I think there are too many talent points

[pahbi]

Having 30 or 31 points per tree is way too much and leads to cookie cutter specs. And why isn't there a racial talent tree? 61 points split between three trees would work better.

I don't think there is any way to avoid cookie cutter specs.

Though I really like the idea of a racial talent tree.

For that matter, I would rather have a POE style ability tree for WoW and all classes use that 1 tree.

I think if that ever happened, about 5 million heads would collectively explode at the same time though. lol

[huth]

The real issue IMO is that it's impossible* to actually gauge the effectiveness of a + b + c against a + b + d.

One path might seem better, but who really knows for sure. Very few people theorycraft, and that leads to copying specs.

Personally I think this entire revamp was and is a colossal waste of time and resources. They should have spent it on something tangible, like Housing, or a second raid in this Tier. Literally anything else.

* without insane payout of time and effort

That's actually pretty easy. What's hard is doing it for all possible combinations. Comparing any two is no harder than it was before 10.0.

[Zyrinx]

That's actually pretty easy. What's hard is doing it for all possible combinations. Comparing any two is no harder than it was before 10.0.

This is what I meant. You can select the base talent without the power ups, which makes no sense.

[FelPlague]

Hmm do I want to go a ST build for this fight, or a cleave build or an AOE build. Guess what expansion this is from. SL or DF.

Hint, it’s both.

More choices is good, however having choices that give back what was taken away is not. We should have kept our abilities, with talents enhancing or altering the abilities. Not taking away what we have and giving it back as “a choice”.

If they were to give us the current talent trees we have now but with ENTIRELY new talents in every spot, we would still be in shadowlands for another 6 months, and people would be fucking screaming about ability bloat, the whole point is returning to how it used to be, you get your base class, and then gain talents as you level to define that. back in the old days you gained some base abilities while leveling, but most of your specifics came from talents, now almost all your stuff comes from talents, allowing for far more customization, so yeah, returning to the old talents we of fucking course were going to revert to a "base" scenario, we were not going to get our classes as they are now, and then an entire tree, that would be fucking abyssmal.

also even with, there is tons of new abilities/passive/etc in the talents, aswell as lots returning long since past.

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This is what I meant. You can select the base talent without the power ups, which makes no sense.

I am confused, you could literally do this exact same thing before, how is that a new problem?

[huth]

This is what I meant. You can select the base talent without the power ups, which makes no sense.

Any two builds, not any two talents.

[Niwes]

The real issue IMO is that it's impossible* to actually gauge the effectiveness of a + b + c against a + b + d.

One path might seem better, but who really knows for sure. Very few people theorycraft, and that leads to copying specs.

Personally I think this entire revamp was and is a colossal waste of time and resources. They should have spent it on something tangible, like Housing, or a second raid in this Tier. Literally anything else.

* without insane payout of time and effort

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No doubt, but that's what the overwhelming majority is going to do, that or just copy a build.

let me correct this for you:
No doubt, just copy a build, that's what the overwhelming majority is going to do.

which brings us back, to my first point, a page ago. which is EXACTLY, what you wrote above.
see here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53957204

what i tried to tell ppls was: the new talent trees offers forehand customization, choices and flexibility. in reality, a system CAN NOT be more „cookie cutter“ (if we call it so) than the new talent tree system. because since nearly no sane person can compare all the complex build outcomings between each other, EVERYONE and his grandma will solely follow premade builds, i.e. from sites like IcyVeins or Wowhead.

while in old talent system there „could existed“ some variations, because ppl directly saw the tradeoff between one talent or another, it is impossible for 95% of the playerbase to decide what they give up (or not) by reaching a specific talent (maybe a utility talent).

in short: the way the new talent trees are working, lead to the EXACT opposite what they should do.

[Coldkil]

"I don't want to spend time on choosing my playstyle because i don't know how my class works and i am just used to copy builds from websites": the thread.

Anyway, there's perfectly reasonable points around this. I can get how many feel overwhelmed or don't want to spend time on stuff they don't fully understand and find just not fun (btw, the reason why templates exist).

As other mentioned, the new talents serve the purpose to give all the toolkits directly to classes with a system that's manageable and expandable through expansions instead of giving thing and taking them away every two years for no reason at all.

In the end, it's something people will get used to and have a way to have minimal interaction with it of they so decide. To me it's hands down multiple time better than the MoP system where "meaningful choice" was actually "this os the best option and the other two are dead".

[mrgreenthump]

Problem with some specs is that all of their talent power is tied to last tier talents and/or pathing to them, reducing talent points wouldn't actually do anything towards reducing cookie cutter builds, it would just mean all the utility you can pick is less and you'd end up with more cookie cutter builds. So what that means, is that we need a talent tree redesigns as well as the point reduction at which point, wouldn't it just be better to improve and balance current talents to reduce cookie cutter builds?

