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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Man's literally ignoring the existence of the Champions of Azeroth, especially the Paladin players, who are required to be Pure of Heart in order to wield the Ashbringer.
    Ya but Uther had all of that and in the end gave into his own corrupt thoughts about Arthas in the afterlife.

    The ring would absolutely beast anyone from the WoW universe.

    The best I could say, as I said before, would be Jaina and Thrall refusing to take the ring at all. That's the best case scenario.

    Maybe Chromie could destroy it, as she wouldn't fall into the corruption, but no one from Azeroth would be able to refuse the ring(with the exception of Thrall and Jaina). They always seek power which is exactly what the ring promises.
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  2. #42
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    The Ashbringer only won because of its power being infused into Tirions Faith. It's part of what made the weapon so damn powerful to begin with. It was also made by a Naaru's Heart and pure Emotion. The Naaru alone are beings of pure Light, one of the only beings of Pure Light that are able to exist in the Physical Universe.

    Also, he didn't want to kill them in those times. He wanted to kill them all himself at the Frozen Throne, and he wanted to see just how full of potential these Heroes would be. He himself even said he would raise them as his champions, with Tirion being the first victim against their relentless onslaught across all of Azeroth.

    It was a sick game of irony and evil orchestrated by the Lich King.
    And this sick game backfired spectacularly. He basically engineered his own defeat.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    And this sick game backfired spectacularly. He basically engineered his own defeat.
    Only because of the Light and Tirions hope. The Lich King got arrogant and didn't think Tirion would end up that strong, especially in such a dark place, with no holy ground whatsoever.

  4. #44
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Only because of the Light and Tirions hope. The Lich King got arrogant and didn't think Tirion would end up that strong, especially in such a dark place, with no holy ground whatsoever.
    Still, the result is the same. If he didn't factor something in his plan the it is on him.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffinat0r View Post
    Ya but Uther had all of that and in the end gave into his own corrupt thoughts about Arthas in the afterlife.

    The ring would absolutely beast anyone from the WoW universe.

    The best I could say, as I said before, would be Jaina and Thrall refusing to take the ring at all. That's the best case scenario.

    Maybe Chromie could destroy it, as she wouldn't fall into the corruption, but no one from Azeroth would be able to refuse the ring(with the exception of Thrall and Jaina). They always seek power which is exactly what the ring promises.
    That's a bit different, as his soul was broken and one of the shards was part of the Light, and the other went to the Maw. He himself had a twisted sense of Justice then, with Devos not being helpful there lol.

    The Ring can promise power, but that in itself doesn't mean everyone is fucked. Again, the Champions (maybe not Warlocks or Priests in a sense) could easily resist the Ring. They've been tempted by far worse before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    Still, the result is the same. If he didn't factor something in his plan the it is on him.
    That's just irrelevant. No one could've factored Tirion in lol

  6. #46
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    That's just irrelevant. No one could've factored Tirion in lol
    No one could factor presence of Tirion, while he was openly leading combined forces against him since first Northrend zone, met him during Argent Tournament, openly assaulted his citadel and defeated him in the recent past with the same weapon. "But muh hallowed ground?". Ok dude.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-11-01 at 06:07 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    No one could factor presence of Tirion, while he was openly leading combined forces against him since first Northrend zone, met him during Argent Tournament, openly assaulted his citadel and defeated him in the recent past with the same weapon. "But muh hallowed ground?". Ok dude.
    Yeah, no one could factor him breaking free from the Ice with the Light being that strong. How is that hard to grasp? To the Lich King, he thought he had Tirion pinned, with no other options available.

  8. #48
    Elemental Lord Makabreska's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosmicpreds View Post
    Yeah, no one could factor him breaking free from the Ice with the Light being that strong. How is that hard to grasp? To the Lich King, he thought he had Tirion pinned, with no other options available.
    So I guess N'zoth also didn't fuck up. He just didn't consider HoA being able to blast him away at the last moment. Such master plans, foiled by those completely unpredictable little thingies.
    Last edited by Makabreska; 2022-11-01 at 06:52 PM.
    Sometimes, the light of the moon is a key to other spaces. I've found a place where, for a night or two, the streets curve in unfamiliar ways. If I walk here, I might find insight, or I might be touched by madness.

  9. #49
    Sauron disguises himself as Annatar, presents the Ring to Arthas, convinces him to wear it, and then takes him over. Like he did to the Numenorean king.

    Arthas being a spoiled mortal fails to resist the temptations of the One Ring.

