IT'S TIME FOR A DEATH BATTLE! The Lich King Vs Sauron

[Makabreska]

That's just irrelevant. No one could've factored Tirion in lol

No one could factor presence of Tirion, while he was openly leading combined forces against him since first Northrend zone, met him during Argent Tournament, openly assaulted his citadel and defeated him in the recent past with the same weapon. "But muh hallowed ground?". Ok dude.

[Makabreska]

Yeah, no one could factor him breaking free from the Ice with the Light being that strong. How is that hard to grasp? To the Lich King, he thought he had Tirion pinned, with no other options available.

So I guess N'zoth also didn't fuck up. He just didn't consider HoA being able to blast him away at the last moment. Such master plans, foiled by those completely unpredictable little thingies.

[Varodoc]

Sauron disguises himself as Annatar, presents the Ring to Arthas, convinces him to wear it, and then takes him over. Like he did to the Numenorean king.

Arthas being a spoiled mortal fails to resist the temptations of the One Ring.

[MsSideEye]

Well, I wasn't expecting to thread to explode like that! And a lot of interesting discussion about things so far! But it seems for a lot of people, it comes down to one of the biggest aspects of Sauron's set up: The One Ring itself. While people point out, rightfully so, that Arthas himself was just a man who became corrupted by actions and, eventually, Frostmourne itself. And while I do agree that if we were talking about Arthas by himself, I could see him easily falling to the One Ring. The question then comes if that would actually effect him as the Lich King, whose own will isn't exactly a push over considering he commands and controls what is likely several million undead.

There is one thing I've got to ask though, from what I DO remember of the One Ring and Frostmourne's abilities... The One Ring itself houses a part of Sauron's soul. It's for that reason why he can't really be killed off without the destruction of the Ring itself. Frostmourne, however, can cut through most things and has the entire point of being able to shatter souls and draw them into the blade itself. Think that might be a deciding factor in the fight? Or would the Ring still be too much of a temptation of power for the Lich King, allowing Sauron to live on?

I'm curious as to folks thoughts.

[Ashnazg]

There's a lot of overestimation of Sauron's powers in this thread.

He was a lesser angel - yes, the most powerful of them, but still only a lesser angel. At the apex of his power he was defeated by three champions. He got his ass kicked with the ring in his possession multiple times prior to that (in army vs army combat).

Furthermore, even if he were to give his ring to Arthas and Arthas were to accept it, there's no solid evidence that it would work against the Lich King because he is already dominated/merged with a powerful and malevolent entity. If (and its a big IF) the ring were to work on it, again there's no evidence it would bind him to Sauron's will - only that it would further corrupt him. Even an elf queen without any significant magical powers is strong enough to be confident that she will replace Sauron rather than serve him. A powerful enough entity could claim the Ring of Power for itself and simply destroy Sauron with the power of the ring at its command.

Yes, Sauron is immune to death while the ring is intact, but simply destroying his physical shell every few millenia is sufficiently close to death that it would be a moot point.

[Xorzor]

If Sauron wins, then I hope Arthas gets a better send-off/death than he did in Shadowlands!

[Itori]

This is actually one of those mind bogglers. You got the Lich king which could command the dead and have millions of undead under his control, and possessed a fountain of personal power that he could bring down demon lords.

On the other hand you have Sauron who was an incredibly powerful "fallen angel" in the lord of the rings who even without a physical body still possessed a godlike influence and had millions in his army, even other fallen celestials that became the Balrog.

Honestly if this were a question about who's army is stronger it would be hands down Sauron, but personal power I think it should go to the lich king. I haven't read much of the books, but Sauron in his form didn't really hold much strength. He was mostly known for his influence. The Lich King on the other hand knew war and participated, developed his abilities fighting every race azeroth threw at him and even when he was losing his power traveling to the Frozen Throne he still managed to beat back illidan who was empowered at the time.

[Schattenlied]

It's not really Arthas here. It's the amalgamation that comprises the "Lich King" entity. And it may exult in that corrupted power, possibly either undermining the One Ring and Sauron, or simply absorbing it into one aggregate being. In either case it would be scary powerful.

