind. It's the entire reason the two minute meta has become a thing.


So when parse bros start crying that bots can and do out perform them, I just feel a tad bit of ironic justice.

[Biomega]

I'm surprised I don't see more mythic raiders doing WAs like I do, but I guess there's some value to just knowing your rotation so well that you can essentially ignore it and entirely focus on mechanics.

Rotation is far less of a deal in WoW than people make it out to be. What's more important is specific sequences - there's a few important chunks of abilities going together that's quite important to time properly, and that's usually much more relevant than having the entire rotation pitch perfect. Things like e.g. cooldown damage windows, or specific interactions between 2-3 skills. That's partly because WoW has largely moved away from strict rotations and towards more of a priority-based system in the first place. That's why you don't see the 25-button sequences line up the way they tend to do in e.g. FFXIV or SWTOR where "rotation" has a much more traditional implementation.

Added to that is the fact that a lot of damage is gained by properly timing your damage to fight mechanics. That's where a lot of high-level skill comes from: preparing and predicting a fight's flow properly so you are moving at the most opportune times, handling mechanics not only in order to properly do the fight but also so they cost you the least amount of damage. That is actually very difficult to do, but it gives you FAR more damage than knowing to press filler 2 instead of filler 1 every 2.5 rotation cycles (or whatever).

The way WoW's damage priorities break down is very conducive to a more "intuitive" playstyle in which meshing with the flow of the fight becomes natural to top-end players - and is also something no script or bot could properly do until and unless a fight is completely mapped out in advance; and given how many variables might change something on the fly, the rate of failure would be immense. That's why you don't see these more "involved" scripts at the top end - they don't actually work. But little reminders and queues etc. do have their benefits, and it's not uncommon to see such things on player UIs in some way; usually by making cooldowns very conspicuous, or making their conspicuousness contingent on certain conditions etc.

[Grinning Serpent]

The raids themselves are already their own form of competition, being first to clear the tier, clearing week 1, or just clearing as soon as you can. Parsing culture is just an excess level of competition far above and beyond what even the developers designed for. And yet, developers begin to design fights with such things in mind. In the past, fights had far more forgiving DPS timers while still having that same level of mechanical difficulty. Now we have stuff like unnerfed P8S, since 4th fights are already designed to be for those min maxers, and the internal testing team was just too good at the fight.

Also would like to point out, this ultra min maxing/parse culture is what is causing certain "weaker" classes to be blocked out of week 1 and week 2 runs because they're not "optimal". I realize having a WAR week 1 was a crutch, but it was only a crutch because the team is designing fights with this ridiculous min maxing parse culture in mind. It's the entire reason the two minute meta has become a thing.


So when parse bros start crying that bots can and do out perform them, I just feel a tad bit of ironic justice.

I'll never understand why Square-Enix gives a single shit about what ACT and parses indicate when their explicit statement is that such things are no-nos and no one should be using them.

They aren't part of the game, therefore they shouldn't give a shit about what those programs say, only what their internal testing and design say. Or, alternatively, they should stop trying to play both sides of the street and admit that the game should have an in-game DPS meter and parsing solution. Make the meter show only your DPS, and make it active only by choice not by default and you completely avoid the whole "but it will make players more toxic!" and "wet-pants people will get anxious if they can see their DPS!" things too.

[Granyala]

I'll never understand why Square-Enix gives a single shit about what ACT and parses indicate when their explicit statement is that such things are no-nos and no one should be using them.

They care about perceived difficulty.
The more tools and information the player has, the easier it is to beat the challenge.

So at some point, DEVs start taking these tools into account in order to continue to challenge the playerbase. It's all downhill and dependencies from there as encounters get more and more complex while the DPS checks get tighter and tighter. You could see that in WoW, where some bosses were absurdly hard to manage w/o certain addons.

I hope SE's designers are aware enough to not let it get to that point.

- - - Updated - - -

What an unhealthy, relativistic, and toxic mindset to have that needlessly gatekeeps people.

Have you never competed for anything non-video game related in your life?

I don't even know what "Gatekeeping" is supposed to mean in this context, I see the buzzword used now and then but it makes no sense to me at all. I am not in a position of power, I cannot tell people what to do and what not. I can merely elaborate on my personal views and opinions.

