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  1. #241
    I prefer a sub. By making people pay to play the game you get rid of many toxic people who will keep playing f2p. Having a sub acts as a filter of players and WoW playerbase is already too toxic for that amount to increase.

    Besides, 13€ a month is not a huge amount of money for someone who works. WoW can be one of the cheapest hobbies thinking about the number of hours played. I wouldn't think it's outdated when there are many sub models for services like Netflix, Apple music, Amazon prime...etc. I would argue as another user said that you only get one game with the sub (well two if we count classic) compared to other thinks like Netflix in which you get a huge catalogue of movies and tv series or compared to a game pass, but that's it. I wouldn't call it outdated really and I prefer it to the f2p model. We would have to pay for every bit of content we would want to play, it would be even more pricy that way.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoto View Post
    That's the thing though you don't NEED that extra mount, your sub fee alone gives you the ability to collect over 500 mounts maybe more yet because Blizzard add an extra mount into the store every few months we should get rid of the sub because of it? I've played wow since the middle of TBC and probably bought 2 mounts from the store, if the game was f2p and half of the playerbase was like me and didn't buy anything from the store, where would they make money from?

    Then you'd end up with all the cool mounts, pets and gear being from the store and people complaining, despite being f2p, they can't earn cool shit in-game. Fact of the matter is people want f2p, want all the cool shit for free and still want all the content in the world despite not wanting to give Blizzard any money.

    Blizzard would have to make the store an absolute scummy shitfest to make money from it, they'd have to make it so p2w the game probably wouldn't survive, all because people don't want to pay 15 dollars a month? then just don't.
    the game will probably head to the Games Pass, which will make the sub for wow effectively Free, or $1 a month.

    the store is going to change either way.

    but no matter what you do, some part of the playerbase will always, and i mean always cry about it.

    if the game was FREE to Play, people would honestly care less about the Cool Tmogs, or Mounts in the store, as they could spend 1-2 months sub on it, and then just wait. for something else later.

    Free to play games, make more money than sub based games, as more people get in play, and get hooked.

    Sub based games have less players overall, in Longevity than other F2p games, due to this fact.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  3. #243
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Most free to play games offer subscriptions so it is far from outdated. Though I'd love to see the WoW one become lower in price. It just seems high for what you get when you look at other services. If they make it a Blizzard subscription for $15 so you get benefits in D4, OW2, HS, and whatever other games they make then it would be worth it. A game-pass lite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kikazz View Post
    the game will probably head to the Games Pass, which will make the sub for wow effectively Free, or $1 a month.
    Doubtful. Microsoft didn't do that with their other MMO games.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    You waste $15 daily on some coffee? lol
    That is literally 2 coffees here in Melbourne…is that really outrageous when you think of it as 2 coffees?

    Yes it’s expensive but it isn’t if you can afford it also some people factor it into their budgets

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbidaggy View Post
    That is literally 2 coffees here in Melbourne…is that really outrageous when you think of it as 2 coffees?

    Yes it’s expensive but it isn’t if you can afford it also some people factor it into their budgets
    I mean, do we talk about actual coffee here or is this the usual sugary hipster mess with trace amounts of coffee in it? That coffee habit would be more expensive than someone smoking 2 packs daily here and probably about as healthy.

    PS: Ignoring that it would obviously be a canadian dollars aka a factor of 0.7.
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2022-11-03 at 03:44 AM.
    You are welcome, Metzen. I hope you won't fuck up my underground expansion idea.

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Hambo94 View Post
    Just for the record I totally understood exactly what you were saying about your own personal experience. I am not surprised hearing it either, I think its probably more common to have your experience than not and the game is certainly far less appealing to new/younger players than it was back 10 years ago. Obviously we cant know 100% what the new player intake looks like but exactly that, all we have to go off is our own experiences and I understood what you meant.

    Some people on this forum have serious problems being able to interpret and understand what others are saying, and it almost always seems to be centered around their inability to separate someones subjective opinion/personal experience, anecdotal evidence etc, from fact. They equate everything to a fact, and imply that everything you said was meant as a fact and or literally, even if they know that facts (such as in this case) are impossible to obtain and it should be an automatic given that we're talking about personal experience, let alone the fact that it was absolutely crystal clear from your wording that it was that anyway

    I totally understood what you were throwing out there though, nothing unreasonable about what you said.
    Yeah man, why can't you just say completely unsubstantiated, unsourced nonsense and be taken seriously on this forum?! It must be their problem!