Yes, but who really wins in that scenario? Not the Lich King, I think. Sauron would undoubtedly be the strongest entity, both in will and literal strength of spirit, fighting for the reigns of the "aggregate being", as his opponents just being the already decimated and possibly already gone spirit of an orc, and the spirit of a human, he would easily come out in control after destroying what little remains of their souls. In the end there would be no "aggregate being" because there would be no others inside the Lich King, just Suaron... I don't see the Helm or Frostmourne being able to have any control over an entity as powerful as Sauron (Anduin, a frekin baseline human, broke the same type of control over him, so that would be a cakewalk for Sauron), so in a roundabout way this would just end in Sauron absorbing the Lich King's abilities, rather than the Lich King absorbing Sauron.

I decline to believe the Jailer would ignore any interference from some off world interloper. At which point Sauron gets crushed brutally into the aggregate being that is the Lich King. The One Ring being thoroughly subverted to his use.

You greatly overestimate the influence the Jailor has over the Lich King... Bolvar, a baseline human, was able to resist him for like over a decade, and we have no signs he was going to crack under the pressure... A being like Sauron would literally laugh off the Jailor attempting to exert any influence over him whatsoever. I'd go so far as to say Sauron would likely find a way to use that connection to control the Jailor, rather than the Jailor controlling him.

[Chromeshellking]

It promises to be a match up to watch that is going to be riveting. But Im betting on Sauron, Though im sure it will be a fight worthy of legend.

[Mysterymask]

Going by what they usually grade by

Experience: Sauron by a long shot Arthas and Ner'zul combined are infants by comparison. Jailer being stuck in the Maw and unable to actually leave is a non issue

Strength and Speed: not too many good feats to compare them by I think Sauron has the edge

Durability: Sauron wins again. Arthas is still only human and if you factor their artifacts. The One Ring can only be destroyed by throwing it into a specific volcano while the helm and sword were both shattered by enough force

Abilities: tough to say on one hand anything Arthas kills becomes his own minions and he has the ability to raise them as Death Knights. However Saurons corrupting influence might just turn the undead ally back to his side again. The big factor is how resistant to his will they are. Arthas as a whole can't even resist his own corruption while several people were able to by sheer will alone.


Gonna say this is probably a typical death battle curb stomp with Sauron by a long shot winning

[Xilurm]

I've always felt like Arthas/LK has a pretty low powerlevel in comparison to a very large amount of Warcraft's character roster. Like, he's obviously strong, but his strength does not come from him alone, it comes from his power over undead. When he kills a soldier, he takes control over them, and thus, every time someone dies, it's not bad enough that the other side loses a soldier, their enemy also gains one.
Imo, Arthas would lose to, say, almost all the bosses in Molten Core, BWL, AQ etc in a 1v1, but would be able to defeat many of them through the sheer number of undeads he could produce.
I might also be totally wrong, but that's how I've always imagined him.

The Lich King was the first raid boss to kill the entire party, only for them to be saved by a deus ex machina. It was his grand goal in the first place, let them get more powerful throughout Northrend, and at the end fight them atop the Frozen Throne in order to raise the most powerful fighters the world has known as undead and wipe out all life from Azeroth.

[Yriel]

On the other hand you have Sauron who was an incredibly powerful "fallen angel" in the lord of the rings who even without a physical body still possessed a godlike influence and had millions in his army, even other fallen celestials that became the Balrog.

Honestly if this were a question about who's army is stronger it would be hands down Sauron, but personal power I think it should go to the lich king.

Not so sure. Saurons armies are all living, they all can die, even Balrogs as far as i know. Undead can't, they can be resummoned again and again. Plus you can summon all dead enemies and add them to your own army. In theory undead armies should be undefeatable once they have a certain size and in stories they are usually only ever beaten by some plot device.

[Doronjo]

There is really no comparaison, because it is low fantasy vs high fantasy

Army vs Army
How could Sauron's army, or even himself could do anything against a swarm of wyrm or Naxxramas. The biggest threat in Sauron's army are not that scary in the wow universe. Their beast can be killed by big birds, or simple human and the main weakness is semantic which is not going to go far in the warcraft universe.

Lich King vs The Ring
Some people raised the question of the ring corrupting ability...But I mean...without the need to point that Arthas already resisted domination magic or that to be tempted it requires to have destroyed Sauron in the first place...why would he even care about the ring ? To control others ? he can already do it to a way larger scale. To become invisible ?And it is not like he had an army of brainless uncorruptible minion to dispose of the ring.