I never competed for anything in my life because I know that I am not competition material.
I am simply not good enough at anything for the competition to be meaningful nor am I interested in the stress level it brings. *shrug*

[Grinning Serpent]

That doesn't make sense. DPS rotations are as simple and idiot-proof as they have ever been and they recently reworked the entire game such that everyone automatically falls into the same 2 minute burst window, further reducing the thought that goes into it.

I don't see how DPS is even on Square-Enix's radar with fight design at this point. It's completely automated, to the point that the only thing left in the game is the mechanics, and those are never any more clear than they need to be for players to grasp them.

[Necromantic]

It's a pug to parse, the whole idea of that pug is every does high dps?? ppl who aren't Bis are not performing optimal shouldn't join those raids that it.
anyways can you leave 2009 ? it feels like i am having a discussion with someone at that year lawl

What do random duty finders have to do with "pug to parse?" I don't even know what that means?

What is "leave 2009?" I do not understand the comment.

[Ghost of Cow]

The raids themselves are already their own form of competition, being first to clear the tier, clearing week 1, or just clearing as soon as you can. Parsing culture is just an excess level of competition far above and beyond what even the developers designed for. And yet, developers begin to design fights with such things in mind. In the past, fights had far more forgiving DPS timers while still having that same level of mechanical difficulty. Now we have stuff like unnerfed P8S, since 4th fights are already designed to be for those min maxers, and the internal testing team was just too good at the fight.

Also would like to point out, this ultra min maxing/parse culture is what is causing certain "weaker" classes to be blocked out of week 1 and week 2 runs because they're not "optimal". I realize having a WAR week 1 was a crutch, but it was only a crutch because the team is designing fights with this ridiculous min maxing parse culture in mind. It's the entire reason the two minute meta has become a thing.

So when parse bros start crying that bots can and do out perform them, I just feel a tad bit of ironic justice.

Well, I don't think that a lot of this stuff has anything to do with "parse culture". The game has always been trending toward these sorts of rigid, choreographed fights with buff windows and whatnot.

Also, players will always create the impression that "bad classes" can't clear stuff or are undesirable just because they do a little less DPS. That goes all the way back to MMOs long before XIV existed.

- - - Updated - - -

What do random duty finders have to do with "pug to parse?" I don't even know what that means?

What is "leave 2009?" I do not understand the comment.

Again with the playing dumb. It was explained to you time and time again.

We all know why you do this, though.

[The Casualty]

I don't even know what "Gatekeeping" is supposed to mean in this context, I see the buzzword used now and then but it makes no sense to me at all. I am not in a position of power, I cannot tell people what to do and what not. I can merely elaborate on my personal views and opinions.

I never competed for anything in my life because I know that I am not competition material.
I am simply not good enough at anything for the competition to be meaningful nor am I interested in the stress level it brings. *shrug*

Gatekeeping can be formal, but in this sense, it's trying to tell others who is and isn't competing or even competition worthy. It's akin to telling someone that they don't belong in a group because they aren't "a true fan", and it does not require explicit power.

One of the things I mentioned was camaraderie. People may be trying to beat you in a competition, but good sportsmanship is them letting you know that you are a worthy opponent and belong, which is the antithesis of "why bother if you can't be number one". "If you ain't first, you're last" was a meme and is not to be taken seriously.

Also, please look at how you view disabled people. Using words like "retarded" and suggesting that they essentially could be viewed as a "different species" in the spirit of competition is not healthy, and pretty offensive.

[Necromantic]

Again with the playing dumb. It was explained to you time and time again.

We all know why you do this, though.

What are you even talking about?

Who is "we?"

[Wrecktangle]

What an unhealthy, relativistic, and toxic mindset to have that needlessly gatekeeps people.

Have you never competed for anything non-video game related in your life? It seems like you put it on a purist pedestal. JFC, that combined with the whole disabled people are essentially another species in the schemes of competition, which is a sick take on it's own.

I've had some state/regional records in my young adult days related to sports - mostly powerlifting, and the camaraderie associated with trying to beat others while you all strive to do your best is nothing like you describe competition to be. Shit, even football, where the point is to hit the other guy as hard as you can, the animosity falls away when you aren't in the immediate situation of trying to hurt the opposition.

What you are describing is poor sportsmanship and a very unhealthy view of competition.

