Is the sub-based monthly model outdated?

[Lochton]

Win trading is and has always been against the rules.
Loosing on purpose has never been against the rules.

Well, I knew win trading, but I've always thought that fake rating (Whatever to call it, losers being losers for getting gold from losers) was against the rules.

[Lolites]

Its my business when i have to compete against whales and boost buyers getting carried by glads in lower pvp tiers. Youre no better swiping than the botters and other exploiters. Only difference is the corp sanctions swiping cause it benefits their pockets. So think before talking shit.

win trading is against rules, so your issue is not really people spending money, its people BREAKING THE RULES...
and wouldnt that happen if no gold was involved? people "boosting" their friends and guildmates are a thing...
not to mention boosting existed since vanila (well since TBC for arenas), over a decade before gold selling was "sanctioned", so nothing really changed there for people who dont boost/get boosted...
so listen to your own advice, and think before talking shit... or just dont start

[Lochton]

Its my business when i have to compete against whales and boost buyers getting carried by glads in lower pvp tiers. Youre no better swiping than the botters and other exploiters. Only difference is the corp sanctions swiping cause it benefits their pockets. So think before talking shit.

Mate, without or with the token, you'll have whales, the question is, more or fewer victims? "Whales" in WoW are almost equal to nill. You can be a whale in WoW but unlike some other games, you can still lose to people with less rating and gear than you if you have no idea what you are doing.

[WinningOne]

The problem with the sub model is it's being treated as a value service when it should be treated as a premium service. The monthly sub cost for WoW should be at least 50 bucks. Maybe more like 70. It might also make sense to require new players to pay for their first 3 or 6 months up front with no refund if they get banned for violating the ToS.

[T-34]

Well, I knew win trading, but I've always thought that fake rating (Whatever to call it, losers being losers for getting gold from losers) was against the rules.

Win trading has had some quite prominent ban waves, but that was teams with high rating that traded wins/losses within a very limited amount of teams to ensure that most possible teams got the required ratings for rewards/titles.
That is easy to spot as there are few teams with such a high rating.

But how to spot a player in the low brackets that plays with a lot of people and goes up and down in rating in the low brackets?
As long as they don't pilot, cheat (win trade or technical cheats) or take RL money for boosting then they are good to go.

"Individuals and guilds selling boost or assistance in raiding, dungeon, or PvP activities for gold is allowed but can only be advertised in-game through the Trade Services chat channel."

I don't like it either, but it has always existed in all games and human activities, the question is how to regulate it.

[Lochton]

Win trading has had some quite prominent ban waves, but that was teams with high rating that traded wins/losses within a very limited amount of teams to ensure that most possible teams got the required ratings for rewards/titles.
That is easy to spot as there are few teams with such a high rating.

But how to spot a player in the low brackets that plays with a lot of people and goes up and down in rating in the low brackets?
As long as they don't pilot, cheat (win trade or technical cheats) or take RL money for boosting then they are good to go.

"Individuals and guilds selling boost or assistance in raiding, dungeon, or PvP activities for gold is allowed but can only be advertised in-game through the Trade Services chat channel."

I don't like it either, but it has always existed in all games and human activities, the question is how to regulate it.

I just, as stated, always thought that boosting in PvP was really on the border, and climbing just to dump all the time should be against the rules, I mean, you are literally ruining the game experience of other players after all. It could even be marked as griefing, I mean, you can have players banned in the open world for griefing other players/events.

[arkanon]

That's not really accurate.

For most players a f2p game ends up being mostly that ... free. They may make some purchases here and there, but overall it ends up being much less expensive than maintaining a subscription.

It's the whales that make f2p games their money, and they are a quite small percentage of the player base. We know with certainty that about 20% of the population pays about 80% of a game's income. If you're not a whale then a f2p game will almost always be a better value than a subscription game.

I just googled the most profitable games of 2021 and the top 5 are all f2p. Maybe more than that, but I feel too 5 proves the point. You don't need everyone paying when the ones that do pour tens of thousands of dollars into it. I kinda though DI proved that.

[T-34]

I just, as stated, always thought that boosting in PvP was really on the border, and climbing just to dump all the time should be against the rules, I mean, you are literally ruining the game experience of other players after all. It could even be marked as griefing, I mean, you can have players banned in the open world for griefing other players/events.

