How is Dragonflight solving shortage of tanks and healers problem?

[nulian84]

Vote kicking jerks often works. Did that a few times in LFR let that person have another 50 min queue for next raid.

[Ashnazg]

I think it has to do with the lack of respect a lot healers and tanks get in many many groups while also being held to a much higher standard of skill then the DPS. People don't care anywhere as much if a DPS is playing poorly, but they will care a great deal for tank and healer issues.

Its not that people don't care anywhere as much about DPS performance, its that its nearly impossible to tell how well a dps is performing short of looking at the meter, which is only going to tell you how much they can pump, not how well they avoid damage, interrupt, or anything other than raw numbers (I am aware that details has it, but noone has the time to dig through all the subcategories of the meters). On top of that, their role is split between 3 people, so individual responsibility is diluted.

Moreover, whenever DPS fail at their roles, the extra strain doesn't go on the DPS, it goes on the healers (and to a lesser degree tanks), so both tanks and healers (especially healers!) have to stress out about group failures, whereas dps only have to worry about their individual failures.

[Nymrohd]

Its not that people don't care anywhere as much about DPS performance, its that its nearly impossible to tell how well a dps is performing short of looking at the meter, which is only going to tell you how much they can pump, not how well they avoid damage, interrupt, or anything other than raw numbers (I am aware that details has it, but noone has the time to dig through all the subcategories of the meters). On top of that, their role is split between 3 people, so individual responsibility is diluted.

Moreover, whenever DPS fail at their roles, the extra strain doesn't go on the DPS, it goes on the healers (and to a lesser degree tanks), so both tanks and healers (especially healers!) have to stress out about group failures, whereas dps only have to worry about their individual failures.

I'd say in M+ DPS failure goes directly and brutally to the tank. From 10+ if the dps fails mechanics (either doesn't avoid them or doesn't help when clearly needed) they usually will just die on the spot if it targets them. But if they fail to perform their task in dps, tank cooldowns run out and we have to frantically overextend (which means also change the rest of the pulls to make up for it) and if you pulled a bit ambitiously not counting on your dps being duds, you just go splat. The healer will panic but realistically there ain't much they can do to salvage things. Failure is increasingly binary the higher the key level in M+ quite unlike with raiding which is a war of attrition in failed pulls (and where you may keep going since no timer and you need the practice during progression) and ofc has no timer.

[Doffen]

I'll be healing...so...

Solved?

[Hibiki]

I yesterday completed "The azure vault" heroic dungeon full run without tank. I play hunter, my pet and rouge in party tanks all. We use a lot of CC on trash, and this was slower but smooth run. I think hunter should have 4-th spec for tanking, based on pets. This will sacrifice hunter dmg for strong tanking capability for pets, and more misdirection features and options.

[Lochton]

I commented much earlier in this thread but another solution for having Tanks and Healers sticking around would be to give them back the options they used to have? My own experience is that I stuck around on my Holy Paladin longer when I could carry a good output for playing in the world as well, having Shockadin was a GREAT tool and a good solution for keeping me wanting to play holy. Of course, that is just me.

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I yesterday completed "The azure vault" heroic dungeon full run without tank. I play hunter, my pet and rouge in party tanks all. We use a lot of CC on trash, and this was slower but smooth run. I think hunter should have 4-th spec for tanking, based on pets. This will sacrifice hunter dmg for strong tanking capability for pets, and more misdirection features and options.

Hunter should have a Pet Tank setup, and Rogue should have a dodge/Parry Tank setup for example but I do believe what Blizzard said as well, adding more tanks doesn't necessarily add more tanks to the queue.

[chrisisvacant]

This tired thread.

It's not a job for them to solve at this point. Players have to grow the hell up and diversify their playing experience. So so so very sad they can't just sit on a single character for 30 years and they might have to try something new, like tanking or healing, and put themselves up for the same trash talk they no doubt deal out to existing tanks and healers.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

I commented much earlier in this thread but another solution for having Tanks and Healers sticking around would be to give them back the options they used to have? My own experience is that I stuck around on my Holy Paladin longer when I could carry a good output for playing in the world as well, having Shockadin was a GREAT tool and a good solution for keeping me wanting to play holy. Of course, that is just me.