With mainly playing Rogue and Mage for the whole time MoP talents were a thing, am glad they at least are gone. As a Mage for example, you almost never changed your talents, because most of the time every tier had a 10+% higher dps option or it gave nothing substantial or the shimmer row for example, which really wasn't an option at all was it?

[diller]

let me correct this for you:
No doubt, just copy a build, that's what the overwhelming majority is going to do.

which brings us back, to my first point, a page ago. which is EXACTLY, what you wrote above.
see here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53957204

what i tried to tell ppls was: the new talent trees offers forehand customization, choices and flexibility. in reality, a system CAN NOT be more „cookie cutter“ (if we call it so) than the new talent tree system. because since nearly no sane person can compare all the complex build outcomings between each other, EVERYONE and his grandma will solely follow premade builds, i.e. from sites like IcyVeins or Wowhead.

while in old talent system there „could existed“ some variations, because ppl directly saw the tradeoff between one talent or another, it is impossible for 95% of the playerbase to decide what they give up (or not) by reaching a specific talent (maybe a utility talent).

in short: the way the new talent trees are working, lead to the EXACT opposite what they should do.

For raiding there will always be a cookie-cutter spec because something will be objectively best, but raiding isn't everything in the game, and you can't argue that the new talent trees gives better flexibility than the previous ones (not as flexible as the original talent trees where you could be a real hybrid).

Also since you can now change your talents on the fly you can more easily adapt to certain encounters.

For me personally I wouldn't do a cookie-cutter build this time around since I can adjust my talent for mostly solo playing.

[VinceVega]

I love it.

Allready tried out tons of builds. Different for Mythic+, AoE, Raid, Open world and also just to try out what is more fun for me.

There will ALWAYS be cookie cutter builds. ALWAYS!!! for everything. It is you choice to use them or not. Other builds maybe not optimal but are still viable.

If it is to complicated for you use premade builds. Otherwise go ham.

The only thing this thread prooves is that Blizzard cannot make it right for everyone and someone always complains about stuff that was asked for by many for years.

[Zka]

Talent system has been reduced to ashes long ago, providing no useful choices in most cases for most specs.

Now they went the other way, providing a complex system that lets you play with several different builds. Yes, the major downside is that you can't optimize it without complex calculations, but most players don't actually need to play 100% optimal. The ones who need it will look up the calculated best builds and will use that.
I'm pretty sure that different playstyles (pvp, pve, 5mans, solo, etc) will require very different builds, which is a welcome change.

This new talent system is one of the very few positive and interesting ideas in retail recently.

[huth]

Yes, the major downside is that you can't optimize it without complex calculations, but most players don't actually need to play 100% optimal.

That's just straight-up wrong. The calculations haven't changed in complexity at all - what changed is the amount of calculations you have to do, which is now to great to be practical if you're just trying to brute-force it. It's not much of a change compared to the pre-MoP system, though. People just won't be simming all possible combinations anymore, only ones considered likely to be better. And just excluding non-throughput variations will already cut things down considerably.

[Nymrohd]

Blizzard in the past iterated heavily on expansions with heavy talent redesigns like MoP and Legion. I expect we will see a lot of balancing in these trees going forward. If they manage to keep to the design of no borrowed power and the only additional systems being tier sets/trinkets and interesting weapons/items were ilvl is usually enough to force those items out if not in the next tier then at least in the tier after, they have a couple of expansions to keep improving the system. It's nice to see a system that is meant to last and I think these trees can last at least 3 expansions.

[Sinte]

New talents is not what we wanted, thats for sure.

Now stuff we have had baseline since day 1 of the game. 18 or so years ago, is now removed and given as talents, to promote the illusion of choice. Most of the talents now are mandatory to get the class back to where it was before the patch. Don't like this bs at all. Talents should add to your class, not remove shit

Not at all,you are looking at it from a pretty dumb point of view. You dont need your entire toolkit for every dungeon,raid and even pvp. There are always bloat skills. This lets you avoid the bloat you dont want and dou le down on the things you want for the content youre about to do. Swapping is free and you have templates PER BOSS if you want to.

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let me correct this for you:
No doubt, just copy a build, that's what the overwhelming majority is going to do.

which brings us back, to my first point, a page ago. which is EXACTLY, what you wrote above.
see here: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post53957204

what i tried to tell ppls was: the new talent trees offers forehand customization, choices and flexibility. in reality, a system CAN NOT be more „cookie cutter“ (if we call it so) than the new talent tree system. because since nearly no sane person can compare all the complex build outcomings between each other, EVERYONE and his grandma will solely follow premade builds, i.e. from sites like IcyVeins or Wowhead.

while in old talent system there „could existed“ some variations, because ppl directly saw the tradeoff between one talent or another, it is impossible for 95% of the playerbase to decide what they give up (or not) by reaching a specific talent (maybe a utility talent).

in short: the way the new talent trees are working, lead to the EXACT opposite what they should do.

