Blizzard story writing and way people react to it.

[Feanoro]

human doormat

beloved Alliance

kow towing to the Alliance

And to think, there are people who question whether there are evil Horde fans.

This crap is exactly why there WILL be MoP 3.0, folks. The only thing missing was a list of dead Horde psychopaths, demanding they return to lead.

[geco]

And for a brief window that appeared to be the case, but Vol'jin's death followed by Warchief Sylvanas' invasion of Ashenvale and then into Darkshore brought an end to that brief window of peace, however.

As far as we know from Pandaria to BFA that forest was at peace. That's 2 expansions.

There is a cross-factional group called the Artisan's Consortium active across the Dragon Isles in Dragonflight that is composed of every playable race in WoW, including the Kaldorei. They pay little to no heed to faction boundaries, providing services to any and all who aren't obviously hostile. We don't really know what Tyrande's current views are as she has yet to feature in Dragonflight in any real sense, but given that the Kaldorei are represented both in the Consortium as well as participating in the Explorer's League (which is cooperating with the Reliquary for the first time), the implication would seem that the Alliance and Horde are mending the many rifts between themselves.

And from what you say they can be rough filing. That does not indicate anywhere that the Horde is not attacking Ashenvale. I mean Blizzard has already shown us that common sense is something that they do not apply to his story.

And to think, there are people who question whether there are evil Horde fans.

This crap is exactly why there WILL be MoP 3.0, folks. The only thing missing was a list of dead Horde psychopaths, demanding they return to lead.

Players sadly have little say in the Game.
Bone is seen in the "Night War" arc. Which is clearly added by fan complaints and yet it's an arc that ultimately accomplishes nothing.
(More than once they said that the Kaldorei had already "finished their revenge")

Blizzard only changes something when they see a huge negative effect on their $$ and that still doesn't mean that they're actually reacting to what's being asked.

Varok's death was convoluted nonsense though...

+10

[Aucald]

Por lo que savemos desde Pandaria hasta BFA ese bosque estuvo en paz. Eso son 2 expanciones.

I don't speak Spanish, so I had to run the above through translation to ensure I understand what you're saying. Following the close of MoP, Azeroth was subjected to two extradimensional incursions within 2 years - one by the Iron Horde from AU Draenor, and the other by a more globally spanning threat from the Legion directly. Needless to say, it's entirely likely a drawdown of the Horde presence in Ashenvale was likely the last thing on everyone's minds.

And from what you say they can be rough filing. That does not indicate anywhere that the Horde is not attacking Ashenvale. I mean Blizzard has already shown us that common sense is something that they do not apply to his story.

You can't really prove a negative, so beyond the obviousness of the Alliance and Horde's continued peace and willingness to cooperate 5 years after the events of Shadowlands, we're left to assume that the Ashenvale conflict is either no longer existent, or not relevant to anyone involved.

[Maljinwo]

Por lo que savemos desde Pandaria hasta BFA ese bosque estuvo en paz. Eso son 2 expanciones. 0

Te falló el google translate parece


Ashenvale was always a disputed zone with Warsong camp always looking for lumber. As vol'jin's treaty with Tyrande only extended to Aszhara

[geco]

Te falló el google translate parece


Ashenvale was always a disputed zone with Warsong camp always looking for lumber. As vol'jin's treaty with Tyrande only extended to Aszhara

TE MALDIGO GOOGLE

The treaty was Azhara for Ashenvale

"During the siege of Orgrimmar, the night elven sentinels were probably able to push through eastern Ashenvale as they reached Orgrimmar, bringing the gates of the city down with Glaive throwers. The treaty that followed Azshara remains firmly in the hands of the Horde after the battle of Talrendis Point, and the treaty of Orgrimmar also re-affirmed the Horde's claims on Azshara, in return for the relinquishment of Horde outposts in Ashenvale."
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ashenvale_war

I never find the official source of the T-T treaty

You can't really prove a negative, so beyond the obviousness of the Alliance and Horde's continued peace and willingness to cooperate 5 years after the events of Shadowlands, we're left to assume that the Ashenvale conflict is either no longer existent, or not relevant to anyone involved.

Well precisely in the Kalimndor book it says that the Ashenvale conflict is not Relevant to either the Horde or the Alliance. Only, of course, the Kaldorei continue to defend their lands and those were moments when they were already at "peace".