Bingo.

In the past, fights had far more forgiving DPS timers while still having that same level of mechanical difficulty. Now we have stuff like unnerfed P8S, since 4th fights are already designed to be for those min maxers, and the internal testing team was just too good at the fight.

???

Twin conflags were INCREDIBLY tight back in 2.0, and so were the dudes who captured you. SCoB almost in it's entirely had pretty tight DPS checks. Nael had like 4 in there. What about the hands on Living Liquid? Top groups had like no idea pull to pull if they'd make it.

The problem isn't ultra min maxing/parse culture in a negative sense, but rather a positive one. As players and job balance get better over time, the content has a need to adapt with it. I've seen some tight DPS checks in some the more recent expansion tiers, but nothing like the terror of not knowing if you'd get my earlier examples down/right.

Also would like to point out, this ultra min maxing/parse culture is what is causing certain "weaker" classes to be blocked out of week 1 and week 2 runs because they're not "optimal". I realize having a WAR week 1 was a crutch, but it was only a crutch because the team is designing fights with this ridiculous min maxing parse culture in mind. It's the entire reason the two minute meta has become a thing.

I haven't seen "weaker" classes being blocked out of week 1/2 runs? The 2 minute meta became a thing because the designers gave everyone a dozen buffs on 90-120s CD instead of developing a more dynamic system.

So when parse bros start crying that bots can and do out perform them, I just feel a tad bit of ironic justice.

You'd probably be pretty annoyed if they developed a bot that literally moves your character and solves the mechanic for you too right? For some of us, the mechanics are generally pretty easy or trivial once solved so the only challenging piece is executing your optimal output, automating that takes another piece of the fun away.

[Ghost of Cow]

What an unhealthy, relativistic, and toxic mindset to have that needlessly gatekeeps people.

Have you never competed for anything non-video game related in your life? It seems like you put it on a purist pedestal. JFC, that combined with the whole disabled people are essentially another species in the schemes of competition, which is a sick take on it's own.

I have, and I can kinda understand the sentiment. I suppose it depends on how much of a connection you have to wider groups/competitions/etc.

Like I said, I'm not going to consider myself a "competitive player" because I play in Plat in SC2 or won some local MtG tournaments or got the 5,516th fastest time speedrunning something. I'll still play to win when I do play, but I'm not going to think of myself as some great competitor, either.

Maybe it's not the healthiest or most self-affirming mindset, but I think I prefer it over winning a match in Silver and imagining myself to be a great competitor or something.

[Soikona]

Crazy sometimes how few people get this lol. We are a highly competitive species to the core, in every way imaginable.

Anyway wow has hekili, but you still need to actually hit buttons and react to things so it's more of a guideline program

I have used both hekili and WAs. If you understand your class, I don’t see the difference between the two.

But on topic, this doesn’t surprise me. The rotations are very static in FF14 are they not? The best thing wow did was going away from a rotation to a priority system. These rotation bots died over night cause of it. I think some still exist but not to the extent they did at least

[The Casualty]

I have, and I can kinda understand the sentiment. I suppose it depends on how much of a connection you have to wider groups/competitions/etc.

Like I said, I'm not going to consider myself a "competitive player" because I play in Plat in SC2 or won some local MtG tournaments or got the 5,516th fastest time speedrunning something. I'll still play to win when I do play, but I'm not going to think of myself as some great competitor, either.

Maybe it's not the healthiest or most self-affirming mindset, but I think I prefer it over winning a match in Silver and imagining myself to be a great competitor or something.

I think it's what you are looking for when you go into it. It doesn't sound like you are going into - say SC2 - to get to a certain rank or whathaveyou, and that's great. If someone else wanted to strive to be the top in that bracket or get to the next bracket, also great.

In the context of FFXIV, a lot of folks don't even have the time commitment available to try for World First. I can't imagine having the availability to raid for 16 hours a day for a week+ straight, like what was required for DSR. Knowing that's not something that a lot of people can commit to, others might try to go for server first, or data center (assuming it's less competitive for WF). Some people might look toward speed, execution, or parse - none of which really require that huge block of a time commitment. Others might try to beat out their friend groups to see who gets the first clear. The latter of which is why a lot of games will let you sort to your friend's list on ladders/seasons.

