Do you think Sylvanas was a good character for "female empowerment"?

[Nymrohd]

If what happened to Sylvanas is meant to illustrate violence against women then the fact that she was completely defined by that violence, had it alter her personality into a nihilist and someone willing to inflict pain on others is the opposite of empowerment.

I'd say the best example of female empowerment in Warcraft is Aegwyn. Bad ass bitch without having to sacrifice her female identity.

[OwenBurton]

I don't consider Danuser's fanfic to be canon. To me, Sylvanas will always just be that evil despot of the Eastern Kingdoms who dug up graces, resurrected people, and then told them to "serve me or die" before she proceeded to enslave more people and conquer more kingdoms, all the while conducting horiffic Unit 731 experimentation upon captives within the bowels of the Undercity. She was always an mustache twirling evil character, and this post-modernist trend of trying to "humanize" and "redeem" villains is very tiresome. Villains can't just be irredeemably evil anymore.

She had a decent character design back then.

Sylvanas was indeed once very popular, I don't think we should dispute that at least. But then her actions post-Cataclysm and starting the war which killed so many characters on both sides twisted her image considerably. Now, although she might still have some firmly devoted fans, she is about as popular as Nathanos, I think. Her development was simply too one-dimensional and skewed for her to be interesting, regardless of whether you liked her ot not.

Helya was a far better figure for 'female empowerment'.

Was given a shit offer, refused, was forced on and spent every minute after fighting back.

Shame they portrayed her as a villain.

Helya was a tragic character indeed. Of course, that doesn't excuse her later spiteful actions against Azeroth...but lots of people would probably want revenge after centuries to millennia of endless torment and anguish imposed upon you against their will. I wonder if they might redeem her, especially that her continued portrayal might be awkward given her background and Blizzard's recent troubles. They've redeemed characters arguably just as bad. Look at Grom or Kael'thas for example.

[Kithelle]

She was a pawn since Undeath and her greatest feats of power were handed to him by a man, if these young girls think Sylvanas is some kind of feminist icon...thanks to retcons she basically never was that character they think she is.

[Coolface330]

There was no female empowerment during Clint Eastwood, Wildwest TV.

So I'ma assume they pulled the term female empowerment out of their ass.

It's how you prove bullshitters - was it around during the Wild West?

Exhibit A - There were gangs during the wild west. An infinite number of groups of people that commit crime together -gang.

There was no mafia - aka a singular group, no other, that commit crime together.

Exhibit B - There were opium dens during the Wild West. And Heroine is considered still bad today. Makes sense.

Marijuana wasn't the devil's lettuce during the Wild west - a plant that existed since the beginning of time. So accusing marijuana of being evil - they pulled that outta their ass.

In my opinion*

[NoiseTank13]

snip

I didn't know they made AI generated MMO-C posters

[Raisei]

Sylvanas was, and perhaps still is, one of the most popular characters in the franchise, and this is a serious question. I've noticed in the past on the official forums and Reddit, that LOTS of active players, especially younger female players, seem to always defend and admire her, even after the Burning of Teldrassil.

Their reasoning was that she was a deeply traumatized female who was able to overcome and harden herself through her trials and become a strong individual with very great force of will - that she was able to assert her agency as a female character and leader, a hunter and a banshee, an undead elf and an iconic Horde character. She was extremely beautiful and deadly and graceful, and yet she had her nuanced moments, such as her famous Lament of the Highborne scene, a very complex and relatable character to lots of young women and female gamers who admired her in equal parts for her tenacity and ruthlessness.

Even Patty herself stated in the past that she faced significant domestic abuse when she was a young girl, and she channels some of her inner pain and anguish into her voice acting, which is perhaps what makes it so realistically engaging and potent for so many people.

Of course, those against that perspective would be that Sylvanas was a strong female character, but one who started Azeroth's fourth global war and committed what most Alliance and night elf players at least consider genocide. Although - she has been "redeemed" somewhat, and is now relatively "whole" and complete, and feels remorse for her actions - I recommend her novel to those who did not read it, it was not perfect, but much better than many other books today.
https://www.amazon.com/Sylvanas-Worl.../dp/B08ZXZDNVS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxWw-6Ipyuc

Let me say it like this: No. She wasn't.