There is nothing that tells us that the conflicts are resolved.
Besides what would be your definition of "resolved"?
* The Kaldorei killed everyone in Ashenvale and Aszhara and it would be just as logical.
* The Kaldorei no longer have an army so there is no conflict.
* The Horde already destroyed the entire forest.
* The Horde is gone.
* The Alliance punished the Kaldorei for defending their lands.

They are all equally logical to "resolve conflict". We are already condoning a genocide, I don't see why not add another massacre or devastation.

PS: Apart from the logic, what everyone assumed was that Ashenvale was Kaldorei after BFA and it turned out not to be. Good for the power of the Night Warrior, good for the treaty. Why should it be any different now?

[Mehrunes]

And to think, there are people who question whether there are evil Horde fans.

This crap is exactly why there WILL be MoP 3.0, folks. The only thing missing was a list of dead Horde psychopaths, demanding they return to lead.

I'm sure the idea that describing a guy who betrayed the Horde to team up with the Alliance as an Alliance sycophant places anywhere specific on the morality spectrum, let alone on the evil side of it, made sense in your mind, but in an absolutely shocking turn of events the discrepancy between what makes sense in your head and what actually makes sense doesn't seem to have disappeared.

Ashenvale was always a disputed zone with Warsong camp always looking for lumber. As vol'jin's treaty with Tyrande only extended to Aszhara

The whole point of Tyrande ceding Azshara to the Horde for good was for the Horde to fuck off from Ashenvale in return.

[Aucald]

Well precisely in the Kalimndor book it says that the Ashenvale conflict is not Relevant to either the Horde or the Alliance. Only, of course, the Kaldorei continue to defend their lands and those were moments when they were already at "peace".

There is nothing that tells us that the conflicts are resolved.
Besides what would be your definition of "resolved"?
* The Kaldorei killed everyone in Ashenvale and Aszhara and it would be just as logical.
* The Kaldorei no longer have an army so there is no conflict.
* The Horde already destroyed the entire forest.
* The Horde is gone.
* The Alliance punished the Kaldorei for defending their lands.

They are all equally logical to "resolve conflict". We are already condoning a genocide, I don't see why not add another massacre or devastation.

PS: Apart from the logic, what everyone assumed was that Ashenvale was Kaldorei after BFA and it turned out not to be. Good for the power of the Night Warrior, good for the treaty. Why should it be any different now?

Given that nature of Ashenvale as sacred to the Kaldorei, there's really only one way to resolve the conflict between the Alliance and Horde in Ashenvale - the complete departure of the Horde from the forest followed by the dismantling of Horde fortifications still present there. It would be highly unlikely the Kaldorei would simply cede their claim on Ashenvale, and it's exceedingly unlikely the Alliance would punish the Kaldorei for defending their land, or that the Kaldorei no longer have a presence in the region.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "already condoning a genocide," I'm certainly not, and aside from Teldrassil itself I'm at a loss as to what you're referencing. Dragonflight is set 5 years Shadowlands, and this 5 or so years after Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor as well, so it's entirely likely that the remaining embers of conflict in Ashenvale receded in that time, leaving Ashenvale finally in the hands of the Kaldorei alone. We won't really know until some canon lore source gives the current state of affairs in the region, or when and if the region becomes in-game relevant once more and gets updated.

[Rozz]

So you're bothered that only "some" fans don't view the situation the same as you do? Not even that they "like" the current story, but that they're complacent and don't feel as strongly as you think they should?

Tbh, what does it matter? You specify that they are "some" and not a majority, so they're already easier to ignore if not just annoying to come across.

Who are you upset at? Players for not sharing the same criticisms as you? What do you hope to achieve by telling them that? How will that improve the game's story? How will that let the devs know what you think about their work?

[geco]

Given that nature of Ashenvale as sacred to the Kaldorei, there's really only one way to resolve the conflict between the Alliance and Horde in Ashenvale - the complete departure of the Horde from the forest followed by the dismantling of Horde fortifications still present there. It would be highly unlikely the Kaldorei would simply cede their claim on Ashenvale, and it's exceedingly unlikely the Alliance would punish the Kaldorei for defending their land, or that the Kaldorei no longer have a presence in the region.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "already condoning a genocide," I'm certainly not, and aside from Teldrassil itself I'm at a loss as to what you're referencing. Dragonflight is set 5 years Shadowlands, and this 5 or so years after Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor as well, so it's entirely likely that the remaining embers of conflict in Ashenvale receded in that time, leaving Ashenvale finally in the hands of the Kaldorei alone. We won't really know until some canon lore source gives the current state of affairs in the region, or when and if the region becomes in-game relevant once more and gets updated.