  7. #247
    15$ isn't too much - is strange argument. We don't talk about $15 being too few or too much. We talk about is game worth it or not and is it healthy for game to overstretch content so much to keep players subbed. Game can cost up to 420$ for two years. It's cost of 7 AAA games. For what? For playing exactly the same content for months? Do you understand, that motivations to do content are just illusions and psychological tricks? There is actually just dozen of WQs and dailies in ZM. And you have to do them for months. Do you understand, that it's exactly the same, as replaying single player game again, again and again? It's just carrot on a stick, that justifies this grind for you. Some ephemeral "rewards", gated behind endless amount of time-gating and RNG.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by mbit2 View Post
    You're just paying a sub on top of dealing with p2w mechanics. And that's precisely why people laugh at the those still defending paying a sub. All the supposed benefits of paying a sub are long gone.
    What p2w mechanics are we dealing with ?

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Kikazz View Post
    Free to play games, make more money than sub based games, as more people get in play, and get hooked.

    Sub based games have less players overall, in Longevity than other F2p games, due to this fact.
    Yes, f2p games have more overall players, but that doesn't mean they are all active. Anyone that signed up with an email is counted as a player.

    You also have a contradicting part and I quote, ("free to play games, make more money than sub based games."-kikazz)

    Is it really free to play if you have to pay for anything that is relevant or good? Like I've been saying in my previous posts f2p=free to pay.

    You also can't try and compare longevity when talking about wow. Other sub based games sure. But, wow has been around for almost 20 years. It is older than some of the people playing it.

  10. #250
    Sub model is fine, but you need to be the target demographic.

  11. #251
    Sub fee - is something for players, who use paid chat for social interaction. For all others it isn't justified. For example for now I'm restricted to leveling content, because group content would put social obligations on me and restrict my schedule and solo endgame is terrible FOMO-fest on dopamine isles with dung-fly design and artificial bottlenecking. Is it worth full sub fee? I don't think so. Sub fee should be paid for something, that is worth it. If devs can't or don't want to provide such content - then they don't deserve sub fee.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    Sub fee - is something for players, who use paid chat for social interaction. For all others it isn't justified. For example for now I'm restricted to leveling content, because group content would put social obligations on me and restrict my schedule and solo endgame is terrible FOMO-fest on dopamine isles with dung-fly design and artificial bottlenecking. Is it worth full sub fee? I don't think so. Sub fee should be paid for something, that is worth it. If devs can't or don't want to provide such content - then they don't deserve sub fee.
    If it's not worth a sub fee, it's not worth playing at all, unless you place almost no value on your time.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Kikazz View Post
    Free to play games, make more money than sub based games, as more people get in play, and get hooked.
    That's not really accurate.

    For most players a f2p game ends up being mostly that ... free. They may make some purchases here and there, but overall it ends up being much less expensive than maintaining a subscription.

    It's the whales that make f2p games their money, and they are a quite small percentage of the player base. We know with certainty that about 20% of the population pays about 80% of a game's income. If you're not a whale then a f2p game will almost always be a better value than a subscription game.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by VMSmith View Post
    That's not really accurate.

    For most players a f2p game ends up being mostly that ... free. They may make some purchases here and there, but overall it ends up being much less expensive than maintaining a subscription.

    It's the whales that make f2p games their money, and they are a quite small percentage of the player base. We know with certainty that about 20% of the population pays about 80% of a game's income. If you're not a whale then a f2p game will almost always be a better value than a subscription game.
    What this means is that F2P games, and sub games, are like ships that pass in the night. The money is coming from different sets of players for each. So when the F2P market is saturated, the sub market may be largely unaffected.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If it's not worth a sub fee, it's not worth playing at all, unless you place almost no value on your time.
    I still like game design and game mechanics. It's still great to make new character, customize him and level through Draenor. And SL is just 2nd xpack in a row, that was so bad. Previous xpacks (except may be MOP) always had something for casual player to do. Even Legion, where all this mess started, wasn't actually so bad.

    I don't care about Wow 11.0, if it's not solo-MMO. No half-measures - just perfect xpack.

  16. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by WowIsDead64 View Post
    I still like game design and game mechanics. It's still great to make new character, customize him and level through Draenor. And SL is just 2nd xpack in a row, that was so bad. Previous xpacks (except may be MOP) always had something for casual player to do. Even Legion, where all this mess started, wasn't actually so bad.
    Well, you still consider the benefit from playing a part of the game to be worth the value of your time. But the value of your time is going to be so much higher than $15/month that unless the cost/benefit is balanced on a knife edge, add $15/month shouldn't change it from "play" to "not play". That is, unless you value your time hardly at all, far below minimum wage.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The money is coming from different sets of players for each.
    Yes, that would be correct, I believe.

