Nathanos is proof players only want to be idolized in the story

[Aucald]

Plural champions, no plural hearts, plural children taken together, because literally all life on azeroth would be taken if azeroth were to die.
that does not mean every living creature on azeroth has a heart of azeroth.

multiple people can make 1 thing.
and if there was 1 per person, why would it mention 1 thing being made by multiple people, and not 1 made by 1 person, that way each person has their own?

So lets compare it


We have a chair.
A symbol of comfort
made by the people in shop class.

That does not imply every single person made their own chair, that implies every single person worked together to make A CHAIR.

if it was plural it would be
A symbol of comfort
Each made by the people in shop class.

or

A symbol of comfort, Made by each of the people in shop class.


It lists singular item, plural creators, no where does it imply multiple items, only multiple people, it lists a singular item.

Except Champions of Azeroth bear a Heart of Azeroth, the item denoting their championship of the world and their communion with it. If the Heart only explicated a single champion, its text would read "A living symbol of hope, borne by the [b]champion[/i] of a dying planet," instead of the plural champions. The Heart of Azeroth also doesn't have plural creators - it was created by Azeroth herself, and given into Brann's keeping to bestow on her champions. The champions are what are noted as plural in the text, not the creators, nor anyone else (save the "children" who could either refer to the plural champions or all the denizens of Azeroth depending).

There's also a strong correlation that denotes a bearer of the Heart of Azeroth as what causes the relics of the First Ones in the Maw to activate, denoting a Maw Walker - meaning that in order to be a Maw Walker as a PC (of which we know there are many), you need to have been attuned to and borne a Heart of Azeroth at some point.

[FelPlague]

Except Champions of Azeroth bear a Heart of Azeroth, the item denoting their championship of the world and their communion with it. If the Heart only explicated a single champion, its text would read "A living symbol of hope, borne by the [b]champion[/i] of a dying planet," instead of the plural champions. The Heart of Azeroth also doesn't have plural creators - it was created by Azeroth herself, and given into Brann's keeping to bestow on her champions. The champions are what are noted as plural in the text, not the creators, nor anyone else (save the "children" who could either refer to the plural champions or all the denizens of Azeroth depending).

There's also a strong correlation that denotes a bearer of the Heart of Azeroth as what causes the relics of the First Ones in the Maw to activate, denoting a Maw Walker - meaning that in order to be a Maw Walker as a PC (of which we know there are many), you need to have been attuned to and borne a Heart of Azeroth at some point.

1- Not all champions have to, we are called champions of azeroth even before BFA.
and again it was born of the champions, but it is a singular item, cause again multiple people together can create an item

2- no you just need to have a connection to azeroth, we have seen maw walkers before us, during questing you even come across a dead maw walker who died at the burning of teldrassil. hell, sylvanas was a maw walker in wotlk.

[Aucald]

1- Not all champions have to, we are called champions of azeroth even before BFA.
and again it was born of the champions, but it is a singular item, cause again multiple people together can create an item

2- no you just need to have a connection to azeroth, we have seen maw walkers before us, during questing you even come across a dead maw walker who died at the burning of teldrassil. hell, sylvanas was a maw walker in wotlk.

Again, there's a difference between the Champion of a given Order Hall in Legion, and the Champion of Azeroth as depicted in BfA. We only actually become true champions of Azeroth on receiving a Heart in the Heart chamber, before that, the term is more an appellation as opposed to a bona fide fact (e.g. Azeroth herself choosing us directly, represented by the Heart).

The spirits of the dead of Teldrassil are in the Maw because everyone goes to the Maw post-Legion due to the shenanigans with Argus. The Kaldorei dead of Teldrassil aren't Maw Walkers specifically because they cannot leave the Maw - in point of fact, a Maw Walker is actually required to hoover them up using their Soul crystal and return to them Ardenweald during the Night Fae Covenant campaign's events. Sylvanas is a Maw Walker, but she's a special case, given special dispensation to come and go due to the Jailer's power. The PCs are Maw Walkers because their presence is able to activate the First One Waystones in the Maw and return them to Oribos. This was made canon at the 2019 BlizzCon during the lore panel:

[...] We, heroes of Azeroth, with a unique bond to the world-soul of Azeroth herself, find ourselves uniquely able to escape the Maw.” (Source)

There are multiple PC Maw Walkers canonically, and the Heart of Azeroth (our special connection to Azeroth) is what made the Waystone react, therefore multiple Hearts for each respective PC Maw Walker.