Lol, its really not that complicated. Stop assuming people are as stupid as you. You dont need to do calculations,youre not in a top10 guild. You can very much see what works for you and what doesnt,day to day.

[Niwes]

Not at all,you are looking at it from a pretty dumb point of view. You dont need your entire toolkit for every dungeon,raid and even pvp. There are always bloat skills. This lets you avoid the bloat you dont want and dou le down on the things you want for the content youre about to do. Swapping is free and you have templates PER BOSS if you want to.

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Lol, its really not that complicated. Stop assuming people are as stupid as you. You dont need to do calculations,youre not in a top10 guild. You can very much see what works for you and what doesnt,day to day.

aha.
ok.
thx for explaining.

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That's actually pretty easy. What's hard is doing it for all possible combinations. Comparing any two is no harder than it was before 10.0.

Sorry, but at this point in this discussion i have to ask this 2 questions:

- Did you ever really USED the new talent system in game and played around with it, really in game?
- What type of content and what content-level are you playing?

[agentsi]

I played a bit with the talent calculator and I didn't have to make any compromises whatsoever. I could get everything I wanted and have points left over. Not very interesting.

You're either not very good at the game, or playing a class/spec that has zero variance. As a warlock, I currently have 12 different templates for PvE M+, Raids, Leveling, and PvP. And I feel like I will probably need more.

[Coldkil]

You're either not very good at the game, or playing a class/spec that has zero variance. As a warlock, I currently have 12 different templates for PvE M+, Raids, Leveling, and PvP. And I feel like I will probably need more.

It's very class and spec specific. Some of them are much more streamlined than others or better, their toolkit is not as extended as others.

For example as Sub i have basically two builds, ST and aoe/cleave/m+ because all talents and spells used are there. And they overlap especially at the beginning, so playstyle doesn't really change much - you just focus on stuff that lets you do either more st or aoe.

Chances are that once theorycrafters have more experience on talents and the fights you can tailor builds that are encounter/dungeon specific, or that let you pick an utility over another, but i also assume they will all revolve around a single core template depending on the content (raid, m+, pvp).

Also, best build is only one. So many options will end up unused if they're not the best choice.

[huth]

Sorry, but at this point in this discussion i have to ask this 2 questions:

- Did you ever really USED the new talent system in game and played around with it, really in game?
- What type of content and what content-level are you playing?

I used to do high end raiding until Antorus. I no longer do, but still know how it works. I also understand how the comparisons work. Comparing any two builds is no harder than it was before. The main issue is combinatorial explosion that made the total number of possible builds go through the roof, not that Raidbots suddenly takes excessively long to sim any particular build. Note that many of these builds are largely identical aside from minor, non-throughput differences, such as taking CC1 instead of CC2. All this means is that we can't brute-force calculate the best build in a reasonable timeframe, but that's mostly just a waste of resources anyway.

So i'm going to have to ask: Do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Because it feels like you're just mouthing off to random people.

[glowpipe]

Not at all,you are looking at it from a pretty dumb point of view. You dont need your entire toolkit for every dungeon,raid and even pvp. There are always bloat skills. This lets you avoid the bloat you dont want and dou le down on the things you want for the content youre about to do. Swapping is free and you have templates PER BOSS if you want to.

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Lol, its really not that complicated. Stop assuming people are as stupid as you. You dont need to do calculations,youre not in a top10 guild. You can very much see what works for you and what doesnt,day to day.

I litteraly have swap talents to get multishot on my hunter. If im in my raid spec and want to run a old dungeon for mogs or mounts or whatever, i have to respec. How is that ok? Its pure bullshit that they removed baseline core abilities like this and put it as talents and there is just no way you can possibly try to defend this crapshoot

[Niwes]

I used to do high end raiding until Antorus. I no longer do, but still know how it works. I also understand how the comparisons work. Comparing any two builds is no harder than it was before. The main issue is combinatorial explosion that made the total number of possible builds go through the roof, not that Raidbots suddenly takes excessively long to sim any particular build. Note that many of these builds are largely identical aside from minor, non-throughput differences, such as taking CC1 instead of CC2. All this means is that we can't brute-force calculate the best build in a reasonable timeframe, but that's mostly just a waste of resources anyway.

So i'm going to have to ask: Do you actually have any clue what you're talking about? Because it feels like you're just mouthing off to random people.

yeah, ok. imo we reached a point, where any further discussion is just a waste of time. yours and mine. just let’s agree that we disagree. and that’s fine.