The trauma she went through broke her, not just physically but mentally too and I do not think that she ever recovered from it. Rather she was and is mentally unstable and if she isn't a clinical psychopath then she is very close to it. The crimes she commited in her pursuit of Arthas and then Immortality are not simply "ruthless", they are monstrous and at some point the pity that one can have for her after what she went through just isn't enough to outweigh the thousands of innocents she slaughtered.

I do not know how anyone is supposed to relate to that? Do we relate to serial killers and mass murderers? Maybe some do, but in general no. I do not find someone that murders a bunch of farmers only to have their stitched together corpses partol their hometown anymore relateable then I relate to Ed Gein replacing a lamp shade with human skin.

Admirable? No. Not even in the slightest. Maybe we can say that she had a skill for manipulating desperate people and for lying to get what she wanted, but are those admirable traits?

She wasn't even particularly "strong". Whenever things didn't go her way, she would blame others and usually violently made her feelings known. Throwing a tantrum isn't a mark of strength by any means.

I understand that there is at the moment a mindset especially in Hollywood productions that consider a "strong woman" one that behaves like an asshole to everyone around her until she gets her will and then is admired for her "tenacity" (see Galadriel in Rings of Power), but that is probably one of the most ridiculous things comming out of this place that we have seen yet.
An asshole is just that, an asshole. There is nothing admirable, relateable or strong about being one. And Sylvanas is most definately one.

I would be very worried if a girl would take her as a role model...

[thilicen]

A woman who admittedly was strong in life, killed, denied death, and then completely enslaved, played like a fucking fiddle for over a decade, only then to be chased away and forced to hide away with her puppetmaster where she is ultimately taken down for good. Empowerment lol.

[Raisei]

The character itself was not created by her.

Only her most recent actions can be attributed to Golden.

And Sylvanas has been a terrible person and woman long before Golden started writing her.

Actually, no, her most recent actions were the result of the lead writers doing whatever they wanted. First Afrasiabi with Teldrassil and then Danuser with Shadowlands. Golden only filled in blanks, she has no power to change the characters actions.

[Nymrohd]

A woman who admittedly was strong in life, killed, denied death, and then completely enslaved, played like a fucking fiddle for over a decade, only then to be chased away and forced to hide away with her puppetmaster where she is ultimately taken down for good. Empowerment lol.

Yeah, Sylvanas alive was definitely about female empowerment. Extremely skilled and beautiful to the extent that her talent allowed her to force issues against the Silvermoon elite. That's a solid character there. If her character arc had been about overcoming what had happened to her and not letting Arthas define her, she'd have been even better but sadly that never happened. Not a fan of the importance of vanity though.

- - - Updated - - -

Actually, no, her most recent actions were the result of the lead writers doing whatever they wanted. First Afrasiabi with Teldrassil and then Danuser with Shadowlands. Golden only filled in blanks, she has no power to change the characters actions.

Heck whatever she wanted to do with Sylvanas in the book was likely rejected given the book delay.

[Raisei]

Calia. Spoiled rich girl who thinks the past titles give you rights.

Literally none of this is true.

Calia was used as most noble daughters in the middleages for marriage pacts
She went through the Scourge invasion and suffered the loss of her husband and child

She doesn't think that her bloodline gives her rights, she believes she has the resposibility to look out for the people of Lordaeron, even if they are undead. Especially since her brother is responsible for their suffering, she doesn't want to rule, she wants to help where Sylvanas only ever wanted to use and control.

[Shiny212]

Ceased to be a good character post Frozen Throne so, not really.

[OwenBurton]

Yeah, Sylvanas alive was definitely about female empowerment. Extremely skilled and beautiful to the extent that her talent allowed her to force issues against the Silvermoon elite. That's a solid character there. If her character arc had been about overcoming what had happened to her and not letting Arthas define her, she'd have been even better but sadly that never happened. Not a fan of the importance of vanity though.

- - - Updated - - -



Heck whatever she wanted to do with Sylvanas in the book was likely rejected given the book delay.

I remember first reading that Arthas novel when I was really young, before I even started the game, got it from a library, and Sylvanas's desperate fight scenes and experience defending her homeland was really deeply moving and powerful, I didn't understand it, but it had an impact on me.

I found the Sylvanas in the cinematic really interesting, the "living" Sylvanas was really engaging and refreshing. She seemed earnest yet strong in a way that the undead Sylvanas was not, perhaps b/c she wasn't really trying to scream and act "strong", I don't know...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay0kAVRyyok

[Nymrohd]

I remember first reading that Arthas novel when I was really young, before I even started the game, got it from a library, and Sylvanas's desperate fight scenes and experience defending her homeland was really deeply moving and powerful, I didn't understand it, but it had an impact on me.