As to your last point - I think the point of the competition is simply to enjoy the competition itself. When people start attaching self-worth to it is when it becomes unhealthy.

[Soikona]

And I'm glad people who do this kind of thing rightfully get reported.

Anybody who goes into a PUG and harasses people for not meeting some personal standard of theirs should be banned. That's exactly what's wrong with the community.

Is it? When the pug group has specific requirements to join and you don’t meet them, why is it bad to kick them? They didn’t fulfil their part.

[eschatological]

Still FFXIV issue is its brain dead easy and there isn't much in the way of proccs, snapshotting, or other dynamic changes to the rotation. You are behind the enemy it's 123, you are on the side it's 145, aoe is 678, and so on..

Is the bold true? I thought there was snapshotting of all DOTs in FFXIV, a mechanic I miss from WoW, where DOTs have largely become dynamic. As a MNK, I always want to fit in my Demolish under as many CDs as I can.

Or are you saying it's not as important because the buffs are so statically timed that it doesn't matter because you can snapshot your DOTs readily and easily every cycle?

One thing I've noticed about FFXIV is that there are no proc-chance buffs on aaaaaaaaaannnything. I know they cause RNG that drives people crazy in WoW when someone gets good procs, but the benefit of procced buffs (as opposed to buffs proactively applied by players on CD/by rotation) is it can potentially change your priorities/rotation while the buff is active, if the buff is strong enough. There have been procced buffs strong enough in WoW to even justify delaying your own CD slightly to line up with the buff, which is damn near crazy in FFXIV. That's the kind of stuff I miss from WoW gameplay.

ETA: the most FFXIV has in this regards is what people would call "pooling resources." IE, if you're a dancer, you try and save 4 feathers (but never overcapping feathers) for your buff windows.

ETA2: One thing that strikes me about FFXIV is how little I have to care about what the rest of my team is doing. You coordinate buffs (which is usuallly "pop them every 2 minutes, don't drift it") before the pull, and then the pull starts, and I don't think about my teammates again til the fight is over. If you need to spread while having an AoE marker on you, there's 8 spots to spread to, 4 in melee (for the two tanks and two melee), and 4 in ranged, and you just assign those spots, and you don't have to react to anything. This was a bigger problem in a game like, say, GW2, where the trinity has devolved into role-less classes, so you're just doing your rotation against a boss with 3 other people, but it's prevalent in FFXIV as well. Meanwhile, in WoW, to be a good endgame mythic raider, you need to be aware of what your team is doing at all times. Part of this is the larger group size - in a 20 man raid there might be up to 12-14 ranged+healers making things cramped - but a lot of it is that what your teammates do affects how you have to play. There's a lot of "drop off this bad area somewhere" in WoW, and it can change from pull to pull based on the randomly-placed boss mechanics (another thing that doesn't happen in FFXIV), so you have to adjust on the fly, both as the person dropping off, say, a Defile on Heroic Lich King, and as the people avoiding that person's Defile.

[Pannonian]

One thing I've noticed about FFXIV is that there are no proc-chance buffs on aaaaaaaaaannnything.

Play DNC. You have a 50% chance to get a proc on 6 abilities. Or do you mean buff in a sense that it is some +X% dmg?

One thing that strikes me about FFXIV is how little I have to care about what the rest of my team is doing. You coordinate buffs (which is usuallly "pop them every 2 minutes, don't drift it") before the pull, and then the pull starts, and I don't think about my teammates again til the fight is over. If you need to spread while having an AoE marker on you, there's 8 spots to spread to, 4 in melee (for the two tanks and two melee), and 4 in ranged, and you just assign those spots, and you don't have to react to anything.

Well, this depends on what you're doing. Now, my group is not the best in progress, we're only at P8S, but currently we are learning to act as 2-man teams for snakes/tetra/octaflare. So i'd aargue it depends.

On a personal level, i feel FF14 is much more of a team game than Wow (at least on a subjective level) as a 8 man team is much more intimate than 25.

[Grinning Serpent]

Also, please look at how you view disabled people. Using words like "retarded" and suggesting that they essentially could be viewed as a "different species" in the spirit of competition is not healthy, and pretty offensive.