    In a sub game like WoW everyone pays the same amount with a small variation due to the limited cash shop. There's a bit of whaling with the token, but there's no telling how much of an effect that is having on player's spending habits.

    In a f2p game the game is funded by a very small minority of the players, with all the non/low-paying players existing as content for those that pay (which is the value the non-payers bring to the game).

    I've played Star Trek Online for two years now and have spent about $400, which is comparable to subbing to WoW for the same two years and purchasing an expansion. But because of the purchases I've made in STO I have no reason to ever spend another penny on the game if I don't want to. One of those purchases was the "lifetime subscription" which provides a Zen (in-game store currency) stipend so that funds any further purchases I ever care to make. I'm not even a minnow with my spending and I'm going to get exceptional value for my spending, assuming the game continues for any more length of time.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    I’m surprised the game still hasn’t dropped the sub by now. Its one thing that keeps a lot of people from playing and even trying the game,
    Uhh... its F2P at low levels. So people can "try the game" for free. So.. .whut?

    Quote Originally Posted by ablib View Post
    Back in the day, buying BC, Wrath, or Cata was no question, nowadays, people may be hesitant about that up front cost.
    Except you can try the game enough to see if you like it for free.

    Historically, the box fee is what pays for content (not the sub, like most people think).
    Ehh... no. The box fee might cover the initial development costs of an expansion, but the remaining half or more of the content that comes out in later patches is NOT funded by the box fee. Not remotely. Now, this is not to say that that is all the sub pays for - the Subs MORE than cover continued development AND give Blizzard a pile of profit. But the box fee does not cover all the development and literally never did.

    Where Netflix, all of their content is funded through their subscriptions.
    And mountains of debt. Netflix has had trouble making their debt payments. Thats why they are introducing an ad-based Tier, because while their revenue is quite high, their gross is pitiful. Some quarters they dont make an actual profit.

    Charging for content separately doesn't work anymore in 2022. This would be like if Netflix charged us 19.99 a month for their service, but at the same time, charged us 2.99 per episode of Stranger Things as a separate fee. Netflix would tank if they did that.
    Disney Plus would like a word. Because they do that. You pay a sub AND they charge up front for movies unless you want to wait several more months. And they are already more profitable than Netflix, so... yeah.

    If you think that isn't coming (Subs + Paid content, and/or Subs + Commercials) for every service... you're in for a rude awakening.

    That being said, im in no way against the sub fee. Never been against it since the game launched (and even back then people complained about the price). It keeps the quality of the game higher (if you dont think thats true, you need to check out the "free" competition. The FoMo and ads for micros are insane and immediately put me off. But 15$ a month is nothin. I cant even go to a movie for that around here. Even if i only played four or five hours a week (mind, im not playing at all right now but thats mostly because i have a giant ass backlog of single player games id like to get through one day) thats still insane value vs most AAA games where you're out 60-70 bucks for a 15-20 hour game, and then 10-15$ each for 3-4 DLCs.

    People complaining about the sub need to examine exactly how 15$ a month for 20+ hours of entertainment is somehow "bad" to them and maybe realize that if that is somehow the case, they need to either get their shizz together financially, or just recognize that maybe MMOs arent for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmic Janitor View Post
    I mean, do we talk about actual coffee here or is this the usual sugary hipster mess with trace amounts of coffee in it? That coffee habit would be more expensive than someone smoking 2 packs daily here and probably about as healthy.

    PS: Ignoring that it would obviously be a canadian dollars aka a factor of 0.7.
    Ironically, "real" coffee that isn't total shit is more expensive than Starbucks' coffee-adjascent drinks. My wife is a coffee afficianado. GOOD Coffee, even for brewing it yourself, is expensive AF. If you just want something vaguely coffee like (frozen crystals/Folgers shit) then maybe not. But thats kind of like saying you love beer and then crackig open a Natty Ice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I have a concept of what it's like living on a minimum wage job. Money is very tight. In that situation, spending your time playing a game, rather than earning even more money, is inflicting a huge opportunity cost on yourself. And that's true even if the game is free. The $15/month changes this hardly at all.
    Only thing ill disagree with here, having been dirt ass poor for a long time, is that you CANNOT simply do nothing but work to make more money. You MUST have idle time/down time/fun time or you the mental damage you will do to yourself is staggering.