I speak of the Alliance and not of you.
The Alliance already left them alone to defend their lands according to Exploring Kalimndor. Anduin accused Tyrande of losing herself in revenge for attacking the Horde invading his lands. Anduin already denied him reinforcements while the Kaldorei were fighting on all fronts of the war.

I don't know the idea of the Alliance abandoning the Kaldorei as a punishment, not only is it not weird... it's that they practically did it already.

If the Horde leaves Kaldorei land it would be the most logical thing to do. But the most logical thing is that I had already done it by the time of Exploring Kalimndor and this is confirmed.

If after losing the war and signing the peace treaty they did not abandon it, there is no reason to suppose that later they did.

PS: To put it in other terms. During SW and half of BFA there was talk that the Kaldorei surely already had Ashenvale. That it was stupid to think that that was not going to happen.
And in the end "Exploring Kalimndor" came out to confirm that he was still in the hands of the Horde.

Why is this time different?
And I emphasize before we had a Thrall who wanted to make peace with the Kaldoreri now not even that.

[Feanoro]

@Mehrunes The only discrepancy here is between what you ranted compared to what Blizzard actually presented. According to you, Saurfang turning against Sylvanas is somehow betraying the Horde, while her actions of deliberately feeding the Horde into the meat grinder and sending them to hell for her own power was just dandy. According to you, anything short of the complete extermination of the Alliance is "bootlicking" and "kowtowing".

Those headcanon ideas and others similarly delusional are exactly why we had to suffer another "what is the Horde?" and "war is bad" expansion, because the writers realized you didn't get it the first time in MoP. You didn't get it again in BfA, so I'll see you in the inevitable MoP 3.0 expansion.

[Aresk]

Yes, but that wasn't Varock's plan in the slightest. Her plan was to kill her. Sylvanas speaking was a mistake. And a duel was going to have yes or yes witnesses. Cairne and Garrosh had it.

The only difference is that Garrosh didn't think to say in the middle of the duel that all the Races of the Horde are useless and don't deserve to be in the Horde.

None of that indicates that Varok's death was pointless, though. And having a duel in front of the people of Orgrimmar and the Alliance/rebel armies is very different than having a duel in front of a group of military that were just complicit in committing what the lore describes as genocide.

Varok's death was convoluted nonsense though. First of all, it relied on Sylvanas accepting a Mak'gora from a human doormat on the premise she wanted him to suffer, when she could have made him suffer significantly more if she told him to fuck off, pushed things to the fight that Saurfang was trying to avoid and deliberately killed him last (or just captured him) to make him witness the fall of his beloved Alliance, as their force was significantly weaker there by Alliance's leaders' own admission (kinda why Saurfang wanted to solve this by avoiding the siege in the first place). All of which would have been more in line with Sylvanas' secret Shadowlands agenda (that was totally thought of by Blizzard when the BfA storyline was put in motion) of causing as much death as possible.

And even that aside, Saurfang only achieved his own secret objective of goading Sylvanas because the writers made Sylvanas gargle on the idiot ball. After she shouted that the Horde is nothing there was a significant pause, during which the Forsaken herald merely raised an eyebrow. It's what came afterwards that revealed her true feelings. And she could have easily salvaged the situation by instead adding that the Horde is nothing "without me" or "a strong Warchief to lead it" and then berated his own ideals of kow towing to the Alliance as the source of weakness in the Horde. The only reason Saurfang's death wasn't pointless was due to multi-level plot-induced idiocy on the part of his opponent.

I won't deny that it was convoluted, and the outcome is likely far better than Saurfang should have expected, but I still found it a wiser course of action than Cairne challenging Garrosh to an impulsive duel and then failing to enforce traditional requirements that led to his own defeat (particularly when observing his most treacherous rival was in Garrosh's corner) or Vol'jin's making overt threats against the warchief that led to his near assassination. Likewise, I think it was ultimately a better course of action than just challenging Sylvanas in front of a burning world tree, when she still had greater support and he had none.