  10. #50
    Well, I wasn't expecting to thread to explode like that! And a lot of interesting discussion about things so far! But it seems for a lot of people, it comes down to one of the biggest aspects of Sauron's set up: The One Ring itself. While people point out, rightfully so, that Arthas himself was just a man who became corrupted by actions and, eventually, Frostmourne itself. And while I do agree that if we were talking about Arthas by himself, I could see him easily falling to the One Ring. The question then comes if that would actually effect him as the Lich King, whose own will isn't exactly a push over considering he commands and controls what is likely several million undead.

    There is one thing I've got to ask though, from what I DO remember of the One Ring and Frostmourne's abilities... The One Ring itself houses a part of Sauron's soul. It's for that reason why he can't really be killed off without the destruction of the Ring itself. Frostmourne, however, can cut through most things and has the entire point of being able to shatter souls and draw them into the blade itself. Think that might be a deciding factor in the fight? Or would the Ring still be too much of a temptation of power for the Lich King, allowing Sauron to live on?

    I'm curious as to folks thoughts.

  11. #51
    There's a lot of overestimation of Sauron's powers in this thread.

    He was a lesser angel - yes, the most powerful of them, but still only a lesser angel. At the apex of his power he was defeated by three champions. He got his ass kicked with the ring in his possession multiple times prior to that (in army vs army combat).

    Furthermore, even if he were to give his ring to Arthas and Arthas were to accept it, there's no solid evidence that it would work against the Lich King because he is already dominated/merged with a powerful and malevolent entity. If (and its a big IF) the ring were to work on it, again there's no evidence it would bind him to Sauron's will - only that it would further corrupt him. Even an elf queen without any significant magical powers is strong enough to be confident that she will replace Sauron rather than serve him. A powerful enough entity could claim the Ring of Power for itself and simply destroy Sauron with the power of the ring at its command.

    Yes, Sauron is immune to death while the ring is intact, but simply destroying his physical shell every few millenia is sufficiently close to death that it would be a moot point.
    Last edited by Ashnazg; 2022-11-02 at 03:38 AM.

  12. #52
    If Sauron wins, then I hope Arthas gets a better send-off/death than he did in Shadowlands!

  13. #53
    This is actually one of those mind bogglers. You got the Lich king which could command the dead and have millions of undead under his control, and possessed a fountain of personal power that he could bring down demon lords.

    On the other hand you have Sauron who was an incredibly powerful "fallen angel" in the lord of the rings who even without a physical body still possessed a godlike influence and had millions in his army, even other fallen celestials that became the Balrog.

    Honestly if this were a question about who's army is stronger it would be hands down Sauron, but personal power I think it should go to the lich king. I haven't read much of the books, but Sauron in his form didn't really hold much strength. He was mostly known for his influence. The Lich King on the other hand knew war and participated, developed his abilities fighting every race azeroth threw at him and even when he was losing his power traveling to the Frozen Throne he still managed to beat back illidan who was empowered at the time.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    It's not really Arthas here. It's the amalgamation that comprises the "Lich King" entity. And it may exult in that corrupted power, possibly either undermining the One Ring and Sauron, or simply absorbing it into one aggregate being. In either case it would be scary powerful.
    Yes, but who really wins in that scenario? Not the Lich King, I think. Sauron would undoubtedly be the strongest entity, both in will and literal strength of spirit, fighting for the reigns of the "aggregate being", as his opponents just being the already decimated and possibly already gone spirit of an orc, and the spirit of a human, he would easily come out in control after destroying what little remains of their souls. In the end there would be no "aggregate being" because there would be no others inside the Lich King, just Suaron... I don't see the Helm or Frostmourne being able to have any control over an entity as powerful as Sauron (Anduin, a frekin baseline human, broke the same type of control over him, so that would be a cakewalk for Sauron), so in a roundabout way this would just end in Sauron absorbing the Lich King's abilities, rather than the Lich King absorbing Sauron.