You can most certainly not be banned for "griefing mk1" in War mode and you could never be banned for "griefing mk1" when pvp servers existed.
"Griefing mk1" as in killing other players in Warmode or do stuff that had a pvp solution to it on pvp servers.
"Griefing mk2" as in doing stuff outside killing other players in warmode or disrupt gameplay on pve servers is a completely different question.

I do agree that "good" players that play in a lower bracket than they should can be a problem, but the question is how should Blizzard be able to identify who is a "good" player that goes up and down unnaturally in rating in the "bad player bracket" and who is a genuinely bad player that goes up and down in the bad player bracket?

[ImpalerEU]

Outdated or not, no one is being forced to pay here.

Go play something more modern and within your standards instead.

[mbit2]

win trading is against rules, so your issue is not really people spending money, its people BREAKING THE RULES...
and wouldnt that happen if no gold was involved? people "boosting" their friends and guildmates are a thing...
not to mention boosting existed since vanila (well since TBC for arenas), over a decade before gold selling was "sanctioned", so nothing really changed there for people who dont boost/get boosted...
so listen to your own advice, and think before talking shit... or just dont start

Boosting is not win trading... seriously how can one be so clueless while living at least 3 years in wow.
And the rest is just silly cope "others do it too" well who cares? Obviously boosting = more of same unwanted shit by pros doing it full time as jobs and not just once for a friend. Not to mention that your friends are most likely not top players. The statistics on this are quite obvious.

If you watch chat nowadays you dont even see normal people talk anymore like in older xpacs, its just a never ending spam of boost advertisements.
Original topic was go sub or f2p? This is already the typical f2p asia grinder experience! First thing new player sees entering Orgrimmar/Stormwind is flood of adds offering everything for sale. Frankly i dont know any western mmo worse than this. Every game has some RMT spam but noone else has only RMT spam without any natural discussion.

[ippollite]

I recommend ftp or btp, but you can only access 3 pillar content with a monthly sub.

Subs get to farm me in pvp and i get to enjoy the cosmetic farming/funhouse mirror version of the game with absolutely no acrimony. Plus i dont get to post my "feedback" or complain about how crappy the world game is and 'advocate' for changes. Its win-win.

Oh, and i can buy a weekly pass for like 5 bucks. Plus a bunch of other stuff. Its cash shop agogo! Oh! And you can do an ESO and restrict bags, and give subs a bunch of points for each month so they can pick up some loot boxes. To be honest, i always liked the ESO model. But i definitely want the restriction on 3 pillar content... well, current "season". It'll be funny!

[Cynical Asshole]

Outdated it may be, it's a heck of a lot better than f2p with p2w mechanics, like everything coming from Korea.

[Roflfaceroll]

The problem with the sub model is it's being treated as a value service when it should be treated as a premium service. The monthly sub cost for WoW should be at least 50 bucks. Maybe more like 70. It might also make sense to require new players to pay for their first 3 or 6 months up front with no refund if they get banned for violating the ToS.

This person is from the twilight zone. In their reality when bartering they offer you the highest price and they will keep offering to pay more when they are told the price is ok. By the end of their deal they decided to buy their sub 50 years in advanced and at $1000/a month and allowed them to sue if they try and back out.

Sadly this outrageous deal is still cheaper than the current value diablo immortal whale players got.

100k and it has only been out for like 5 months. So at this time it is like they spent 20k/mon

[Soon-TM]

I rather pay 15 bucks a month than deal with whatever the hell they are trying to do with diablo and overwatch.

This. Although the sub does rub me in the wrong way, the only thing worse than a sub-based WoW would be a F2P WoW ran by Blizzard.

[WinningOne]

This person is from the twilight zone. In their reality when bartering they offer you the highest price and they will keep offering to pay more when they are told the price is ok. By the end of their deal they decided to buy their sub 50 years in advanced and at $1000/a month and allowed them to sue if they try and back out.

Sadly this outrageous deal is still cheaper than the current value diablo immortal whale players got.

100k and it has only been out for like 5 months. So at this time it is like they spent 20k/mon

What do you think will happen to the bots and gold sellers if being banned costs them $420 per account instead of $12? What do you think will happen to multiboxers if they have to spend $2100 to start up 5 accounts instead of $60? How many more resources will Blizzard be able to put into game development and customer service if their word load decreases by 90% but their net profit only decreases by 20%? Easier game development cycle, lower maintenance costs, higher staff salaries, better staff to player ratios, easier ToS enforcement, more wholesome community, effective player engagement, better employee morale etc.

