Is the sub-based monthly model outdated?

[Hambo94]

Buddy, for fuck's sake -- your penchant for writing many, many words and saying literally nothing of substance is a genuine work of art. The guy you're defending said "nobody under 25 is interested in WoW" which is a wholly unsubstantiated and completely ridiculous claim by any measure, regardless of whether it's "just" a fucking opinion. I rarely agree with @rrayy but he was right to call this out for what it is: nonsense that has no business being introduced as the backbone for any argument about the direction this game is going.

And your penchant for coming off as extremely snidey is not lost on me. All you have done, is deflect valid arguments/criticisms by mocking/suggesting that there is no substance. Next time I see someone I disagree with, instead of saying why ill just say "im not going to say why there is no substance but there is no substance and your essay is a work of art in the ability to say nothing" Go on, if its nothing of substance, quote me on it instead of just making empty claims. Quote something I said, and tell me why its just wrong.

Again, the irony that you're saying people like 'me' are making the forum a worse place! Its actually just a comedy show at this point!

And here we go, the bullshit starts already!

The guy you're defending said "nobody under 25 is interested in WoW" which is a wholly unsubstantiated and completely ridiculous claim by any measure

No he didnt, go read again before making statements up.

I have not talked to a single person under 25 years of age that has any interest in this game.

=/ "nobody under 25 is interested in WoW"

So yeah, it is just a fucking opinion.

How about you actually read my post, and reply in kind instead of with some dismissive attitude, and actually go look up what the guy said, instead of just making up quotes, and maybe we wont have to argue.

[Relapses]

And your penchant for coming off as extremely snidey is not lost on me. All you have done, is deflect valid arguments/criticisms by mocking/suggesting that there is no substance. Next time I see someone I disagree with, instead of saying why ill just say "im not going to say why there is no substance but there is no substance and your essay is a work of art in the ability to say nothing" Go on, if its nothing of substance, quote me on it instead of just making empty claims. Quote something I said, and tell me why its just wrong.

Again, the irony that you're saying people like 'me' are making the forum a worse place! Its actually just a comedy show at this point!

And here we go, the bullshit starts already!



No he didnt, go read again before making statements up.

=/ "nobody under 25 is interested in WoW"

So yeah, it is just a fucking opinion.

How about you actually read my post, and reply in kind instead of with some dismissive attitude, and actually go look up what the guy said, instead of just making up quotes, and maybe we wont have to argue.

I've (unfortunately) read your posts. You have a weird tendency to repeat yourself six or seven times and say the same thing in different words over and over again. I think it was Shakespeare who said it best: Brevity is the soul of wit. Or, to use a more modern example: Why use many word when few word do trick? I know this is a dangerous thing to say but imo you could save yourself a lot of time and effort if you'd just stop repeating yourself.

Regardless, I don't need to delve into pedantry to break apart every statement you've made (I'll let other forum users do that) in order for me to drive home my issue with your position. I've already said twice now so I guess I'll take a page out of your book and say it again: Please stop validating bad faith argumentation.

Thanks, you can quote me again but this is already wildly off topic so I won't be engaging any further. Have a wonderful day.

[Lochton]

Everyone knows token sales give gold

Blizzard doesn't give gold, Blizzard gives tradeable game time. Just like a contracted sold tradeable TCGs.

and boosters sell everything for gold.

Everyone sell everything for gold. It is the rules.

You wont convince anyone its not p2w.

I don't need to convince you but can you convince yourself that WoW was P2W since 2006 and we're just talking about a dead topic if the token is flagged as P2W. And that you have been so blind to not notice until it was a common man thing?

As for Archeage the devs got flamed there even more cause pvp was more prominent but they had no equalizing pvp mechanics.

Mate, they got flamed for so much more.

People could swipe to win getting 2x the stats of f2p early on.

Now you are talking buffs, which is an issue with about 4-5 current MMOs? It would've been six if FFXIV hadn't removed their buff food from the store. They didn't sell gear though, other than cosmetics. RIP good game concept.

Nobody cares how you call it or dress it up. The only thing relevant is if you can swipe to get ahead of other players and if yes its p2w.

But, you just now made the statement that if you can swipe, it is P2W but you cannot swipe for a winning attribute from Blizzard's store. You can swipe for game-time, which you can trade with other players - this is where the term, "in-direct P2W" arose during the previous thread of this topic.

[Hambo94]

I've (unfortunately) read your posts. You have a weird tendency to repeat yourself six or seven times and say the same thing in different words over and over again. I think it was Shakespeare who said it best: Brevity is the soul of wit. Or, to use a more modern example: Why use many word when few word do trick? I know this is a dangerous thing to say but imo you could save yourself a lot of time and effort if you'd just stop repeating yourself.

Regardless, I don't need to delve into pedantry to break apart every statement you've made (I'll let other forum users do that) in order for me to drive home my issue with your position. I've already said twice now so I guess I'll take a page out of your book and say it again: Please stop validating bad faith argumentation.