Lich King Vs Sauron
Well an argument could be made about who can win, but once again...
At his peak, Sauron was defeated, several time, by normal mortals doing normals things. That is the point of LOTR, that people with only their strength of character could defeat Sauron and his army. You cannot do that with the Lich King because he is a very strong being in an universe full of very strong being.

And that is the main point.
Sauron is a formidable foe in his universe, because magic or technology is very limited, and yet he can be defeated.
How would Sauron fight in the wow universe ? Could he beat flying cities full of mages, dragons, army of paladins infused with magic

[Ashnazg]

The One Ring can only be destroyed by throwing it into a specific volcano while the helm and sword were both shattered by enough force

The One Ring can be destroyed by application of temperature higher than approximately 2-4k degrees Fahrenheit. I have a hard time believing that in WoW universe its all that difficult to achieve those temperatures. Lich King could simply have the ring chucked into the lava cracks near Molten Core if he felt inclined to destroy it.

Not that it would have even been necessary, since there is probably slim to 0 chance the ring would have been able to bind Lich King to Sauron's will in the first place.

[Mecheon]

While I'm not one for these things normally (As in all instances, the character who wins is "Whoever the author of the book/comic thinks would be more interesting to win), but my old Tolkein nerd history makes me duty-bound to hop in for one point...

The One Ring can be destroyed by application of temperature higher than approximately 2-4k degrees Fahrenheit. I have a hard time believing that in WoW universe its all that difficult to achieve those temperatures. Lich King could simply have the ring chucked into the lava cracks near Molten Core if he felt inclined to destroy it.

Not that it would have even been necessary, since there is probably slim to 0 chance the ring would have been able to bind Lich King to Sauron's will in the first place.

Molten Core wouldn't work. Its the place it was specifically made that'd destroy the Ring. While its not like it was ever tested with other lava, the implication is very much that it'd be fine from other stuff. Given it doesn't even become hot from fire, it doesn't obey thermodynamics, so all dropping it into MC would do is add another item to Ragnaros' drop table.

[Shadowferal]

If the "One Ring" comes to Azeroth, it turns into this;

[Ashnazg]

Molten Core wouldn't work. Its the place it was specifically made that'd destroy the Ring. While its not like it was ever tested with other lava, the implication is very much that it'd be fine from other stuff. Given it doesn't even become hot from fire, it doesn't obey thermodynamics, so all dropping it into MC would do is add another item to Ragnaros' drop table.

I think there's two ways to read the reference to Mt. Doom as the only place to destroy it. Here is what Tolkien had to say in his letters:

"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made – and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. (2)"

So aside from the fact that a better smith/magician than Sauron could untangle the enchantments on the ring, the ring itself is established as immune to any type of fire (including dragon fire according to Gandalf), except for the subterranean fire where it was made. One way to read it is as the only magma that would work for its destruction is the one in Mordor, and the other is that any magma would be sufficient to melt it, but Mordor is where the magma is actually possible to get to.

[Chromeshellking]

I think there's two ways to read the reference to Mt. Doom as the only place to destroy it. Here is what Tolkien had to say in his letters:

"The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made – and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. (2)"

So aside from the fact that a better smith/magician than Sauron could untangle the enchantments on the ring, the ring itself is established as immune to any type of fire (including dragon fire according to Gandalf), except for the subterranean fire where it was made. One way to read it is as the only magma that would work for its destruction is the one in Mordor, and the other is that any magma would be sufficient to melt it, but Mordor is where the magma is actually possible to get to.

Either way with or without their signature weapons/accessories I can see this going both ways to each other. Sauron corrupted many as he was very very patient and played the long game. Arthas as the Lich King achieved what most bosses didn't the entire band of heroes being obliterated as he was going to falter, and indeed if Tyrion had not been there the whole of Azeroth would be a total 1 faction of the Scourge.

If the One can be broken without the seat of Doom itself being needed to destroy it then its over. So which ever team Deathbattle is on is the one going to win so.

[Arkthugal]

It's tempting to say Sauron, but honestly Sauron kinda sucked in face-to-face combat? Arthas is definitely more powerful than Isildur.