[FelPlague]

Again, there's a difference between the Champion of a given Order Hall in Legion, and the Champion of Azeroth as depicted in BfA. We only actually become true champions of Azeroth on receiving a Heart in the Heart chamber, before that, the term is more an appellation as opposed to a bona fide fact (e.g. Azeroth herself choosing us directly, represented by the Heart).

The spirits of the dead of Teldrassil are in the Maw because everyone goes to the Maw post-Legion due to the shenanigans with Argus. The Kaldorei dead of Teldrassil aren't Maw Walkers specifically because they cannot leave the Maw - in point of fact, a Maw Walker is actually required to hoover them up using their Soul crystal and return to them Ardenweald during the Night Fae Covenant campaign's events. Sylvanas is a Maw Walker, but she's a special case, given special dispensation to come and go due to the Jailer's power. The PCs are Maw Walkers because their presence is able to activate the First One Waystones in the Maw and return them to Oribos. This was made canon at the 2019 BlizzCon during the lore panel:

[...] We, heroes of Azeroth, with a unique bond to the world-soul of Azeroth herself, find ourselves uniquely able to escape the Maw.” (Source)

There are multiple PC Maw Walkers canonically, and the Heart of Azeroth (our special connection to Azeroth) is what made the Waystone react, therefore multiple Hearts for each respective PC Maw Walker.

Aucald mate...
i am gunna give you a break, cause idk how many times i need to say this.


https://twitter.com/wowhead/status/1353795353439477760

we the player are revealed as the TRUE MAW WALKER, the one spoken of in prophecy.
however maw walkers have been seen many times before.

Also we dont have our heart of azeroth when we enter the maw, as leaving azeroth it even says it no longer works, is is our connection to azeroth that makes it work, not the heart of azeroth, as there has been maw walkers before, multiple of them, including a dead night elf, and sylvanas herself.

[Jinnobi]

I think Nathanos was a great character.

People always say "In WoW we used to be adventurers not these main characters that saved the world multiple times. It felt more realistic.".

However, in BfA we had Nathanos treating us like nobodies. He constantly treated us as common soilders. Not some world saving heroes. But people hated him.

Then they (blizz devs) just killed him without any lore thought at all as a pre-expansion event to Shadowlands. Vanished like he never existed.

Now we get these "Dragonflight Legacies" videos where yet again, this Drakthyr that is YOU, THE GREAT HERO AND SAVIOR OF AZEROTH, again being the main focus of all the 3 videos so far.

Enjoy being called a god amongst men for the entire expansion. Fun story telling. Hero of Azeroth. Planeswalker. What else can we call you? "Savior of the Dragon Isles"?

Personally I don't like this kind of storytelling, but please don't be surprised that this is the way the game will keep pushing for the forseeable future, Planeswalker.

Agree 100%.

Nathanos was truly of a different time and game-creating mentality. He didn't lick your ass, but if you took the time to actually talk to him -- or overhear what he had to say -- his stance and worldview made a great deal of sense, at least if you put yourself in his shoes.

Yes, he started out "annoying" but that's because he saw you as Sylvanas' favored one; and all his life (and unlife) he was literally in love with her. He truly was.

I'm pretty sure he was the only person who saw the lingering fragments of good in her, kind of like Luke Skywalker still believed and could sense the lingering good in Darth Vader, despite his atrocities. Which implies he had lingering good in himself. He wasn't outright evil; he was about as "evil" as old school Varian Wrynn, who attempted to murder Thrall and Sylvanas.

The fact that Nathanos was murdered in such a halfass way, with very little fanfare, and unforgivably was not in Shadowlands in any capacity is poor storytelling, in my opinion. And I'm not one to criticize Blizzard like the general butthurt Blizzard-hater criticizes Blizzard; however, I will call out BS when I see it.

The way they treat Nathanos was BS. I feel like he never happened. That shouldn't ever be the case with an important story NPC that's been around since what, TBC?