Thanks, you can quote me again but this is already wildly off topic so I won't be engaging any further. Have a wonderful day.

Cya later Relapses the wise, time to go read your Shakespeare and Socrates collection because you have nothing left to say and you're running away from the argument without any response other than to criticise me personally after you just got proven to be making shit up.

Bye bye!

[lazza25784]

Around $15 a month is pretty standard across sub based mmos.

[Kagthul]

I find it ludicrous that Sony is the market leader of MS yet somehow the UK regulator is taking Sony's side against establishing monopolies but then again UK politics of the last decade generally lends to incredulous laughter. I want to see how the EU regulators will respond; I don't expect them to dismiss the acquisition but I do expect them to require certain restrictions and assurances that favor competition beyond just Microsoft's word on it. But again, if Sony actually has the UK regulator in their pocket (and given that they regurgitated Sony's arguments, they might) it won't end well.

The EU Comission already released a statement saying that Microsoft refused to agree to any of their concerns. Basically means that its DOA in the EU, so.. DOA.

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Yeah, this whole thing is just a joke because one company found out that they could file a complaint in a country that would be one of the few opposing ones, and then have them ignore your own background, to block your competition.

Sony's complaints have been nearly irrelevant to the process so far. The SEC already had tons of serious issues before Sony said a word. The EU Comission also had tons of issues with it and Microsoft apparently refused to address any of them. Sony's complaints are going through a completely different process involving the courts. It isn't even likely to get that far, because the EU in particular doesn't put up with Microsoft's shit in any way and MS's refusal to address ANY of the Comission's concerns basically means the deal is dead.

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Everyone knows token sales give gold and boosters sell everything for gold.

And always did. For a decade when there was no Token.

You wont convince anyone its not p2w.

People's mental handicaps are not my problem. Its not pay to win. you dont pay Blizzard and get power. You pay Bizzard and get.. gold. Which you can use for anything people use gold for.

Even if you use it to pay for carries/boosts, you could also have just farmed the gold (easily. Im still sitting on ~20 million from WoD/Legion, and i didnt even try that hard, just logged in for 5 minutes/day/toon).... and you still have to find and negotiate a boost in-game with real people.

Its not "click button get powerful end game stuff".

Also... pay to win... what? PvE? Kay. You're not ruining anyone elses experience. And for -most- expansions (BfA and Faillands were notable exceptions with their upgradeable/rating tied iLevel gear) no amount of paying will make you better at PvP or give you an advantage. Because you can get the same gear with no rating.

And even if you're getting carried....

So what? Again, could have paid for that gold without paying a single cent of real money, or even paying at all. Make a few friends. I detest Arena and have since the day it was implemented. But i have friends who are good at it, and the few times ive cared to get gear that required rating, they were more than happy to carry me (not that im -that- bad, i just really dont care for Arena and dont want to tryhard it if i can get through it faster).

Thats not P2W. P2W is... well, see Diablo Immortal. Basically a dictionary perfect definition.

[MoanaLisa]

There is not one thing consumer friendly in F2P.

Because F2P is automatically: If you want ANYTHING good in this game, pay up. And pay up like 10000% more than what you would have payed with the sub fee.

Look at OW2 or ANY F2P games. Classes will be locked. Pay 50€ to unlock one spec. Want good transmog? Too bad every single set costs at leas 50 €.

The moment they go F2P this game is dead dead dead.

Well, that's not true for every F2P game. There are better and worse F2P models. Most of them are quite bad and predatory, but not all. Frankly, you can do pretty well with some games if you can find your way to not caring about having that "limited time skin", resist the constant advertising, and in general be a smart consumer. There are plenty of people who can navigate that and have a good time with their mobile games or whatever. I play a few mobile games, have accepted that progress will be slower than for the P2W players, avoid games that are primarily PVP based, and find the few titles I play to be pretty decent without ever spending a dime.

But yes, you must have rules and you must stick to them. If you don't want to spend anything, then don't. If you want to limit yourself to $5 or $10 a month, that's great. Do that. Don't go over or if you must spend $19.99 for something then don't spend anything the next month. It also helps a lot to know what you personally want out of the game so you can develop your path in the game to reach those goals with an understanding of whether or not you can get there for free or will need to spend some cash.

I understand 100% the disdain that people have for F2P games but it's fair to remember that they aren't all created equal. All of this stuff is completely obvious and those that seem to imagine that people are too stupid to not get sucked in (Some are!!! but most are not which is why whales only make up a small minority of players). There is nearly always a middle ground that most players occupy in any game like this. Find it. Use it. Stop bellowing about extremes that many people have already reconciled as BS and won't touch. Consumers do not have to be helpless pawns (and most aren't).

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Everyone knows token sales give gold and boosters sell everything for gold. You wont convince anyone its not p2w.

Most people don't need to be convinced. Most people don't give a shit and find it offensive that there are people who are outraged about how they spend their own income. It's none of your fucking business what people do with the gold they buy. So sit down.

[Evolixe]

I rather pay 15 bucks a month than deal with whatever the hell they are trying to do with diablo and overwatch.