When you charge low quality prices you get low quality customers which leads to low quality companies. Seriously, unlimited month long access to one of the best games ever made for 50 cents a day and you guys complain that they would DARE also offer things through an online store. You're low quality customers and bad for the community. Go away and play your sucky f2p games. Leave the rest of us alone.

[mbit2]

What do you think will happen to the bots and gold sellers if being banned costs them $420 per account instead of $12? What do you think will happen to multiboxers if they have to spend $2100 to start up 5 accounts instead of $60? How many more resources will Blizzard be able to put into game development and customer service if their word load decreases by 90% but their net profit only decreases by 20%? Easier game development cycle, lower maintenance costs, higher staff salaries, better staff to player ratios, easier ToS enforcement, more wholesome community, effective player engagement, better employee morale etc.

When you charge low quality prices you get low quality customers which leads to low quality companies. Seriously, unlimited month long access to one of the best games ever made for 50 cents a day and you guys complain that they would DARE also offer things through an online store. You're low quality customers and bad for the community. Go away and play your sucky f2p games. Leave the rest of us alone.

Petition blizz for a exclusive paypig server akin to tournament servers with access only for extra payment. Would be a fun social experiment.

[Roflfaceroll]

What do you think will happen to the bots and gold sellers if being banned costs them $420 per account instead of $12? What do you think will happen to multiboxers if they have to spend $2100 to start up 5 accounts instead of $60? How many more resources will Blizzard be able to put into game development and customer service if their word load decreases by 90% but their net profit only decreases by 20%? Easier game development cycle, lower maintenance costs, higher staff salaries, better staff to player ratios, easier ToS enforcement, more wholesome community, effective player engagement, better employee morale etc.

When you charge low quality prices you get low quality customers which leads to low quality companies. Seriously, unlimited month long access to one of the best games ever made for 50 cents a day and you guys complain that they would DARE also offer things through an online store. You're low quality customers and bad for the community. Go away and play your sucky f2p games. Leave the rest of us alone.

Yet f2p games make a ton of money and are still crappy. Just because a company makes a ton of money to predatory practices doesn't mean they will turn around and make something good. Blizzard before activision took over actually cared about producing a good game and at a reasonable price. Because of that they gained a loyal following and became successful. Now you got corporate with their hands in the gaming jar only caring about the bottomline. Most of them probably never played a game in their lives.

Because of that corporate greed many gaming companies are making crappier games that are chopped up and sold piece by piece for cash. Many of the games come out unfinished or just riddled with bugs, because instead of caring how the game performed they just want to make sure the items in the store works so they can sell, sell, sell.

Everyone that is an old blizzard fan understands that it costs money to make a good game. We have been paying a subscription for server use and game maintenance for a good 18 years and when expansions come out we buy them for the content. Wow singlehandedly funded blizzard. We know what it costs for a good game. Thats why we also know that f2p models aren't it.

You are calling me cheap, but support a game that is f2p under the context of it being free. Either you are cheaper than I am or you admit that free to play games aren't really free to play.

Also who gives a damn about gold sellers and bots or multiboxers. They are against gaming terms and can go suck a fat one. Multiboxers are usually rich kids that have the money to burn anyways. Running wow on 1 computer is taxing. These are the type of people that go and drop $1200 on an aimbot for their fps games. Increasing the price doesn't do much to deter these groups, it just means that the cost of the items in game cost more and they will make more from breaking the terms. What are you gonna do to ban them and make sure they don't come back? Sadly bots and goldsellers/boosters will continue to exist because there is always a market for them. Blizz adding boosts and trading gold for wow tokens didn't stop them. They just undercut blizzard prices a bit. Whats next for them? An IP blacklist??? Well hello vpn... i dislike them also but we have a crappy new types of gamers that are pay instead of play.

I personally wouldn't call them gamers. Gamers play the game to enjoy playing the game. These new frauds want f2p systems because they don't want to play they just want the rewards.

[WinningOne]

Yet f2p games make a ton of money and are still crappy. Just because a company makes a ton of money to predatory practices doesn't mean they will turn around and make something good. Blizzard before activision took over actually cared about producing a good game and at a reasonable price. Because of that they gained a loyal following and became successful. Now you got corporate with their hands in the gaming jar only caring about the bottomline. Most of them probably never played a game in their lives.