[Aucald]

Aucald mate...
i am gunna give you a break, cause idk how many times i need to say this.

https://i.imgur.com/bdEoqxI.png
https://twitter.com/wowhead/status/1353795353439477760

we the player are revealed as the TRUE MAW WALKER, the one spoken of in prophecy.
however maw walkers have been seen many times before.

Also we dont have our heart of azeroth when we enter the maw, as leaving azeroth it even says it no longer works, is is our connection to azeroth that makes it work, not the heart of azeroth, as there has been maw walkers before, multiple of them, including a dead night elf, and sylvanas herself.

It would have to be a random Kaldorei Maw Walker and former CoA, then; because the dead of Teldrassil very obviously can't leave the Maw themselves - hence the many quests to retrieve their souls from the Maw. Also, everyone who does the intro scenario for Shadowlands is wearing the Heart, because it was pretty much required for all of BfA. It is inactive in the Shadowlands, but it still represents our link to Azeroth, the link that the Waystones respond to and are activated by. Lore-wise, you would've had it on you at the time and period when the intro takes place.

Your above snippet also shows that the Kaldorei Maw Walker in question was very different from the other souls, explaining how extraction from Maw Walkers specifically grants increased yields of anima and stygia, further underlining that it wasn't just an ordinary soul among the newly dead.

Also, this topic has gone rather far afield from the point of the thread, which is discussing Nathanos' character specifically. If you want to continue the debate via PM I'm fine with that, but it's not really relevant to this thread.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Had Sylvanas used domination magic on Nathanos, or was he just so besotten he'd do anything for her no matter how evil? If the latter, then I'd say he was morally worse than Sylvanas, and deserves the Maw as his forever home.

[Evaddon]

Nah I loved him he's one of my favorite characters, he's one of the few who never completely flipped his script and acted completely out of character or had some random unexplained power creep out of nowhere! And yes, I loved him shit talking down to me and being a completely sarcastic ass. That was his character!

Some players weirdly hate him because of his love for Sylvanas...which is weird because I never understood why it was a bad thing he was devoted to someone he loved? Again that was his character!!!! I just wish he would've got some pay off but he's apparently just tossed somewhere in the Maw?

[Feanoro]

never completely flipped his script and acted completely out of character

Until Danuser decided that Forsaken can feel love.

some random unexplained power creep out of nowhere

Like being only an undead with a bow, but somehow able to go up against not just Tyrande, but a Tyrande granted power we're told can solo Old Gods?

Some players weirdly hate him because of his love for Sylvanas...which is weird because I never understood why it was a bad thing he was devoted to someone he loved?

1) Undead were canonically incapable of love prior to Danuser making Nathanos his self-insert.
2) Danuser doing this to RP about loving Sylvanas was incredibly creepy.

[FelPlague]

It would have to be a random Kaldorei Maw Walker and former CoA, then; because the dead of Teldrassil very obviously can't leave the Maw themselves - hence the many quests to retrieve their souls from the Maw. Also, everyone who does the intro scenario for Shadowlands is wearing the Heart, because it was pretty much required for all of BfA. It is inactive in the Shadowlands, but it still represents our link to Azeroth, the link that the Waystones respond to and are activated by. Lore-wise, you would've had it on you at the time and period when the intro takes place.

Your above snippet also shows that the Kaldorei Maw Walker in question was very different from the other souls, explaining how extraction from Maw Walkers specifically grants increased yields of anima and stygia, further underlining that it wasn't just an ordinary soul among the newly dead.

Also, this topic has gone rather far afield from the point of the thread, which is discussing Nathanos' character specifically. If you want to continue the debate via PM I'm fine with that, but it's not really relevant to this thread.

Again read the qoute, it states there is many maw walkers in captivity.
And no, we are not wearing the heart, we leave it behind. Where in the lore does it say we still wear it, cause at the end of bfa it basically is right out drained to heal the planet...

No it was not what activated the waystone or the NPCs would say ", it is reacting to the heart of Azeroth!" Not "it is reacting to you!"

But yeah I'm done here.

[VladlTutushkin]

Until Danuser decided that Forsaken can feel love.