I don't get it. Retarded has the same definition and usages as stupid, dumb, idiot, moron, fool, nimrod, and many, many other words that the bad word police don't even bat an eye at. Why, out of all of those words with very similar definitions and uses, did they fixate on retarded specifically? I've never been able to get a straight answer on it.

Disabled folks get their own competition brackets - for example, folks with disabilities compete in the Special Olympics, not the regular Olympics, because it's probably unfair in one direction or another to make a guy in a wheelchair race a guy with a whole body.

It's the exact same as separating men and women, separating by weight class, etc in various sports and competitions. You control for as many external, uncontrollable factors as possible to give everyone an equal starting place.

[StillMcfuu]

Is the bold true? I thought there was snapshotting of all DOTs in FFXIV, a mechanic I miss from WoW, where DOTs have largely become dynamic. As a MNK, I always want to fit in my Demolish under as many CDs as I can.

Or are you saying it's not as important because the buffs are so statically timed that it doesn't matter because you can snapshot your DOTs readily and easily every cycle?

One thing I've noticed about FFXIV is that there are no proc-chance buffs on aaaaaaaaaannnything. I know they cause RNG that drives people crazy in WoW when someone gets good procs, but the benefit of procced buffs (as opposed to buffs proactively applied by players on CD/by rotation) is it can potentially change your priorities/rotation while the buff is active, if the buff is strong enough. There have been procced buffs strong enough in WoW to even justify delaying your own CD slightly to line up with the buff, which is damn near crazy in FFXIV. That's the kind of stuff I miss from WoW gameplay.

ETA: the most FFXIV has in this regards is what people would call "pooling resources." IE, if you're a dancer, you try and save 4 feathers (but never overcapping feathers) for your buff windows.

ETA2: One thing that strikes me about FFXIV is how little I have to care about what the rest of my team is doing. You coordinate buffs (which is usuallly "pop them every 2 minutes, don't drift it") before the pull, and then the pull starts, and I don't think about my teammates again til the fight is over. If you need to spread while having an AoE marker on you, there's 8 spots to spread to, 4 in melee (for the two tanks and two melee), and 4 in ranged, and you just assign those spots, and you don't have to react to anything. This was a bigger problem in a game like, say, GW2, where the trinity has devolved into role-less classes, so you're just doing your rotation against a boss with 3 other people, but it's prevalent in FFXIV as well. Meanwhile, in WoW, to be a good endgame mythic raider, you need to be aware of what your team is doing at all times. Part of this is the larger group size - in a 20 man raid there might be up to 12-14 ranged+healers making things cramped - but a lot of it is that what your teammates do affects how you have to play. There's a lot of "drop off this bad area somewhere" in WoW, and it can change from pull to pull based on the randomly-placed boss mechanics (another thing that doesn't happen in FFXIV), so you have to adjust on the fly, both as the person dropping off, say, a Defile on Heroic Lich King, and as the people avoiding that person's Defile.

Actually I believe you are right, there is snapshotting in FF14. But yeah, it's because of the highly rigid way you snapshot, I sort of forgot about it.
Technically WoW still had snapshotting in a similar manner, empowered gouge pops in my mind as an example.

[Hotmail]

Rotation bots and scripters have also ruined high end WoW PvP. There's not much that can be done about it, the devs barely investigate those reports.

[T-34]

Gatekeeping can be formal, but in this sense, it's trying to tell others who is and isn't competing or even competition worthy. It's akin to telling someone that they don't belong in a group because they aren't "a true fan", and it does not require explicit power.

One of the things I mentioned was camaraderie. People may be trying to beat you in a competition, but good sportsmanship is them letting you know that you are a worthy opponent and belong, which is the antithesis of "why bother if you can't be number one". "If you ain't first, you're last" was a meme and is not to be taken seriously.

Also, please look at how you view disabled people. Using words like "retarded" and suggesting that they essentially could be viewed as a "different species" in the spirit of competition is not healthy, and pretty offensive.

The problem with your concept of "gatekeeping" is that you expect other people to "play" with you even if they don't want to.
Or with other words you value your own fun above other people's fun.

You should rather seek people who share your value of fun, whether that is based on your values or your abilities (handicaps).
Expecting that people that are higher skilled than you should carry you is the definition of toxic entitlement.

that is the main problem with FFXIV. That it actively encourages toxic entitlement.