Healers and tanks have more damage tools now than they've ever had before in most cases?

Not sure what you mean here

[Jastall]

I commented much earlier in this thread but another solution for having Tanks and Healers sticking around would be to give them back the options they used to have? My own experience is that I stuck around on my Holy Paladin longer when I could carry a good output for playing in the world as well, having Shockadin was a GREAT tool and a good solution for keeping me wanting to play holy. Of course, that is just me.

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Hunter should have a Pet Tank setup, and Rogue should have a dodge/Parry Tank setup for example but I do believe what Blizzard said as well, adding more tanks doesn't necessarily add more tanks to the queue.

Blizzard could make every class tank and heal capable. If I don't want to play healer, I won't play healer, simple as. If my guildie doesn't want to tank, he won't tank. I really don't think lack of options is the problem either.

Personally even when pugging I haven't had many bad experiences as a tank. I only did it on alts up to like +12 so I admittedly never reached the sweatlands where some idiot will have a heart attack if you pull one mob too many, but oftentimes I didn't follow the precise Dratnos-approved route and the most I got was a passing comment to which I just replied to trust me and things worked out. Helps that most Shadowlands dungeons are fairly linear or intuitive in design, the only ones with annoying routing/skips are Necrotic Wake and Spires. And that generous timers across the board meant that not precisely getting mob count doesn't matter that much, unlike some BfA dungeons.

Prideful affix was another matter and I sure hope something like it doesn't come back, however.

[pahbi]

In my opinion, a lot of toxic behavior in mythic+ can be traced to the stress of not beating the timer and not getting loot.

I'd just remove the timer from mythic 0-10 and bump up the loot. The vast majority of people are just doing mythics for loot to help them raid anyways.

Of course there would be the occasional ass muffin that just has to have the biggest dick in the group, but I think removing the timer and bumping up loot would quell 75% of the stress folks feel doing mythics. In time, this would let groups just chill out, do their mythic, get their loot and get on with their day.

[Soikona]

I love tanking. It requires vastly more effort and attention than dpsing.

I can waltz into a raid, 1/2 pay attention, and do fine as a DPS. But as a tank I have to be on. I have to be fully present and not distracted. I have to know the fights well. I can't just "DBM will tell me" through the evening and expect to do OK, especially in late Heroic or any Mythic progression.

This is true for Healers as well. DPS is just less punishing. That's it. I love that about tanking. It's why I want to tank. But it's why a lot of people don't want to tank.

Strong disagree. I find tanking easier, way easier. Which is why I prefer to tank!

[Uko]

In my opinion, a lot of toxic behavior in mythic+ can be traced to the stress of not beating the timer and not getting loot.

I'd just remove the timer from mythic 0-10 and bump up the loot. The vast majority of people are just doing mythics for loot to help them raid anyways.

Of course there would be the occasional ass muffin that just has to have the biggest dick in the group, but I think removing the timer and bumping up loot would quell 75% of the stress folks feel doing mythics. In time, this would let groups just chill out, do their mythic, get their loot and get on with their day.

An easier option would be get rid of depleting keys. Its a double wammy of a punishment. Once you are over time you have not only wasted 45ish minutes of time on that key but you will have to spend another 45ish minutes on a lower key just to retry the one you failed on. Fail a 15 gg just try again or manually lower the key at the npc would breed a lot less toxicity than having one mouth breather waste an hour and half of your time just so you can try again.

[Bugg]

Is there an MMO (which has the tank-heal-dps trio) in which there is no shortage of tanks and healers?

For me tanking is much more stressful than dps-ing in m+, so for that I will always avoid it.

[craigw]

Arguably. I think healing is harder than tanking. Tanking becomes easy once you're past a very short learning curve where you get familiar with the routes and mechanics.
Healing never gets easier. Also healing in WoW is not even possible without addons like Vuhdo. Something that can't be said about tanking.

you most def can heal without vuhdo. server second mythic kills, and routinely time 25+ keys without using it.

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It gets infinitely easier as you're going upwards in keys as far as m+ goes. You simply can't take the avoidable damage people take in lower keys because that avoidable damage will outright murder you, so you can safely ignore people that stand in stuff because they're already dead if they do and there's nothing you can do about it.