Like being only an undead with a bow, but somehow able to go up against not just Tyrande, but a Tyrande granted power we're told can solo Old Gods?

1) Undead were canonically incapable of love prior to Danuser making Nathanos his self-insert.
2) Danuser doing this to RP about loving Sylvanas was incredibly creepy.

That.

Power that supposedly so mighty that it allowed some ancient elf to expand the Empire almost single handedly.

That gay elk guy managed to solo a fully unleashed old god.

And gal from Revendreth conquered her world entirely and became a tyrant before dying from power overload or maybe suicide.

Apparently only strong enough to fight a single undead with a bow and two valkyr enemies who we defeated at lvl 40 with a bunch of militia.

And she actually lost to him in beta until Red Shirt Guy called Blizz and personally begged them not to fuck the lore THAT much.

[Mumba]

That's why I actually like him. He was a main character with a real personality. Just like any other leader he has flaws, but he doesn't care about them. The fact that he sees himself as superior and no "talk-no-jutsu" will work on him is a big upside. Just like Garrosh, he never abandoned his ideology, compared to say Jaina, who I never could take serious since she at first was a saviour of peace, but then it turns out she was just selfish and turned on the horde when it affected her for real, to later on redeem herself.
A corrupted mind is such a worn out subject in WoW that people who actually are assholes are refreshing.

[Flurryfang]

ANd how do you know what players want? you only know what YOU want. There are many players who are fine with being champions of the "hero of the world" because guess what? We have taken down old gods, the Lich King, Blackwing. and many other things. Stop acting like all player want what you want. Because what you are really saying is "It shows nothing about what "I" want".

What the hell are you talking about? I made NO assumptions about what players want, because yeah, nobody knows. That is why you don't make sentences like "many players are fine with being champions", because with no data to talk from, what the hell do YOU or i know about what players like?

Thanks for the out of nowhere attack on things i did not even say, looking forward to the next one you make.

[Myradin]

The humans created the undead and also refused to save them.

Humans, collectively as a species did not make the undead.

Heck humans didn't even make it. Even in old lore it was technically the burning legion using Ner'zhul, an Orc. Said orc then used some generally outcast humans to get his plan

Sylvanas proved to the night elves that the humans wouldn't save them either. The goal was to get the Night Elves to break off and unaffiliate with the Alliance, and therefore they would not need to attack the Horde anymore. Peace could be negotiated with the Night Elves returning to their territory and giving back the land they stole to the Horde.

But the night elves didn't steal horde territory? Heck, the other way around. The alliance v horde war would probably barely be a thing if the horde didn't repeatedly beat up the night elves for their resources.

Also destroying a capitol isn't a great way to tell people 'lets negotiate'.

People got fixed on "but innocent people coulda died in the tree fire" who also ignore stuff like that humans kept orcs as pets/slaves and literally forced them to fight to the death for entertainment.

Innocent people did die in the tree fire.

The internment camps, as planned, are probably the most humanitarian thing planned in all of warcraft. Yes, their owner was corrupt and did abuse the orcs, which was wrong. But every other invading force (heck, forces that just already occupy lands), is just put to the sword by the horde and alliance. But after the 2nd war, the alliance goes and makes a wellfare state effectively to keep the orcs alive. The Horde would have never extended to them the same courtesy. The last people the horde defeated were made into a road.

[rrayy]

What the hell are you talking about? I made NO assumptions about what players want, because yeah, nobody knows. That is why you don't make sentences like "many players are fine with being champions", because with no data to talk from, what the hell do YOU or i know about what players like?

Thanks for the out of nowhere attack on things i did not even say, looking forward to the next one you make.

You literally said this:

What does this has to do with what "players" want? It more sounds like the devs are once again pushing for this "be the hero of the world" agenda, that they have kept going for the last many years. It shows nothing about what the players want.

How can you say it shows nothing about what the players want if you don't even know what they want? Since you only know what you want, then you can only claim "They don't know what *I* want".

As for the data I base my stance on, I go back to almost every thread created about this on this topic on this fourm. They all have more people who are fine with being a hero than those that want to be nobody adventurers. The threads are almost always "OP wants to be a nobody. Almost everyone else calls him out in response".