[Loreth88]

The problem is that we have high expectations for a game's story because it's not a book like lord of the rings. The history of warcraft is not written and built by one person, but by many, perhaps too many. We have now reached the point where story related books like WOTA are of no use to the current story because they change it. In the WOTa story, the dragons lived separately in large caves, had their own environment, and did not take on humanoid forms. And in Dragonflight, on the other hand, I feel that the dragons are not dragons at all, but a humanoid race that sometimes transforms into dragons, they have beautiful buildings, but they are unnecessary for dragons, since they would not need such.
The story will never be as good as a Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or any other book, but it could be acceptable, if the writers were consistent.

[MsSideEye]

The problem is that we have high expectations for a game's story because it's not a book like lord of the rings. The history of warcraft is not written and built by one person, but by many, perhaps too many. We have now reached the point where story related books like WOTA are of no use to the current story because they change it. In the WOTa story, the dragons lived separately in large caves, had their own environment, and did not take on humanoid forms. And in Dragonflight, on the other hand, I feel that the dragons are not dragons at all, but a humanoid race that sometimes transforms into dragons, they have beautiful buildings, but they are unnecessary for dragons, since they would not need such.
The story will never be as good as a Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings or any other book, but it could be acceptable, if the writers were consistent.

It's not even a problem of having consistent writers, but a set bible they've got to go to. A good example would be how Transformers does things. While you will get both good and bad ideas aplenty no matter what kind of stories you're going to get, because they've got a document that spells out things that MUST be followed, you're assured SOME quality in the product, even when someone like Mr. Explosion and Boobs gets their hands on it.

The problem is that I'm almost certain that no such thing was ever done for Warcraft and, as we've sen with some expansions, it's a lot of 'Hey, this idea is cool, let's go with that.' It's things like that which lead to WoD and Shadowlands in the first place. They were so infatuated with the idea of how they could they never stopped and think if they should.

[geco]

None of that indicates that Varok's death was pointless, though. And having a duel in front of the people of Orgrimmar and the Alliance/rebel armies is very different than having a duel in front of a group of military that were just complicit in committing what the lore describes as genocide.

Ok, let me clarify why I didn't say this.
But a challenge of that level would be in front of Ogrimar with various Horde races looking on.
As was Cairne.

Apart from being done without a threat from an army they could take the time to do all the rituals like they did with Cairne. It would be even more Honorable that fight.

[Itisamuh]

This is a false premise echoed way too much. Good writing is objective. Jane Austen was a good writer. Especially for her day. I personally find her subject matter boring af. But that part is subjective.

Blizzards writing has never been stellar post the "golden era". However the amount of plot holes, inconsistencies and blatant retcons has increased as time as moved on in a careless pace. It is objectively bad regardless of an individuals ability to overlook it for enjoyment or not.

Blizzard writing has never, ever been stellar, which was my point. People act like the writing has only turned ridiculous in recent years, when in actuality it was always, at best, interesting on an extremely shallow level, even back in the days of the original Warcraft. Warcraft has always been childish and goofy, best not taken seriously. Shadowlands to me is no different in that regard, just another chapter in a silly but mildly interesting story. And to whoever mentioned good and bad authors, frankly, just because something is popular does not mean it was good writing. Harry Potter was incredibly popular, still is to this day, but it had an absurd amount of plot holes and stupidity to anyone who looked at it even slightly critically.

[Aucald]

I speak of the Alliance and not of you.
The Alliance already left them alone to defend their lands according to Exploring Kalimndor. Anduin accused Tyrande of losing herself in revenge for attacking the Horde invading his lands. Anduin already denied him reinforcements while the Kaldorei were fighting on all fronts of the war.

I don't know the idea of the Alliance abandoning the Kaldorei as a punishment, not only is it not weird... it's that they practically did it already.

If the Horde leaves Kaldorei land it would be the most logical thing to do. But the most logical thing is that I had already done it by the time of Exploring Kalimndor and this is confirmed.

If after losing the war and signing the peace treaty they did not abandon it, there is no reason to suppose that later they did.

PS: To put it in other terms. During SW and half of BFA there was talk that the Kaldorei surely already had Ashenvale. That it was stupid to think that that was not going to happen.
And in the end "Exploring Kalimndor" came out to confirm that he was still in the hands of the Horde.