A few select encounters get harder but overall it gets easier as you progress upwards. Tanks get better at mitigating damage, people get better at stopping casts and people get better at avoiding avoidable damage because it's not healable.

It's harder to heal +15s than the +25-26s I'm doing.



I don't use vuhdo and I've done +26 as a healer.

yeah same here. saying healing isnt possible without vuhdo is the dumbest shit ive read on here in a long time.

[Lochton]

Is there an MMO (which has the tank-heal-dps trio) in which there is no shortage of tanks and healers?

For me tanking is much more stressful than dps-ing in m+, so for that I will always avoid it.

Nope, all MMOs with the need for Tanks and Healers are lacking them.

[Chapel]

At the very least they could give the important roles a little bit more attention instead of giving it all to Hunters.

Hunters get things?

Been here since beta 03', and this is still just the cry from people who can't play their own class.

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So many people here are completely wrong. Of course it is blizzards fault as well, THEY design M+ and THEY have the ability to put in systems to help you.

- Implement tools so other people in your group can suggest routing like a proper ping system or a different way to show routing before the run starts. Not everyone wants to download X addons. If its there for everyone by design more people will use it and get accustomed to it. I too want to Tank sometimes but I absolutely cannot be bothered to learn so many routes. Its garbage design and blizzard does 0 to combat its issues.
- The Healer meta in M+ is dealing damage. Most people do not want to deal dmg of like 50+% of the dungeon. Its garbage design and again in the hands of blizzard to solve.
- M+ timers. As a DPS you have a lot less stress than Tanks and Healers from a M+ timer. If you fail as a Healer it is a wipe and the group might be dead. Its 100% your fault. Tank the same. Since the timer is so important, all the pressure is on them instead. If a DPS is suboptimal he still barely feels pressure. Again blizzards design fail with M+ timers.

I personally think that the biggest issues is the cancerous routing design in addition to the timer. Seeing blizzard answering with "M+ Seasons" so everybody starts at 0 shows how clueless they really are.

I think you are calling it right with the timers. If every +1 on a mythic just made the fights harder, without a timer, then this would solve the problem. Yes, it might take 15 more minutes to successfully clear a +18, than a +13, but if your tank and healer were even passable, it would still be a win. And it would have still been a challenge that was beat.

This would be a viable Win.

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After all, who wants to play a game with a bunch of five year olds throwing what amounts to a temper tantrum when the game doesn't go their way.

The old adage of 'herding cats' comes to mind every time someone asks me to tank any mythic.

[Celement]

Is there an MMO (which has the tank-heal-dps trio) in which there is no shortage of tanks and healers?

For me tanking is much more stressful than dps-ing in m+, so for that I will always avoid it.

The problem is the skill floor. While tanking is league's ahead the most easy role it has a early pass fail check same with healing .

Ironically dps has the highest skill cap but absolutely no skill floor...


I've said it before but if you had hard personal dps checks that others couldn't carry them through you would see the populations in low levels even out.

Ironically in higher levels the population reverses with meta dps being fought over in a sea of tanks and healers.

[pahbi]

An easier option would be get rid of depleting keys. Its a double wammy of a punishment. Once you are over time you have not only wasted 45ish minutes of time on that key but you will have to spend another 45ish minutes on a lower key just to retry the one you failed on. Fail a 15 gg just try again or manually lower the key at the npc would breed a lot less toxicity than having one mouth breather waste an hour and half of your time just so you can try again.

Yeah, no timer.

A couple players get loot, everyone else gets currency for buying gear, the key holder gets a new key, everyone gets items for their weekly loot chest, just for finishing the mythic.

Make Mythic 0-10 no stress mode, and even give folks access to the group finder in case someone drops.

Then make 11 onwards same ole thing its always been for those that want a challenge.

No stress would be a lot less toxicity, and less toxicity would hopefully eventually lead more folks to tank.

[Silvador]

How about giving something back for healing/tanking. Achievements, items, mounts, pers, etc.

[Perkunas]

I'd play a healer again if I didn't have to DPS in Mythic+ runs. I don't like doing damage as a healer personally.