[Ramz]

Nathanos is poor example, becuase he was overexposed and his motivations for his actions (basically simping for Sylvanas) were not really a respectable trait. It's one thing when one does it's chores out of duty and respect, while being harsh. And another thing is when you're obviously drooling for someone else (he was constantly emphasising importance of "Pleasing the Warchief") and being also hypocritical twit on the way - because he never adressed his screw ups, it was only the others that were incompetent, and when the PC came to rescue he was sarcastic and ungrateful.
He didn't have to glorify PC, becuase I hate it too. And I don't mind one jab or two at times, but he was doing it constantly, while also being insufferable.

Better example of NPC that wasn't licking boots of PC would be Taran Zhu, and I was one of the people that were defending him. His mistrust came from his direct experience, he had every right to be judgemental of both Alliance and Horde, he is a man of duty and his mission was to protect his homeland, that we- as players invaded. It was a long way but he eventually manged to work around us and Pandaria while it went through many hardships eventually overcame them once and for all the moment Heart of Y'shaarj stopped beating.

I am all for NPCs to be mistrustful of PC, we might be heroes to our faction and some other people, but our actions also breed lots of problems so I would see no issue in being questioned.

And I'd be perfectly fine with title 'Mercenary' - because players would do anything for 3pic l00t.

[Baraden]

Resoundingly one of the biggest complaints regardling lore is how the player is now some super champion everyone has heard of - that doesn't change the fact nathanos was a dick and CLEARLY a self-insert character; you can't introduce a major character (yes I'm aware he's existed since vanilla but he was no one until Legion) and give them all this unearned status and screen time - there are plenty of horde characters we've loved for years who were far more deserving of the development he got

- - - Updated - - -

most players of wow don't seem to grasp that we are all the one true champion of azeroth, its just one guy, all players is the same guy.

Sometimes the game acknowledges that there are more "players" or champions, but there is only ever one true player hero, the one that does all the stuff that can only be done once by one guy.

Isn't that contravened by Chronicles? All the big bads we've faced are said to have been dealt with a bunch of different adventurers etc IIRC

[Varodoc]

Blackmoore was ONE guy, and a traitor no less, planning to use the orcs to conquer. The story about those fights also makes clear that the Alliance had NO idea about the arenas, since they were part of the treasonous plan.The internment camps were the merciful option, because no sane leader would allow the Old Horde to go their merry way, and the only other option was to execute them.

Innocent people did die in the tree fire.

The internment camps, as planned, are probably the most humanitarian thing planned in all of warcraft. Yes, their owner was corrupt and did abuse the orcs, which was wrong. But every other invading force (heck, forces that just already occupy lands), is just put to the sword by the horde and alliance. But after the 2nd war, the alliance goes and makes a wellfare state effectively to keep the orcs alive. The Horde would have never extended to them the same courtesy. The last people the horde defeated were made into a road.

Never mind the fact that that guy tried to blame the Alliance Humans for the internment camps, when the actual human kingdom that created said camps was Lordaeron... you know, the kingdom that is mostly Horde-affiliated nowadays via the Forsaken.

It's quite hilarious how some of these Horde players keep blaming the Alliance for the internment camps... how do they not understand that Lordaeron, the kingdom that actually built those camps, is currently in the Horde?

This is a simple fact that should be easily understood via basic reading comprehension of the story. Blaming the Alliance for the internment camps is quite hypocritical, given how it was Lordaeron's, and thus the Forsaken's, idea.

[Feanoro]

It's pretty simple, @Varodoc. "The Horde can do no wrong" is the guiding principle of many posters here. Lore be damned, Blizzard's statements be damned, logic be damned, ANYTHING to exonerate fictional monster men repeatedly shown to be bloodthirsty, genocidal lunatics.

Repeatedly, the story shows disproportionate actions, with the Horde going straight to massacre for slaps on the wrist. Horde posters try to justify each rampage.

[Arlette]

The dude got massive flack back in MoP, despite being right.

No he really didn't. I remember many people talking about how he was right and praising him for being above the faction conflict and seeing the faction war for what it was regarding Pandaria.

He became even more and more popular as the expansion went along.