Because of that corporate greed many gaming companies are making crappier games that are chopped up and sold piece by piece for cash. Many of the games come out unfinished or just riddled with bugs, because instead of caring how the game performed they just want to make sure the items in the store works so they can sell, sell, sell.

Everyone that is an old blizzard fan understands that it costs money to make a good game. We have been paying a subscription for server use and game maintenance for a good 18 years and when expansions come out we buy them for the content. Wow singlehandedly funded blizzard. We know what it costs for a good game. Thats why we also know that f2p models aren't it.

You are calling me cheap, but support a game that is f2p under the context of it being free. Either you are cheaper than I am or you admit that free to play games aren't really free to play.

Also who gives a damn about gold sellers and bots or multiboxers. They are against gaming terms and can go suck a fat one. Multiboxers are usually rich kids that have the money to burn anyways. Running wow on 1 computer is taxing. These are the type of people that go and drop $1200 on an aimbot for their fps games. Increasing the price doesn't do much to deter these groups, it just means that the cost of the items in game cost more and they will make more from breaking the terms. What are you gonna do to ban them and make sure they don't come back? Sadly bots and goldsellers/boosters will continue to exist because there is always a market for them. Blizz adding boosts and trading gold for wow tokens didn't stop them. They just undercut blizzard prices a bit. Whats next for them? An IP blacklist??? Well hello vpn... i dislike them also but we have a crappy new types of gamers that are pay instead of play.

I personally wouldn't call them gamers. Gamers play the game to enjoy playing the game. These new frauds want f2p systems because they don't want to play they just want the rewards.

You entirely missed the point. I said you're a low quality customer not cheap. I have no idea whether you're responsible with your money or not but I can tell from your posts you're a low quality customer. The experience of being part of the WoW gaming community would improve exponentially if the price was raised so customers like you don't want to maintain a sub anymore.

- - - Updated - - -

Petition blizz for a exclusive paypig server akin to tournament servers with access only for extra payment. Would be a fun social experiment.

I wish but I think I recall them talking about it once before and rejecting the idea. Or considering offering players the ability to rent private servers or something. I did play a MUD once which had a basic sub server and a separate premium sub server. Everything I heard was that the people on the premium server were extremely happy even though they paid four times more than the basic sub price. I think it included a lot of extra features and benefits which basic subs didn't get. Player homes and guild houses, QoL stuff like larger vaults, staff members who only worked on that server, and I think they actually allowed players to design portions of the game which were live and playable by everyone.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It will only be outdated once people stop paying it. Seems to not be a huge problem anymore. I mean like sub based streaming services seem to be huge and its more or less the same thing.. new content from time to time.. and tons of old content there to do inbetween or whatever..

[Roflfaceroll]

You entirely missed the point. I said you're a low quality customer not cheap. I have no idea whether you're responsible with your money or not but I can tell from your posts you're a low quality customer. The experience of being part of the WoW gaming community would improve exponentially if the price was raised so customers like you don't want to maintain a sub anymore.

In what way am I low quality? Just because I went full sarcasm on your bad idea of pricing up. It is understood that games like wow cost money to run, but your idea is just as bad as f2p. $70/mo? Really? $20/mon understandable maybe even $25/mo to adjust for the change to the economy. $70/mo? For what? No new content is being added other than items in the store. The expansions packs are a promise to the content that is to be released for that expansion which includes patch changes and dungeons/raids that will be later introduced as the story progresses. The sub has always been for server use and maintenance which includes hotfixes.

If anything you are overvaluing the price. We already have to purchase our own computer(do you know how much a computer with blizzards reccommended specs for DF costs?) Buy the game and internet/electric bill to play then pay the sub. $70/mon is way too much.

Also like I said before giving them more money doesn't equate to better quality. Your hope is that it would improve user experience, but if that isn't their prerogative then you are just paying them more for no reason.(kinda like f2p)

Not only that but your claim of low quality because I don't agree with paying that much and your hopes it will drive me and others unwilling or unable to pay that much is like telling people to fuck off because they are too poor to afford playing. Terrible terrible way to think. That is a form of discrimination. That way of thinking is of poor quality. I'd rather be poor than have money and have an poor ego like yours.

Here, you can take a look at this post from a prior lead of diablo 3. They even said the idea of blizzard games and pricing before was to be reasonable. Not what you are mentioning. https://www.thegamer.com/diablo-3-de...ing-pot-water/