Why is this time different?
And I emphasize before we had a Thrall who wanted to make peace with the Kaldoreri now not even that.

The Alliance didn't condone genocide, either - lack of immediate reprisal is not tantamount to condoning it, and the Alliance was already embroiled in multiple conflicts with the Horde already at that point (part of what made the atrocity at Teldrassil possible was the Alliance forces being busy fighting the Horde in Silithus). While you can argue as to whether that strategic decision was correct on Anduin's part, it's far from condoning what happened - but the practical point was that the Alliance was already at war with the Horde at that time, and massive repositioning could incur more losses. The fact that the Alliance canonically won all of BfA's battlegrounds also goes to show that Anduin's calculus was essentially correct in this matter.

As for the Ashenvale situation, the rough timeline starting with the close of MoP is that there was a treaty that gave the Horde access to Azshara (which was essentially a formality given the Horde already occupying the region entirely), in exchange for their departure from Ashenvale. We don't really know if that treaty was actually ever honored from an in-game perspective, but we can likely assume a staged draw-down of Horde forces there. Then WoD happened, followed by the global catastrophe of the Legion invasion, which was swiftly followed by the igniting of the Fourth War where Ashenvale became a major front, increasing the Horde presence there substantially and likely restarting lumbering operations in Ashenvale to feed the Horde's war machine. At the close of BfA and the restructuring of the Horde's leadership, this operation was likely still going as the Horde was noted to be in need of resources following the disastrous outcome of the Fourth War for them. In light of the armistice agreement, it is likely that the Horde again began a draw-down of forces in Ashenvale, which wasn't completed by the time the events of Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor occur. By the time of Dragonflight, 5 years later, it would seem relations between the Kaldorei and the Horde are improved enough for them to work together in the Dragon Isles, which would strongly imply that Ashenvale is no longer a flashpoint, or that it has become such a minor conflict that at least civilian outfits can work past it.

[Kralljin]

Blizzard writing has never, ever been stellar, which was my point. People act like the writing has only turned ridiculous in recent years, when in actuality it was always, at best, interesting on an extremely shallow level, even back in the days of the original Warcraft.

I've gone over this in a previous post and frankly disagree with this.

You're effectively saying that because Warcraft's story was never super deep, the writing was always bad and therefore it's silly criticize it.
I do not believe a story needs to be deep to be enjoyable, i don't believe that a story needs to be serious to be enjoyable, but it needs to be good in other areas to make up for this.

Story of Warcraft has been simplistic, but it rarely tried to be that deep and worked off its setting that made it overall engaging and enjoyable, not great but something that certainly qualifies as "good enough".
Shadowlands story however threw that setting out of the window right off the bat, especially with badly trying to pretend "that what's always been planned" ("Eternity's end is the end of 20 years saga started in Warcraft 3") or trying to shoehorn references to characters that frankly have little relevance to the overall story (such as Calia stating that Arthas' actions " hang like a shadow" over the events of Shadowlands, despite the fact that Arthas has had little relevance to Shadowlands story overall).

Shadowlands story tried that badly to be serious and that is precisely why it get pecked apart that badly, because it simply failed at being an engaging story.
I think Shadowlands very character focused storytelling exposed especially a major issue in Blizzards writing: The lack of charismatic characters.
And that is a big fucking problem when you attempt to tell a character focused story.

Previous iterations of Warcraft (barring WC3) avoided this issue by just not focusing on a small set of characters, BfA / Shadowlands did that and it absolutely blew in their faces.

I think even the story of the best video games have some serious, gaping plotholes or inconsistencies that would, if they were to happen in a worse story, get torn to shreds mercilessly, but because the rest of the story makes up for it, they get away with it.
That's the thing, a story needs to have redeeming qualities to get away with its bad elements, the story of Shadowlands (and the current direction of its storytelling) does not have that.

Pretending that Warcraft's writing has always been equally bad is in my view just a very superficial stance that denies any nuance of issues (because the way Blizzard tells their story has certainly changed) and also implies that millions of people somehow got engaged in a universe that was always badly written, which is a very shaky hypothesis considering millions of people have been engaged with this franchise.