The real question is whether the Ring is strong enough to overpower the runes of Domination that Arthas is already bound by. The Jailer is DEFINITELY on a higher power weight than Sauron, but his influence is much more distant.

I mean either way, "Arthas now has the One Ring" is kind of an Oh Shit moment for everyone.

[ringpriest]

It should be noted the finger slicing thing was a movie invention. Its not well detailed how he was defeated in that battle. In the books he took on Gil Galad and Elendir and was defeated by them (though killed both in the process), while Isildur cut off his finger after he was defeated.

Arthas has more powerful minions since warcraft has generally higher power levels, but Sauron's manipulative powers are quite potent.

Sauron's also a Maiar, though as much as their powers are conceptually extremely powerful, they don't get used much for some reason. I mean, it makes sense Gandalf isn't cause he's trying to lead the world to solve its own issues, but why is Sauron holding back?

Sauron is "holding back" because, in Tolkien's Middle-Earth, accomplishing great things with one's innate power expends that power permanently.

Let's take a (the) balrog for example. In the beginning, it was a bodiless spirit of the same general class as Sauron, but not quite as potent. It expended its innate power in taking an strong and terrifying form with a great deal of mastery over flame and shadow. That made it a devastating opponent in a duel or on a battlefield, and capable of inspiring immense terror... but it couldn't really do anything else. It couldn't even adapt or change after the War of Wrath, just hide.

Gandalf doesn't really spend his innate power because, as you say, he's trying to lead and inspire, and be the opposite of trying to force outcomes (though his "rules of engagement" do allow him to match power for power when it comes to beings like the Nazgul).

Sauron's a miser and a min-maxer when it comes to spending his innate supernatural power (which was very great in the beginning). With the Rings, he came up with not one, but two clever hacks to the general "controlling/changing things permanently expends power" rule.

First, he put his innate power into a external focus (the One Ring) and made that focus very broadly powerful. In RPG terms, think of it like a 10th level Wizard saying, "I'll sacrifice 5 levels to make a magic ring that gives me three bonus levels for every level I put into it, which means that with my magic ring, I'm effectively 20th level". Now, it wasn't quite that munchkin an exchange, because the One Ring only enhanced Sauron's power for certain things, not everything, but its scope was pretty broad - domination, control, and influence over living (and possibly dead) beings, and maybe over aspects of Mordor as well, and probably an increase to Sauron's raw physical power as well.

And secondly, the Ring let him control, or at least influence, the wielders of other Rings of Power made along the same principles (at least, that was his plan), and he got the Elves to make a bunch of these Rings, thus multiplying the power he effectively controlled again (plus giving him some awesome action economy).

Now, this "Ring scheme" failed big in two ways. Sauron's influence wasn't nearly subtle enough. The moment he powered-up the One, the Elves figured out the whole swindle, took off their Rings, and stopped using them. Once he'd taken (most) of their Rings away from them (the Seven and the Nine), and possibly corrupted them further, he gave them out to Men and Dwarves, who were not able to figure out the scam, and the Men, at least, fell fully under Sauron's influence. So, something of a partial success there.

The other failure was that Sauron needed to be in possession of the One Ring in order to fully wield the amplified power he'd placed in it. When he lost it, his power was significantly reduced. And even worse for him, when it was destroyed, all the power he'd expended was completely lost to him, and he was virtually annihilated.

Sauron's power peaked at the end of the Second Age, when he was wielding the One and had control of potent minions in the Nazgul. As you mention, he was physically killed, and lost the One Ring, which was an immense loss of effective power. He still existed as a spirit (though it took him a long time to re-embody himself), and was eventually able to dominate the Nazgul again (its unclear if this was via his remaining power, via the tenuous connection to the undestroyed One Ring, or possibly by taking the Nine from the Ringwraiths and then controlling them via those rings), and exercise a degree of mental control over his other underlings by late in the Third Age. But that seems to have been close to all he could do without direct possession of the One Ring.

Sauron never "cuts lose" in Lord of the Rings because he can't. He's bet everything on the One Ring, many centuries earlier, and now he's stuck waiting to see if and when he wins. (Spoiler - he doesn't. He could have won, but the house nudged the table just enough that could take a well-played game and win against his "unbeatable" Ring.)

And... that's probably enough ring-preaching for today.