    But i agree that the 15/month thing there is not moving the needle. If you cant afford 15/month, then yeah, you need to be working on your situation (if not actually working for money). Get some books from the library for your liesure activity or something.

    When i was broke AF, i could still afford WoW. In fact, WoW got me through some tough times precisely BECAUSE of how cheap it was as a dollars/hour of entertainment proposition. THere's very little else you can do for less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adamas102 View Post
    Or alternatively, it's one of if not THE most expensive video game ever. I stopped paying the sub fee when the token started taking care of that but that still means I shelled out over $2,000 just to play WoW from vanilla through to WoD (just on sub and box costs).
    Okay? Thats... 200$ a year?

    Even though individually it almost certainly has the highest play time of all my games, I'm sure it's considerably less than my total playtime for my next top 10 games combined which definitely cost less than $2,000.
    No fucking chance unless you barely played WoW at all during that entire time. You're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. Unless one of those games is something like The Sims or something else that is heavily modable that you sank thousands of hours into, in which case it was only "cheaper" because of someone elses free labor.

    Most people have no actual concept of how many hours they put into WoW.

    I haven't played regularly since Legion, and by the end of Legion, playing fairly casually for at least half the life of WoW up until then (played casually but frequently/lots of time from Vanilla-Mid LK) JUST my main character had 200 DAYS of in-game time. The others easily add up to another 50-70 days (i didnt start playing Alts much until LK), and i was fairly casual from the end if LK through the launch of BfA (and actually missed the last eight months of Cata and all of Pandaria u ntil 3 weeks before WoD Launch). Call it 250 days. Thats roughly 6,000 hours... or 3$ an hour at the 2,000$ claim. And, again, i was casual or not even playing for the better part of half that time. You cant do shit for 3$ an hour. Though that number still doesn't seem right, since even if you only played 40 hours a month (thats only 9 hours or so a WEEK), thats only 37 cents an hour. Box fees are not that high and up until the last two or three expansions gave you a free month of game time.

    Whereas the average AAA game runs 60+$ and usually lasts less than 20 hours.

    Also, why is the movie theater example the ONLY one that people ever bring up? Are most WoW players only aware of video games and movies as avenues of entertainment?

    There are plenty of cheaper hobbies than WoW out there if you branch out beyond this super narrow scope.
    Name two. We'll wait. There are other things that people do for entertainment, of course. But every one i can think of costs more than 15$. Zoo? 20$. Going for a walk in the park? Gotta have a State Park pass (70$ for the year here), and live close enough to a State Park. The local town parks are just small fields. Youd be waking in circles. Biking? Hideously expensive. High Hundreds for a decent bike that wont leave you a criple if you ride it every day. Running? My wife runs. Two pairs of shoes a year at 150$+ each. ("Get cheaper shoes" - yeah, if you want to be a fucking cripple in 10 years. You do you, i guess). Going out to dinner with your SO? Sure. Thats about 50-70$ at a modest place around here. Tabletop gaming? The 3 core D&D books are 100$. Supplemental books are 30-50$ each. While i dont play D&D anymore, i do do tabletop gaming with my friends a few times a month. Thats a 40$ day (gas, food, etc). And that is only because im not the one buying the games - We're currently doing Gloomhaven, which is 300$+ with basic add-ons people buy (removable stickers, card sleves, etc) Reading? Even an average reader clears two books a week (thats pretty slow, honestly, if reading is your major hobby) - paperbacks these days are about 10$. eBooks aren't a ton cheaper.

    I really dont think you have any idea what you're talking about.
    Last edited by Kagthul; 2022-11-03 at 08:14 AM.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Roflfaceroll View Post
    You also have a contradicting part and I quote, ("free to play games, make more money than sub based games."-kikazz)

    Is it really free to play if you have to pay for anything that is relevant or good? Like I've been saying in my previous posts f2p=free to pay.
    its not really a contradiction,

    Sub based games - Forced Payment
    F2p Games with shops - optional payment methods.


    yes most F2p games add aspects that are sped up with ingame stuff, but wow kind of has that already with Token and Boosts.

    and i do agree F2p is Free to Pay, but also you can play at a slower pace than EVERYONE without paying, the Free to Pay option only speeds up your process versus everyone elses.
    Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler

    If you are trying to AE tank and a bad dps is attacking the wrong target and dies, we call that justice.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Nokami View Post
    Hobbies ain't cheap, especially not in the first world.

    Edit: I generally think that this argument comes from people that really have no hobbies.
    All sorts of this.

    Even just *reading* is more expensive than WoW unless you have a fucking MAGNIFICENT library within walking distance. Or are a thief.

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