[mbit2]

Most people don't give a shit and find it offensive that there are people who are outraged about how they spend their own income. It's none of your fucking business what people do with the gold they buy. So sit down.

Its my business when i have to compete against whales and boost buyers getting carried by glads in lower pvp tiers. Youre no better swiping than the botters and other exploiters. Only difference is the corp sanctions swiping cause it benefits their pockets. So think before talking shit.

[rhorle]

Its my business when i have to compete against whales and boost buyers getting carried by glads in lower pvp tiers. Youre no better swiping than the botters and other exploiters. Only difference is the corp sanctions swiping cause it benefits their pockets. So think before talking shit.

Wouldn't you have to compete against other players anyways? Ultimately why does it matter if they bought their way or earned their way? You either win or you lose regardless.

[Twdft]

Wouldn't you have to compete against other players anyways? Ultimately why does it matter if they bought their way or earned their way? You either win or you lose regardless.

The problem in pvp is that you face stronger enemies earlier.

Let's say I am 1500 skilled player and go out into the arena world with my 1500 skilled friend working to get our rating up and have some fun. We meet another 1500 player buying boosts from a 2400 skilled player who tanked his rating to 1500 to carry the dude.

I don't care at all about some dude buying pve boosts, but I can see the harm it does in pvp.

[mbit2]

Wouldn't you have to compete against other players anyways? Ultimately why does it matter if they bought their way or earned their way? You either win or you lose regardless.

Matchmaking would normally match you against players of your skill. So under normal conditions majority would never have to play against glads once mmr is established. Boosting destroys that. The whole point of it is after all having a top player carry a low lvl paying customers to higher rank which requires destroying lots of low lvl pvp players.
Imagine being a beginner and then getting matched against pros. Its an open question how many quit frustrated seeing gladiator title that proceed to destroy them already at 1600 while they still trying to learn how to pvp.

[rhorle]

The problem in pvp is that you face stronger enemies earlier.

So then your rating goes up or down accordingly, right? If someone buys their way but has the skill to perform then what is the big problem? You would have lost anyways if they worked their way up, right?

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The whole point of it is after all having a top player carry a low lvl paying customers to higher rank which requires destroying lots of low lvl pvp players.

But that would happen anyways, right? Because if the person didn't buy a boost but earned their way up they would be destroying low level PvP on their way up the ladder. You really are just complaining that you might face people better then you and using boosts as the scapegoat.

[mbit2]

But that would happen anyways, right? Because if the person didn't buy a boost but earned their way up they would be destroying low level PvP on their way up the ladder. You really are just complaining that you might face people better then you and using boosts as the scapegoat.

If the boost buyer could climb by himself he wouldn't need to buy a boost... and the argument was it brings top 0.1% players into lower ranks because they get paid to farm noobs.
You seem to argue about what happens after the boost while the other poster and my comment was what happens during the boost. Most people who buy boosts dont even continue playing pvp, they just pay to get the rank rewards.

[rhorle]

If the boost buyer could climb by himself he wouldn't need to buy a boost... and the argument was it brings top 0.1% players into lower ranks because they get paid to farm noobs.

You said you were competing against them. Which means you are the noob bracket in your example. They would quickly climb out of your bracket wouldn't they?

[mbit2]

You said you were competing against them. Which means you are the noob bracket in your example. They would quickly climb out of your bracket wouldn't they?

What do you think happens when the seller is done boosting one guy? Repeat with next buyer. What else did you think "boosting keeps pros in lower bracket" means?

[rhorle]

What do you think happens when the seller is done boosting one guy? Repeat with next buyer. What else did you think "boosting keeps pros in lower bracket" means?

Right. But wouldn't you be growing out of that lower bracket by competing against people? So either you are stuck their regardless of boosters existing or you would earn you way up and deal with them less.

[Lochton]

The problem in pvp is that you face stronger enemies earlier.

Let's say I am 1500 skilled player and go out into the arena world with my 1500 skilled friend working to get our rating up and have some fun. We meet another 1500 player buying boosts from a 2400 skilled player who tanked his rating to 1500 to carry the dude.

I don't care at all about some dude buying pve boosts, but I can see the harm it does in pvp.

Is PvP boosting permitted even? I mean, it is against the rules to dump your rating on purpose to appear in the low ranks with higher original rating. Or so it used to be.

[T-34]

Is PvP boosting permitted even? I mean, it is against the rules to dump your rating on purpose to appear in the low ranks with higher original rating. Or so it used to be.

Win trading is and has always been against the rules.
Loosing on purpose has never been against the rules.

[MoanaLisa]

Its my business when i have to compete against whales and boost buyers getting carried by glads in lower pvp tiers. Youre no better swiping than the botters and other exploiters. Only difference is the corp sanctions swiping cause it benefits their pockets. So think before talking shit.

No, really it's not any of your business what other people do with their money. Besides, haven't you heard? Boosters and whales can't play for shit. Easy win for one such as you.