[sam86]

I mean, other than having their own cultures completely seperate from anything else we had in seen in WoW at the time, their own wars and events (The figthing with the Klaxxi, the Thunder King, etc), and in general having a lot more fleshed out history and an idea to them than any other expansion that didn't tie back into a huge ass narrative that ended up being pointless?

nelfs did have many events, trolls had tons of events with everyone, pandas stayed the same
pandas kept the exact same status of their lands since they took over their lands 10k years, Thunder King happened before they isolated pandalands, klaxxi war was same and constant for entire time
they added nothing, innovated nothing, that boring simple fact, the closet to them for inactivity is nelfs and they had entire forest and war of AQ events to name, and their role in wc3 saving the entire world (something that humans of SW were afk from...)

[geco]

The Alliance didn't condone genocide, either - lack of immediate reprisal is not tantamount to condoning it, and the Alliance was already embroiled in multiple conflicts with the Horde already at that point (part of what made the atrocity at Teldrassil possible was the Alliance forces being busy fighting the Horde in Silithus). While you can argue as to whether that strategic decision was correct on Anduin's part, it's far from condoning what happened - but the practical point was that the Alliance was already at war with the Horde at that time, and massive repositioning could incur more losses. The fact that the Alliance canonically won all of BfA's battlegrounds also goes to show that Anduin's calculus was essentially correct in this matter.

As for the Ashenvale situation, the rough timeline starting with the close of MoP is that there was a treaty that gave the Horde access to Azshara (which was essentially a formality given the Horde already occupying the region entirely), in exchange for their departure from Ashenvale. We don't really know if that treaty was actually ever honored from an in-game perspective, but we can likely assume a staged draw-down of Horde forces there. Then WoD happened, followed by the global catastrophe of the Legion invasion, which was swiftly followed by the igniting of the Fourth War where Ashenvale became a major front, increasing the Horde presence there substantially and likely restarting lumbering operations in Ashenvale to feed the Horde's war machine. At the close of BfA and the restructuring of the Horde's leadership, this operation was likely still going as the Horde was noted to be in need of resources following the disastrous outcome of the Fourth War for them. In light of the armistice agreement, it is likely that the Horde again began a draw-down of forces in Ashenvale, which wasn't completed by the time the events of Exploring Azeroth: Kalimdor occur. By the time of Dragonflight, 5 years later, it would seem relations between the Kaldorei and the Horde are improved enough for them to work together in the Dragon Isles, which would strongly imply that Ashenvale is no longer a flashpoint, or that it has become such a minor conflict that at least civilian outfits can work past it.

So finding a quote in the novel where it says that the Kaldorei have Ashenvale is not enough to assume that the Kaldorei have Ashenvale.

But let nothing be said on the subject and let us be in peace (as we have been before) if it is enough to assume that the Horde has left Ashenvale.

And No. There is no sign yet that the Horde faced consequences for the genocide. Once they freed themselves from Sylvanas they were "forgiven" apparently.

[Aucald]

So finding a quote in the novel where it says that the Kaldorei have Ashenvale is not enough to assume that the Kaldorei have Ashenvale.

But let nothing be said on the subject and let us be in peace (as we have been before) if it is enough to assume that the Horde has left Ashenvale.

And No. There is no sign yet that the Horde faced consequences for the genocide. Once they freed themselves from Sylvanas they were "forgiven" apparently.

The quote never said "the Kaldorei have Ashenvale," only that a treaty was drafted to remove the Horde from Ashenvale in exchange for Azshara. Treaties are unfortunately drafted but not recognized or realized all the time, just that the Horde didn't honor its part of the arrangement in a timely manner (hard a first for them).

Also, the Horde not yet facing the consequences for Teldrassil is by no means equivalent to the Alliance condoning it, or even the Horde condoning it for that matter - it's a deeply unfortunate reality, and they may well never be forgiven for it, but some in the Alliance, as well as the Horde, may also view Sylvanas as a third party agent now, and rightly or wrongly may not hold the Horde in its entity as responsible for the outcome in Teldrassil. The Horde could quite easily sell it as a Second War v2.0 if they were so inclined - with the Jailer and the Mawsworn serving in the place of Kil'jaeden and the Legion. I don't personally buy that rationale, but other people in-game might, just as it was felt by many that the Old Horde's corruption by the demons was a mitigating factor.