I found the Sylvanas in the cinematic really interesting, the "living" Sylvanas was really engaging and refreshing. She seemed earnest yet strong in a way that the undead Sylvanas was not, perhaps she wasn't really trying to act "strong", I don't know...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay0kAVRyyok

I mean when Sylvanas inevitably returns in a couple of expacs to be a hero against her sister and the Void, they may well lean more on her original, living persona. After all she has practically severed her ties with the Forsaken by that point.

It's just that they could have made Sylvanas switch to a proper anti-hero after her failed suicide attempt instead of whatever this is. And let's stop pretending it all started in BfA, she wanted to murder her nephews and sister so they could all live unhappily ever after as rotting zombies in UC as far back as War Crimes.

[Bogdand131980]

I think people overlook so many things and are in general blind or willingly oversee tons of facts.
1. Sylvanas was the leader of the Undead free willed race. Not only that they are pard of the horde, that in general is the bad side in wow story(with exception), but Undead is barely fitting the horde as well, having in general their own agenda. Undead is an abomination as race, but lets understand that they had no choice when they were "created". Since then though Sylvanas constantly created new undead, of course not asking for permission, even ignoring War Cheif orders. That easily makes her a villain.
2. She falls in the category of useless elves that have not much special on themselves and are blinded by powers they trade for, seeking self gain. In life she was nothing special, compared with Jaina for example, a human that has only a few years to develop, Sylvanas was exactly nothing power wise. In undeath she is empowered, having special skills that had nothing to do with her living expertise, so clearly something was empowering her all along. As Azshara and Illidan, she has no real loyalty to her subjects. At least Azhara had the excuse that those turned into naga were dead or as good as dead. Not even Arthas did thing so obvious as her, sine Arthas' qoutes, even when taking Frostmourne, were about saving his people. Since he actually killed all Stratholme inhibitants just to not loose them to undeath, it is very clear that he wanted to save and keep them alive.
3. Regarding female empowerment, there are enough positive ones, both on alliance and horde side.

[Arikara]

everything that they have done to her since Cataclysm has been a catastrophe

ofcourse, it only reached a boiling point in BFA

[Bogdand131980]

You realize she was all along a fictional character, right?

[Caiphon]

If anything she represents what extremely radical minorities from both ends of the spectrum think female empowerment is - an extremely aggressive woman filled to the brim with malice and spite that oppresses, bullies and just generally hurts others while going on a rampage and smashing up society, thinking her own suffering somehow pardons her from any sort of accountability or responsibility regarding her aggression towards others and the suffering that results from said aggression.

Whether that hurts or helps the agenda is up to interpretation but she certainly doesn't leave a good impression on the playerbase if SL's reception is any measure.

[Shadowferal]

You realize she was all along a fictional character, right?

Connect this post to your post above.

[Toppy]

The head writer wrote himself in to be her boyfriend.
and their head book writer wrote her as a book burning saturday morning cartoon villain who is a slave to her wildly swinging emotions.

What do you think?

[Powerogue]

(note: have not read the book yet, but intend to.)

I'm leaning no. It's made complex (not as a compliment) by her weaving in and out of being a sort of antihero and outright genocidal supervillain, and getting her powers from outside sources she's either been forced into or sold herself out to.

She was never a good person as a banshee at least and about the only thing consistent through it all has been her will to control her own destiny, which sounds female empower-y, but I feel like part of "empowerment" isn't just "female with powers" but "grows as a person along the way" which Sylvanas never did. Her retaliation against the Jailer was motivated by the same thing as her fighting the Lich King, vengeance against someone who wanted to control her, specifically. Controlling others was always on the table.

I don't think there's much to "look up to" or "admire how far she's come" in Sylvanas, except maybe that she took responsibility for her actions in the end.

I'd much rather appreciate Tyrande, to be honest. She lost things dear to her and was consumed by vengeance as well, but she came out the other side without becoming a supervillainous raid boss first. In the end, she was able to get justice and renewal for her people. Choosing to let the all-consuming rage of the night warrior go was not weakness, and it did not mean ignoring the evil that had been done. Tyrande's core motivation of the well-being of her people won out, while Sylvanas sold out everything and everyone for herself.