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I decline to believe the Jailer would ignore any interference from some off world interloper. At which point Sauron gets crushed brutally into the aggregate being that is the Lich King. The One Ring being thoroughly subverted to his use.
    You greatly overestimate the influence the Jailor has over the Lich King... Bolvar, a baseline human, was able to resist him for like over a decade, and we have no signs he was going to crack under the pressure... A being like Sauron would literally laugh off the Jailor attempting to exert any influence over him whatsoever. I'd go so far as to say Sauron would likely find a way to use that connection to control the Jailor, rather than the Jailor controlling him.
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2022-11-02 at 04:56 AM.
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  15. #55
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    It promises to be a match up to watch that is going to be riveting. But Im betting on Sauron, Though im sure it will be a fight worthy of legend.
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  16. #56
    Going by what they usually grade by

    Experience: Sauron by a long shot Arthas and Ner'zul combined are infants by comparison. Jailer being stuck in the Maw and unable to actually leave is a non issue

    Strength and Speed: not too many good feats to compare them by I think Sauron has the edge

    Durability: Sauron wins again. Arthas is still only human and if you factor their artifacts. The One Ring can only be destroyed by throwing it into a specific volcano while the helm and sword were both shattered by enough force

    Abilities: tough to say on one hand anything Arthas kills becomes his own minions and he has the ability to raise them as Death Knights. However Saurons corrupting influence might just turn the undead ally back to his side again. The big factor is how resistant to his will they are. Arthas as a whole can't even resist his own corruption while several people were able to by sheer will alone.


    Gonna say this is probably a typical death battle curb stomp with Sauron by a long shot winning

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorgulon View Post
    I've always felt like Arthas/LK has a pretty low powerlevel in comparison to a very large amount of Warcraft's character roster. Like, he's obviously strong, but his strength does not come from him alone, it comes from his power over undead. When he kills a soldier, he takes control over them, and thus, every time someone dies, it's not bad enough that the other side loses a soldier, their enemy also gains one.
    Imo, Arthas would lose to, say, almost all the bosses in Molten Core, BWL, AQ etc in a 1v1, but would be able to defeat many of them through the sheer number of undeads he could produce.
    I might also be totally wrong, but that's how I've always imagined him.
    The Lich King was the first raid boss to kill the entire party, only for them to be saved by a deus ex machina. It was his grand goal in the first place, let them get more powerful throughout Northrend, and at the end fight them atop the Frozen Throne in order to raise the most powerful fighters the world has known as undead and wipe out all life from Azeroth.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Itori View Post
    On the other hand you have Sauron who was an incredibly powerful "fallen angel" in the lord of the rings who even without a physical body still possessed a godlike influence and had millions in his army, even other fallen celestials that became the Balrog.

    Honestly if this were a question about who's army is stronger it would be hands down Sauron, but personal power I think it should go to the lich king.
    Not so sure. Saurons armies are all living, they all can die, even Balrogs as far as i know. Undead can't, they can be resummoned again and again. Plus you can summon all dead enemies and add them to your own army. In theory undead armies should be undefeatable once they have a certain size and in stories they are usually only ever beaten by some plot device.

  19. #59
    There is really no comparaison, because it is low fantasy vs high fantasy

    Army vs Army
    How could Sauron's army, or even himself could do anything against a swarm of wyrm or Naxxramas. The biggest threat in Sauron's army are not that scary in the wow universe. Their beast can be killed by big birds, or simple human and the main weakness is semantic which is not going to go far in the warcraft universe.

    Lich King vs The Ring
    Some people raised the question of the ring corrupting ability...But I mean...without the need to point that Arthas already resisted domination magic or that to be tempted it requires to have destroyed Sauron in the first place...why would he even care about the ring ? To control others ? he can already do it to a way larger scale. To become invisible ?And it is not like he had an army of brainless uncorruptible minion to dispose of the ring.

    Lich King Vs Sauron
    Well an argument could be made about who can win, but once again...
    At his peak, Sauron was defeated, several time, by normal mortals doing normals things. That is the point of LOTR, that people with only their strength of character could defeat Sauron and his army. You cannot do that with the Lich King because he is a very strong being in an universe full of very strong being.

    And that is the main point.
    Sauron is a formidable foe in his universe, because magic or technology is very limited, and yet he can be defeated.
    How would Sauron fight in the wow universe ? Could he beat flying cities full of mages, dragons, army of paladins infused with magic

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Mysterymask View Post
    The One Ring can only be destroyed by throwing it into a specific volcano while the helm and sword were both shattered by enough force
    The One Ring can be destroyed by application of temperature higher than approximately 2-4k degrees Fahrenheit. I have a hard time believing that in WoW universe its all that difficult to achieve those temperatures. Lich King could simply have the ring chucked into the lava cracks near Molten Core if he felt inclined to destroy it.

    Not that it would have even been necessary, since there is probably slim to 0 chance the ring would have been able to bind Lich King to Sauron's will in the first place.

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